new bodies have been found ....Beaucamp ligny

[ianw]

Norman,

Yes, DC gives lip service to "the Power of DNA" but he also oversaw the destruction of the world admired Forensic Science Service - so it always comes down to the costs and the MOD doesn't want to spend money on dead Tommies.

Let's hope they accede to the pressure - but unfortunately I have my doubts.

[frankyboy77]

Hi Norman

Sorry I have been having problems with the computer ,I have just been reading my mail from you all.

I did manage to get a email of to Mr North *** Asking for a quick reply about the meeting, if he reply's, not holding my breath though.

I would like a reply before I go in Hospital next month , I will not be able to get about for a couple of months.

Mind you i will be able to write letters if things don't go right

Frank

[Seadog]

Frank sorry to hear that you are to spend some time in hospital and I am sure that we all share your desire to hear about the results of the meeting. I believe that you in particular and the rest of us are doing all we can to bring this to an acceptale conclusion and we will keep our fingers crossed!.

Best Wishes

Norman

[Seadog]

For information:

A very prompt reply from Peter Doyle, Secretary, All Party Parliamentary War Heritage Group to my request today for the latest information concerning the BL-15

"Thank you for your e-mail. I understand that a letter had been sent to the CWGC regarding this case, which was discussed in brief at our last meeting. It is my understanding is that Lord Faulkner is intending to look into this further, and I will let you know as soon as something else is heard".

The CWGC/MOD should now be fully aware of the concerns felt by many regarding the outcome of this case. I have also sent a similar new email to Jim Murphy MP who has tabled written questions on the subject and appended to both mails a link to the excellent newspaper article about his Grandfather from out friend Frank (Larrett)

Norman

[frankyboy77]

Hi Norman

His it time to get exited yet, Lord Faulkner getting involved, Should we hold out breath yet?

Just received a reply from Colonel Geoffrey North, the meeting his in the new year January now, He admits it his going on to long

he wants to be in our shoes? As does the powers at be .

Just a few words even to say Larrett his not one. As long as they do a DNA on them??.

I will rest in peace if this happens soon before October 2014, would be nice

Frank

P.S I mean sleep in bed

[Seadog]

Hi Frank from what you say it sounds like the Colonel (York & Lancaster) is adopting a much more reasonable and supportive tone in his reply to you as indeed he should. It could well be that the meeting has been put back due to the pressure now being applied. I still think that this case will have repercussions for the treatment of future finds hopefully in a positive way.

Best Wishes

Norman

[Seadog]

See below for the questions regarding the BL-15 submitted by Jim Murphy MP the Shadow Secretary of Defence and the subsequent responses.

Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what representations he has received on the identification of the human remains found at Beauchamps-Ligny in France in November 2009. [130052]

Mr Francois [holding answer 27 November 2012]:Since May 2010, the Ministry of Defence has received 34 representations from Members of Parliament, members of the public and one request for information under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 about the identification of the human remains found at Beauchamps-Ligny in France in November 2009.

Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what efforts his Department has made to identify the human remains found at Beauchamps-Ligny in France in November 2009. [130053]

Mr Francois [holding answer 27 November 2012]: The remains of the soldiers found at Beauchamps-Ligny in Northern France are with the Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC) in France, and Ministry of Defence officials in the Joint Casualty and Compassionate Centre are working with the CWGC and Regimental Associations to identify them.

Identification is currently focusing on documentary and forensic analysis, but DNA testing will be used if the remains recovered can be linked to suitable candidates from whom DNA can be obtained.

Norman

[SteveMarsdin]

Identification is currently focusing on documentary and forensic analysis, but DNA testing will be used if the remains recovered can be linked to suitable candidates from whom DNA can be obtained.

Norman

Sounds a bit more positive, Norman

[Seadog]

See below for the questions regarding the use of DNA and details of finds from 2005 submitted by Jim Murphy MP the Shadow Secretary of Defence and the subsequent responses.

Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what system of DNA matching his Department uses in seeking to identify human remains prior to burial. [130054]

Mr Francois [holding answer 27 November 2012]: The Ministry of Defence uses external contractors to conduct DNA matching and they use mitochondrial sequencing and Single Tandem Repeats on the Y-chromosome

.

Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many people have been identified as deceased UK armed forces personnel following the discovery of human remains in each year since 2005. [130055]

Mr Francois [holding answer 27 November 2012]:The number of people identified as deceased UK armed forces personnel following the discovery of human remains in each year since 2005 is shown in the following table:

IDENTIFIED (1)

2005 32

2006 20

2007 17

2008 24

2009 24

2010 14

2011 08

2012 07

MULTIPLE (2)

2005 19

2006 00

2007 11

2008 08

2009 11

2010 11

2011 00

2012 00

(1) Confirmation as UK personnel did not necessarily happen in the same year as the remains were found.(2) Multiple covers remains recovered from aircraft crash sites where there were several casualties and additional fragmentary remains have been buried together in an existing grave without being linked to a named crew member

Note: "Identified" means as British not by name.(My note)

Norman

[Seadog]

Email reply to Jim Murphy MP following receipt of the above:

Very many thanks for your efforts in this matter this is much appreciated. I understand that the meeting to be held by the MOD in order to decide whether DNA profiling will be used for the 15 British soldiers has been put back to some time in January, This I believe is a good sign for the MOD must now be aware of the strength of feeling from the public as regards this case. I am sure that this case will be a watershed in the use of DNA to attempt identification of our soldiers in particular those from WW1 and I have a feeling that frankly the MOD would rather just bury these men as unknowns without any publicity and subsequently without the public having any idea of just what is going on.

This may sound extreme but it is what is happening now with the unacceptable time period between discovery and burial plus the total lack of any press releases here in the UK when our countrymen are found on the WW1 battlefields as they will be for the foreseeable future. What was good enough for the Australians at Fromelles must also be applied to our soldiers for anything less is not acceptable. Perhaps you will be kind enough to inform me of the decision made by the MOD in respect of the BL-15 when it is available.

Norman

[frankyboy77]

Hi Norman

It looks as though its going some way at long last, I have a cousin at Little Hampton he his from the male side of the family, he has a son as well as a daughter,

the son as a son as well, I sorry to say that Six are from Larrett's Daughters I was informed that we on the female side carry our fathers gene,

dare I say the grandchildren are all in our seventy's,we might make to 2014 we hope?.

If you think that a letter from us to Jim Murphy MP will help we can get that of before Xmas??

Frank

[Seadog]

Hi Frank, the situation with Jim Murphy MP is that he will be only too pleased to put any further general questions to the MOD as he has already done of his own volition but as he states in one of his emails,

“Parliamentary convention only allows me to act on behalf of those individuals living within my own constituency. It is therefore not possible for me to make representations on your behalf to the MoD on the specifics of the situation. I would encourage yourself and others to continue to ask questions of the MoD via your MPs”

My own feeling is Frank that we have done about as much as possible to bring this case to an acceptable conclusion but having said that there would be no harm in letting Jim Murphy know how both you and your family feel about the case so this is the contact email:

JIMMURPHYMP@parliament.uk

Best Wishes

Norman

[Chris Noble]

Finally, a reply from my local MP, Alec Shelbrooke, Elmet & Rothwell.

Just the quote from the Minister of State for Defence and announced to the House:

"The remains of the soldiers found in Northern France are with Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC) in France, and the Ministry of Defense officials in the Joint Casualty and Compassionate Centre are working with the CWGC and Regimental Associations to identify them.

Identification is currently focussing on documentary and forensic analysis, but DNA testing will be used if the remains recovered can be linked to suitable candidates from whom DNA can be obtained."

I Hope this is useful to you

Alec Shelbrooke

Apologies if any of the above statement has been replicated.

I just thought I would add this as the response from my own local MP.

Bottom line is, we need to bring our lads 'Home.'

Best wishes to all.

Chris.

[Seadog]

Well done Chris at least the MOD now have some idea of the strength of feeling surrounding both this and subsequent cases.

