new bodies have been found ....Beaucamp ligny

[ianw]

Difficult not to get the impression that the powers that be are horrified by the prospect of DNA techniques being used on a widespread basis and of the costs that would result.

The staff resources available at the MOD are indeed woefully small and it is not surprising that they take the line of least resistance and find cases easier to deal with when the casualty is either immediately identifiable or alternatively is guaranteed to be unidentifiable.

Sue Raftree gave some of her valuable time to film with the BBC meeting the relatives of Captain Pritchard H.A.C who happily was immediately identified when found at Bullecourt by artefacts with him. He will be buried with no little ceremony in 2013 and the great and the good will no doubt rightly be there in force. This will be a great event - but the lack of progress for the BL casualties is in very stark and depressing contrast. They deserve much much better.

I agree with Norman that a small part of the 1914 largesse could be very usefully diverted to speed work on the BL identifications - but I can't help feel that any sort of success with these casualties on top of the fantastic results at Fromelles would be embarassing to officialdom and more fully let the DNA genie out of the bottle. Hence their reticence to do anything to show the Fromelles I.D success to be anything other than a unique one-off - which it patently wasn't.

Good luck to everyone fighting to give the identities back to men who made the ultimate sacrifice for their country.

[PBI]

I will be writing to my M.P. Henry Smith,and i will see what he has to say on the matter.

[Seadog]

Thanks Russ and the same to Chris Baker for creating the excellent page on his website which will be of great help.

If you missed it here it is:

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/research/index.php/what-is-happening-to-the-beaucamps-ligny-15/

Norman

[Seadog]

PBI (Russ) has allowed me to post the first response received from his MP. It does seem very positive (unlike my attempt) and I hope that other members with be motivated to do the same.

Norman

I am also grateful for your bringing to my attention the matter of 15 British soldiers From the First World War whose remains were discovered in Beaucamps-Ligny, France in November 2009. Like you I am appalled that the Ministry of Defence have apparently so far not made serious efforts to formally identify them. Just because almost a century has passed does not diminish their brave service to our country. Consequently I will write to the Secretary of State for Defence regarding this matter conveying our concern and seeking answers. When I receive a response I will be back in contact.

Henry Smith MP

Crawley Constituency

[Seadog]

A bit long-winded (Really I hear you say!) letter sent to all Four of Bristols MPs today tried to send to the PM but limited to 1,000 characters only..

Ref: 15 BRITISH WW1 SOLDIERS FOUND IN FRANCE 2009

May I bring to your attention the following in the hope and expectation that you will be able to influence the MOD to address the situation as a matter of urgency and to use whatever means they have to attempt to provide names to the soldiers so that in death they are given the dignity which sadly has so far eluded them.

The Facts

1.0 In November 2009 in the village of Beaucamps-Ligny, France building work exposed the human remains of 15 WW1 soldiers deemed to be British on the evidence of artifacts found with the remains.

2.0 The soldiers are quite possibly from the York & Lancaster Regiment which fought in the area during 1914, the first year of the war.

3.0 In this case it is probable that the men are from the original “Old Contemptibles”, the regulars of the BEF sent to France in 1914.

4.0 The finding of the remains was covered in some French newspapers but apparently the MOD who is responsible for such press releases in the UK did not do so.

5.0 The remains are now with the Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC) at their office in Arras, France, where apparently they have been since 2009

6.0 Researchers have narrowed the pool of possible identifications down to a level which would provide the opportunity for DNA matching to be used as it was so successfully with the 200+ Australian soldiers found in the mass grave at Fromelles, the majority of whom have now been identified. This list has been provided to the MOD.

7.0 Despite numerous requests to the MOD for information as to the current situation no such information has been received and sadly there does seem to be total reluctance on their part to divulge any details of any of the number of cases outstanding which were reported in 2011 on a radio programme as standing at 40 which have no doubt increased by now.

8.0 There is in my opinion and that of others that a major problem exists with the unit based in Gloucester whose function it is to investigate the human remains found on the battlefield prior to handing them to the CWGC for burial in a War Cemetery.

Many individuals have written to their MPs on this subject with little success save the stock answer from the MOD which is repeated year after year. This subject has now been brought into sharp focus by the 100^th Anniversary of the start of WW1 in 2014 plus the announcement that a sum of £50m is to be made available in respect of this anniversary. I would suggest that a part of this sum should be allocated to the task of the attempted identification of the 15 soldiers by perhaps commissioning the independent experts who did such good work with the Australians at Fromelles. Not forgetting that there are many other cases awaiting action by the MOD but the case of the 15 would seem to give the best chances of success and will be a superb example for the 100^th Anniversary that we as a country still care for those who gave their lives in this “War to end all Wars” even after the passage of 100 years.

