new bodies have been found ....Beaucamp ligny

[Seadog]

Good man .................keep it up

Norman

[SiegeGunner]

We seem to be assuming that the remains being held at Arras comprise 15 'boxes', each containing the neatly discrete remains of one individual. If I remember correctly, the BL15 were actually extricated from the ground by less than archaeological methods and with essentially garden implements. I wonder how much of the delay and indecision is attributable to the remains being, to a greater or lesser extent, 'mixed up' ...

[deano]

The remains are held at France Area Office, Beaurains.

During the construction of a sewage soakaway, on the FIRST sweep of the diggers bucket, bones were spotted. The Gendarmerie were then called. Then CWGC notified, CWGC uncovered the rest of the bones.

15 partial to full skeletons were found in groups of 6,8 and one isolated skeleton. Those remains photographed were found relatively intact and there were further bones from cases 11 to 15 that were mixed by the diggers FIRST sweep. It appears however that these are just from cases 11 to 15 and with expert help it may be possible to reassemble these with their corresponding parts.

The remains have been seen and examined by whoever is to do any DNA testing. There is to be a meeting in London in December to determine which/if any, remains are to have DNA testing.

Statement from Colonel Geoffrey Norton of the York and Lancs. Regimental Association -

9/11/2012

'The Trustees of the former York and Lancaster Regiment are working closely with all those who need to be involved with possible identification of the remains of 15 members of the 2nd Battalion York and Lancaster Regiment who died on 18th October 1914 and which were discovered in 2009. After being buried unidentified for 95 years, it is important that all possible avenues are explored which is very time consuming and we, the Trustees, are quite satisfied that the aim to hold the reburial as near as possible to the centenary of their deaths is not unreasonable.'

That is how things now stand at the moment.

Dean.

[Seadog]

Thanks Dean that is the fullest explanation of the find and the proposed possibility of DNA profiling that we have had for the last three years.

Norman

[deano]

My images of the site from 2011.

[ianw]

Dean,

Many thanks for the information about the finding of the remains.

One would have thought that if any viable testing is proceeded on without delay that the work should be finished before the centenary of their deaths - obviously had the work been started earlier, this wouldn't have been an issue! It's only official foot-dragging that has made it into a possible issue. It is therefore essential to start work on any viable DNA traces as soon as possible. One would hope that the December meeting will give the green light to the commencement of the DNA ID work on at least some of the remains.

In any case, as regards the target burial date, many of us would regard obtaining any possible identities as more important than having the burials at any particular date in the future, no matter how auspicious.

As in the case of Fromelles, once any viable DNA is extracted, the remains can then be buried as an unknown and accorded any identity discovered latterly.

Does they mixing of some of the remains represent much of a problem from the point of view of DNA contamination?

Sincerely hoping that officialdom keeps us abreadst of what is happening from now on in.

[Seadog]

The news that the MOD is to consider the use of DNA in an attempt to identify the soldiers is indeed heartening. I have a feeling however that at the proposed December meeting despite there perhaps being a general agreement that this was likely to be successful in a number of cases the cost of such an exercise may prove to be a deterrent for reaching a decision to use the technique which has proved so successful in the Fromelles situation. It will then in my opinion necessary that we continue to lobby for a portion of the £50 million set aside for the 100^th Anniversary commemorations to be allocated to this particular case. It would be a great pity if the use of DNA is rejected purely because of the cost implications when there are sufficient funds available.

Norman

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... I have now identified the particular bee buzzing around in your bonnet ...

Wrong. (And there is nothing “buzzing around”).

Its not a case who / what nationality was identified at Fromelles, its who / what nationality wasn’t identified at Fromelles. As for what will happen with the “BL-15”, we shall see how that situation pans-out in due course.

On another tack, - you have previously tried to wind me up by making snide comments, and you failed. You will fail this time as well.

Tom

[Seadog]

REMEMBERANCE SUNDAY 11^Th NOVEMBER 2012

[ianw]

Its not a case who / what nationality was identified at Fromelles, its who / what nationality wasn’t identified at Fromelles.

Again, would you care to elucidate. Genuinely interested.

I would guess, probably not. Please prove me wrong. Within the "Fromelles" thread if you would prefer.