Regards

Norman

[frankyboy77]

Hi

Norman /Chris

All good news to our lot (family).

At least its been announced in the House, very good news, Getting our sleeves rolled up for DNA!!

Regards

Frank

[Seadog]

If we do not get proper dignified treatment for the BL-15 and subsequent similar discoveries then it will not be for the lack of trying by everyone who has contributed..

Happy Christmas to you Frank and all of your family

Norman

[glosterman]

See below for the questions regarding the BL-15 submitted by Jim Murphy MP the Shadow Secretary of Defence and the subsequent responses.

Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what representations he has received on the identification of the human remains found at Beauchamps-Ligny in France in November 2009. [130052]

Mr Francois [holding answer 27 November 2012]:Since May 2010, the Ministry of Defence has received 34 representations from Members of Parliament, members of the public and one request for information under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 about the identification of the human remains found at Beauchamps-Ligny in France in November 2009.

Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what efforts his Department has made to identify the human remains found at Beauchamps-Ligny in France in November 2009. [130053]

Mr Francois [holding answer 27 November 2012]: The remains of the soldiers found at Beauchamps-Ligny in Northern France are with the Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC) in France, and Ministry of Defence officials in the Joint Casualty and Compassionate Centre are working with the CWGC and Regimental Associations to identify them.

Identification is currently focusing on documentary and forensic analysis, but DNA testing will be used if the remains recovered can be linked to suitable candidates from whom DNA can be obtained.

Norman

Norman,

Well done in getting the answers, but I am do not share the optomism of you / others over the answers. They will have been carefully worded and although published in HANSARD - The Parliamentary Record, very few people other than politicians and political students read that publication

Unfortunately there is no commitment by the Minister to provide additional resources (people or money) to progress this work (we have seen the earlier reponses over MoD/JCCC proprities) Even the apparent commitment to undertake DNA testing states

"DNA testing will be used if the remains recovered can be linked to suitable candidates" (my emphasis).

this gives the MoD a get out cause, simply by stating there is no close enough relative, or the recovered remains are not suitable for comparison / sampling.

I hope I am wrong but....

Kevin

[Seadog]

We shall see, but as I have said many times before to do nothing is NOT an option. I see no more important subject than this one related to all those who have an interest in the Great War. If nothing is done about using the latest techniques to attempt identification of the found soldiers both now and in the future then we can kiss goodbye to any chance of our countrymen being granted the dignity and respect of a named grave. That is a prospect which should appall anyone who professes an interest in the First World War and the way that this country treats those who have made the ultimate sacrifice on our behalf. If anyone should have any doubts about the way that the discoveries are treated by the authorities then perhaps they should read this from our friend and member Paul Reed about a similar case in 2001. Just imagine if the case quoted by Paul happens in the future, without DNA profiling then the end result would be the same, that is a row of graves with "Known Unto God" on the headstones.

Link

http://www.battlefie...int_du_jour.htm

Norman

[deano]

I appreciate that for DNA, 'suitable candidates' are needed. The work that Melvyn Pack has done really needs to be seen to appreciate the number of family's/relatives he has found for the 15, he has a 'Ligny' tree on Ancestry, although you need an invite to view it. I myself have actually spoken on the phone to a reative of one of the 15 who I put in touch with Mel. So I think there wouldn't be any shortage of 'suitable candidates', plus, a lot of the work to find them has been done.

[Seadog]

Thanks Dean for reminding us of the excellent work Melvyn Pack has already done in tracing the possible relatives of the soldiers and which he has supplied to the MOD. I do not want to “put words in his mouth” but I am sure that he undertook this not inconsiderable task because he felt that here was case worthy of such efforts because of the number of soldiers found and the historical evidence surrounding the finds. This is why this case is so important for we may not get a better set of circumstances which combine to offer a reasonable chance of naming some if not all of the soldiers. Mind you this fact should have been glaringly obvious to the MOD who have to all intents and purposes done absolutely nothing in this case now entering its fourth year. I trust that the hopefully independent experts who will present data regarding the possibility of obtaining DNA from the fallen will come to the conclusion that this is possible and then frankly the MOD will have no further excuses to prevaricate even further. I would direct members to Post 384 which details a total of 146 individual sets of human remains from both WW1/WW2 found and identified as British since 2005, I wonder just how many of them have the dignity of a named headstone, I bet very few.