We are getting nowhere with this case at present and if nothing is done who knows just how long our soldiers will remain in wooden boxes on a shelf in France. I am sure that you will give the above the serious consideration that it so richly deserves and I look forward to a response in due course.

More details

http://www.longlongt...camps-ligny-15/

Yours truly,

PS Please copy if you so wish

Added

Also sent to:-

Eric Ollerenshaw MP - Lancaster

Paul Blomfield MP - Sheffield

Clive Betts MP - Sheffield

David Blunket MP - Sheffield

Meg Munn MP - Sheffield

Angela Smith MP - Sheffield

Nick Clegg MP Depury Prime Minister - Sheffield

Jim Murphy MP - Shadow Defence Secretery

Nigel Adams MP - Selby & Ainsty

Hugh Bailey MP - York Central

Andrew Jones MP - Harrogate & Knaresborough

Anne McIntosh MP - Thirsk, Malton & Filey

[frankyboy77]

Seadog Norman

I have been reading you comment Posted today

A warning today from ####### let it rest any comments keep to myself, the burials are on the 100 year ie 20 /10/2014.

Any reactions Gentlemen

Larrett

[Seadog]

Can you explain a bit more Frank?.

Norman

[Chris Noble]

I will too once again contact my local MP.

Many thanks also to Chris Baker for the creation of the web page.

Best wishes to all.

Chris.

[Seadog]

Thanks Chris, it is my belief that the 100th Anniversary in 2014 has given us additional leverage and the more people that contact their MP the better, to do nothing is not an option.

Regards

Norman

[frankyboy77]

I received a phone call today he thought I had step! to far requesting more information on the 15 bodies, the bodies were not complete?

So they did not think their could be a DNA test it would be to expensive.

What I want to know his there only me bothered about the 15, what about the rest of 14 family's??

so it would be better to just (KNOWN only to GOD )!! .

I don't feel that way and never will, I was brought up with my grandmother and I know how she felt ....

Larrett

[Seadog]

Please more specific Frank, a phone call from who? If this is an attempt at a fob-off then we need to know. Whatever the reason for the phone call we will not stop and will keep up the pressure on the authorities.

Norman

[frankyboy77]

Norman

Colonel YORK & LANCS

Would that help you No name no pack drill I think was the saying. He was going to keep me informed.

But i think he relied on some one else to tell me?,

Will that help you ? Norman I'arnt putting it writing at this time until I change my phone number **

Larrett

[Seadog]

Frank this is getting better by the day, I reckon these people are rattled and now they are on the back foot we must keep up the pressure. I will assume for the sake of argument that the person who contacted you was from the Regimental Museum and has been briefed by the MOD. What a shower of incompetents these people are turning out to be, You should inform your MP of the conversation ASAP and add that you are not impressed by the information coming by a phone call for which there is no transcript for future reference and that you insist that the information so relayed to you is repeated in writing, As for the bodies not being complete that seems somewhat at odds with these few extracts from France.

An excavator driver who was making a hole for sewage works for council housing struck the skull of one of the soldiers of the York and Lancaster Regiment with his blade, the mayor Frédéric Motte told AFP, confirming a report in the daily La voix du Nord.

One body was found with his water bottle in his hand and a pipe lying near the other hand, said the mayor, who added that coins, clasp knives and toothbrushes had also been found.

A water-bottle, two, pipes and a toothbrush were also found, as well as a drummer's badge. Motte also comments: "British soldiers all had very good teeth, something which was observed at Fromelles."

If then the remains are such that it is not possible to extract DNA then why are they not buried in a war cemetery instead of being stored somewhere, sounds very much like an excuse to me.

Keep it up Frank

Norman

[frankyboy77]

Norman

Has requested passed it to my MP Clive Betts for his prowess if that's the right word,

will keep you informed (re:- any cake files).

Frank

[ianw]

Am I right in my interpretation that the MOD plan is to bury the remains as unknown Yorks & Lancs on 20.10.14 on the centenary of their death?

If so, this is totally unacceptable as the "closed" nature of the group of dead makes the application of DNA ID techniques reasonably likely to secure at least some identifications.

If a group of present day soldier's remains were lost in say Afghanistan and the found 5 years later, would not DNA ID techniques be used if required? No difference in my opinion.