[Seadog]

That would certainly seem to be a more appropriate place for the discussion.

Norman

[ianw]

Norman,

Yes, you are quite right. This is an important thread. Apologies.

[Chris_Baker]

Just to report that my local MP has yet to respond to my email.

EDIT: took out the political party to which he is affiliated.

[Seadog]

Could just be Chris that they are awaiting a response from the MOD.

Norman

[SteveMarsdin]

Of more general note, this article on the CWGC and their sole exhumation officer appeared this week in" la voix du nord":

http://www.lavoixdun...-jna29b0n819880

You have to "subscribe" (it's free) to read the full article.

[Seadog]

No speaky French (Not very good at English either) translation required. On the subject of the Exhumation Officer it was good to read in post 303 that he was actively involved in the recovery of the remains and artifacts.

Regards

Norman

[SteveMarsdin]

Hi Norman,

This is the article in full, unfortunately I haven't time to translate it right now; he does mention the costs of DNA testing though (sample only)

Paul Bird, seul officier d'exhumation en France chargé des soldats des Première et Seconde Guerres mondiales

Par la rédaction pour La Voix Du Nord, Publié le 11/11/2012

ON EN PARLE 11 NOVEMBRE | Depuis les années soixante-dix, Beaurains est la base française de la Commonwealth War Graves Commission. C'est de là que sont gérés les quelque trois mille sites (cimetières et mémoriaux) que compte notre pays, dont près d'un millier rien que pour notre région.

La morgue du Commonwealth est basée à Beaurains. Paul Bird (à droite) en est l'officier d'exhumation.

C'est de là aussi que sont fabriquées les pierres tombales qui honorent les milliers de soldats morts lors des Première et Seconde Guerres mondiales. C'est aussi là que l'on trouve le seul officier d'exhumation pour toute la France.

Voilà un an que l'Anglais Paul Bird a été nommé. L'homme n'est pas un inconnu de la Commonwealth War Graves Commission. Cela fait vingt ans qu'il y travaille en tant que superviseur horticole. Son père, Roger, a été longtemps directeur des travaux et sa soeur Laura a également été employée au siège de Beaurains. Le Commonwealth, chez les Bird, c'est donc une histoire de famille. Et l'an passé, quand Julian Blake a décidé de quitter son poste d'officier d'exhumation, Paul Bird s'est positionné sur ce job unique en France. Totalement autodidacte, il s'est rapidement glissé dans son nouveau costume. Et une semaine après sa nomination, il a tout de suite été mis dans le bain avec l'exhumation d'un soldat dans l'Arrageois. Et depuis, il enchaîne les découvertes de corps. Paul Bird est en effet le seul habilité à exhumer les corps des soldats de la Première et Seconde Guerres mondiales. Et ce pour toute la France « même si 90 % des découvertes se font dans le nord de la France, confie Nelly Poignonnec, chargée de communication. Il faut savoir que 40 % des soldats morts au combat lors de la Première Guerre mondiale n'ont pas été retrouvés. En général, on fait, au minimum, une quinzaine de découvertes par an. »

Un corps : une énigme

Mais au fait, comment cela se passe-t-il ? Quelle est la procédure ? « Quand quelqu'un découvre des os humains, la police ou la gendarmerie est appelée. Ensuite, ils regardent ce qu'il y a autour. Si on retrouve des indices laissant à penser que c'est un soldat, on fait appel à notre officier d'exhumation. Mais attention, pas question d'entamer des fouilles sur tout le secteur. On est juste là pour faire des collectes et non des recherches. En quelques heures, notre travail est fait. S'il s'agit bien d'un soldat, on récupère les ossements ainsi que - si par chance il y en a - les effets personnels (insignes, armes, balles). » De retour à Beaurains, Paul Bird se rend à la morgue et se met à rédiger son rapport et reconstitue le squelette du soldat. Le rapport est ensuite envoyé au ministère de la Défense du pays d'origine du soldat. « Il faut savoir que 90 % des soldats que l'on retrouve sont d'origines britanniques.