Regards

Norman

[KevinBattle]

Perhaps a slightly different take on the

MOD who have to all intents and purposes done absolutely nothing in this case now entering its fourth year

would be that PRECISELY because NOTHING was done to bury these remains a lot sooner as "Known Unto God"'s is that it NOW allows the dignity of Names to be possibly linked to some if not all of these remains.......

Had they done "something" this would have been done and dusted with little opportunity of identification.

At least that is a "get out" excuse that they can use to save face when identities are confirmed.......

[Seadog]

It’s not just this case though Kevin is it, how about the last reported figure of 40 such cases or individuals (we know not which) that are still outstanding for action, do you really believe that hanging on to all these is actually a positive move by the MOD?. Worth considering as well are all those finds that we do not know about as the MOD refuses to issue any press releases which would put such information into the public domain.

Norman

[Seadog]

Not directly connected with this topic but I think an example of the fact that there is a vast pool of money floating around when all we hear from the UK MOD is, lack of resources, underfunded and an inability to treat our soldiers in manner which they so obviously deserve. What has brought this on I hear you say, well it’s the news that a memorial garden is to be constructed in London funded primarily by the Government of Flanders near the Palace and which is intended to be as the blurb states:-

”Your help will allow British people, especially school children and people who are unable to travel to the continent, to pay their respects to their war heroes in London. The project has already become the catalyst for similar garden projects in France, Germany and Belgium”

Note the “unable to travel to the continent”; I understood that £50M of British taxpayers money was intended for just such a use. Here is the best bit, the garden will cost £500,000 and the fund is £140.000 short at this time. A pity that just a small part of this cash was not allocated to the attempt to give the dignity of a name to the BL-15 and other suitable cases, now that would really fit the purpose of this “garden” as again stated on the web site:-

“The new garden will be a unique opportunity not only to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the start of the Great War but also to thank the British people for their sacrifice in liberating our country”.

Now that would be a real "Thank You" from the Belgian people

Details

http://www.memorial2014.com/

A separate thread on the memorial

http://1914-1918.inv...opic=188933&hl=

Norman

[frankyboy77]

Hi Norman

Tried a differant tact contacted, Parliement to see if anything was a foot reply as attached

I thought it might give us a new light , no joy (same o same o )

Frank

HCInfo <HCINFO@parliament.uk>

.

Dear Mr Wood

Thank you for contacting us.

I have not been able to find any recent announcements about this case in the Commons, and so cannot confirm the internment plans that you have heard about.

You mention that you have already contacted some MPs. Can I encourage you to contact your own local MP and ask that he or she raise your concerns with Ministers on your behalf?

You have not given your address and so I am not able to confirm the name of your local MP. You can, however, find your MP’s name by entering you full postcode into the box at: http://findyourmp.parliament.uk/ Clicking on the name should bring up their direct email and telephone number. I would recommend asking for an appointment to meet with your MP so that you can explain the situation fully.

Your MP is your representative in parliament and can use various methods to obtain information for you. More information on what you MP can do is available at: http://www.parliament.uk/about/mps-and-lords/members/what/

I very much hope he or she will be able to help you.

Best wishes,

Jean Fessey

House of Commons Information Office

[Seadog]

Stick with it Frank we shall see what happens at the January meeting of the MOD and the DNA experts. The decisions taken at that meeting will have repercussions far beyond the BL-15 and in my opinion will set the pattern for all subsequent discoveries where there is the possibility of using DNA profiling to attempt identification of the fallen. I must admit that I can see no more important issue related to the Great War and the way we as a nation treat our fallen soldiers existing at this time.

Best Wishes

Norman