Perhaps we should ask the CWGC to confirm what is being planned - though of course the CWGC have no responsibility for seeking to establish identifications.

[SiegeGunner]

Am I right in thinking that other remains identified by kit as Y&L of the same vintage were found in Beaucamps-Ligny a year or two before the 15 turned up, and were buried as unknown Y&L? If context and history suggest that those remains must also be 'in the frame' to be some of the known-to-be-missing 30+ Y&Ls, there would inevitably be calls for them to be exhumed and included in a DNA exercise involving the 15. That, I suspect, may be the sticking point.

[ianw]

Yes, I agree that the MOD is facing a complex (and potentially expensive) can of worms here. This would explain their desire to get the remains buried and stifle debate.

Disappointing if a currently serving or former officer of the regiment is complicit in this sort of activity.

But I would have to admit that my understanding of what is happening here is partial and possibly faulty so I would welcome some clarification.

[beardwebster]

Have just written to my MP, Penny Mordaunt, Portsmouth North. Will post if l get a reply

Alan

[Seadog]

Ian (Post 265) as you say Post 260 from Larrett does seem to suggest that the 15 sets of remains will be buried presumably as unknowns on the 20^th October 2014, five years after they were found. Members will draw their own conclusions about this. The good thing is that they are still with so we will await any responses from the MPs etc. On the subject of the 14 others perhaps their relatives are not members of this forum and may for all we know have been treated as badly as Frank was by being rung up and told that even if his Grandfather was one of those found that the MOD will not deign to investigate any further and will ignore the superb results obtained for the Australians at Fromelles by the use of DNA matching.

Norman

[keithmroberts]

Does anyone know whether potential relatives have been traced and contacted? That would surely be the key step that would pressure ministers to allocate resources. Fromelles surely only worked because of the dedication shown in tracing relatives who could provide DNA samples from the living.

Keith

[Seadog]

Keith this from Post 78 by our member MelPack dated 29th November 2009.

"Due to the fact that I am possessed of such irrational suspicions, I have already established the genealogy for the 32 missing soldiers and have contacted a number of the men's direct relatives. I am encouraging the relatives to engage in suitable lobbying to ensure that the MoD/CWGC reach the right decision".

I reckon the MOD never had any intention of doing anything to ID the remains of the 15, just wait for so long that nobody would remember what happened, hence no original press release and a wall of silence since.

Norman

[keithmroberts]

That would seem to be a key argument, and one that needs to be repeated in each contact with the powers that be.

Thanks for pointing it out.

Keith

[Seadog]

No Problem Keith, all the hard work was done by MelPack and I also believe that his research was forwarded to the MOD at about the same time three years ago. Whilst we debate this particular case we must not lose sight of the large number of other cases still outstanding one of which is the 6 British Soldiers found in the area of Comines-Warneton in the period 2008-2010 who remain unburied according to the announcements of such events now made by the CWGC. That still leaves a large number of other human remains awaiting some sort of action which I am sorry to say the MOD are unable or unwilling to expedite in a timely and proper manner.

Norman

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Keith this from Post 78 by our member MelPack dated 29th November 2009.

"Due to the fact that I am possessed of such irrational suspicions, I have already established the genealogy for the 32 missing soldiers and have contacted a number of the men's direct relatives. I am encouraging the relatives to engage in suitable lobbying to ensure that the MoD/CWGC reach the right decision". ...

Just to clarify – does this mean that there already exists a line of communication with people who can be established to be relatives of some of the soldiers found at Beaucamp Ligny and that those people have signified willingness to take part in DNA testing ? If so, then has this been made absolutely clear to the MoD ?

My understanding of the CWGC’s position, from recent discussions with them regarding a loosely connected matter, is that they have no authority with regards to the specific identity of remains and that they have to follow guidance from the MoD.

Tom

[Seadog]

Hi Tom, I am unable to answer your question in detail although I do understand that Melpack did forward the full details of his research to the MOD in 2009 following which it would be their responsibility to act on that information should they have decided to undertake DNA matching. Perhaps MelPack will be able to confirm this. As for the CWGC I agree with your understanding but let us remember that the CWGC have a dedicated Exhumation Officer based in Arras whose sole task it is to supervise the excavation of discovered human remains and by doing so attempt to ascertain any identification that is possible. For example according to the information we have the remains of the 15 are still in France and as I have already stated the MOD unit is in the UK so there must be a level of investigation being performed by the CWGC.

Norman