Ensuite, c'est au gouvernement de définir si on poursuit les recherches pour identifier le soldat ou si on le classe dans la catégorie "inconnu". Cela dépend des pays car cela coûte cher. Un test ADN, c'est au minimum 300 euros. C'est ensuite à nous d'organiser la cérémonie. On essaye d'enterrer le soldat dans un cimetière proche de la découverte de ses ossements, si possible près de son régiment. » Bien sûr, la découverte de ces corps est liée à l'activité humaine. Qui dit champs de bataille, dit... champs. « Lorsque les agriculteurs travaillent leur terre, il arrive fréquemment que des ossements refont surface. Chez des particuliers, on intervient également comme dernièrement à Hénin-sur-Cojeul. Sur le tracé du canal Seine-Nord, on a également trouvé de nombreux corps. Si le sol est argileux, cela permet une bonne conservation des ossements et donc nous permet une meilleure identification. Le crâne et les doigts sont des éléments prépondérants pour identifier un soldat. L'hygiène aussi. Si la dentition est impeccable, il y a de grande chance pour que ce soit un soldat indien. Chaque corps est une énigme, à nous de recomposer le puzzle. » •

BENJAMIN DUBRULLE

Reproduced from La Voix Du Nord

[Seadog]

Some (mainly edited) points from the article. (Italics)

This (Beaurains) is also where we find the only exhumation officer throughout France.

A year ago the Englishman Paul Bird was appointed. For twenty years he worked there (CWGC) as a horticulture supervisor. His father, Roger, was construction manager and his sister Laura was also employed at the headquarters of Beaurains. Last year Julian Blake decided to leave his position as exhumation officer

It also acts as recently in Henin-sur-Cojeul. On the route of the Seine-Nord canal was also found many bodies. (Unedited)

It looks like Paul has both a very interesting and very demanding job, perhaps he should be able to call on others for assistance certainly when mass graves are found like the BL-15.although of course this may already be the case. Has anyone further information on the discoveries mentioned in the last paragraph, I realize of course that they may not be British in origin

The article also quotes the sum of 300 euros or £240 per DNA profile, so the BL-15 would cost approx £3750 which would hardly make a dent in the £50 million allocated to the 100th anniversary.

Norman

[frankyboy77]

Hi Norman

The old saying all quite on the newspaper front, I wonder if hes lost interest or been got at?

Will keep it going until I get an answer,

Regards

Larrett

[Seadog]

Persevere Frank and remember you have the news that the MOD are to consider the use of DNA profiling in December , plus the remarkable results that were obtained at Fromelles when the majority of the men were granted the dignity of a named headstone. I will be getting accused of being very boring about this but there is £50,000,000 allocated to the 100th anniversary so what better way to spend a miniscule part of this in the attempt to give some or all of the soldiers the respect that has eluded them for the past 98 years.

Regards

Norman

[Graham Smith]

I have today received a letter from my local MP stating that he has passed my 'concerns' onto the Sec of state for defence.

For info I also sent a copy of Normans suggested letter (Post # 255) to a number of like minded friends who have also forwarded similar to their MP's

Perhaps there is a little hope on the horizon?

Keep at it Norman

I herby pledge that I will stand the €300 for one of the DNA samples to be obtained from one of the 15. I wish I could do more but finances are restrictive.

There, I can do no more, but I stand by the above if required. (Dont tell the wife )

[Seadog]

Well done Graham (& Friends) I believe that it is important that those attending the meeting in London some time in December to decide whether DNA profiling is used are made aware of the strength of feeling regarding this matter

Norman

[ianw]

Well it seems that there are various communications winging about Westminster. This can only be a good thing and isn't yobbo ranting as some posters seem to think but just the genuine concerns of public spirited citizens.

There is some cash flying around for Great War related purposes so I really can't see why they shouldn't have a go. It seems to be a bit of a no brainer to me.

But I suppose we shouldn't underestimate the tendency of officials to be bloody-minded.

[Seadog]

True Ian but another important issue is that of the veil of secrecy surrounding the discovery of our soldier’s remains which in this day and age is ridiculous given that the finding of the BL-15 was reported in the French newspaper so any attempt to keep this from the UK public was thwarted from the start. I have also contacted CWGC in Beaurains regarding the reported finding of "many bodies" on the route of the Seine-Nord Canal (Post 318).

Norman

[ianw]

Yes, they just love their "secret squirrels".

But I agree their habit of not being forthcoming about the discovery of the fallen is profoundly annoying.