new bodies have been found ....Beaucamp ligny

[Seadog]

Frank that is excellent work by all concerned and I very much hope that the pressure will get things moving or at least some valid explanation for the delay and not the usual sad platitudes. There is something badly wrong here Frank with the pious wringing of hands from the PM and the real world where 15 of the British Old Contemptibles languish in boxes on some shelf in the MOD. Perhaps those officials who can influence the matter will put their money where their mouths are and actually do something. We must remember that since the 15 were found many other human remains have been discovered and to my knowledge have not yet been given the common decency of burial in a War Cemetery which is the least they deserve in my view.

The Article in the Sheffield Star

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/local/sheffield-grandson-s-anguish-over-delay-identifying-heroes-1-5077109

Wishing you all the luck

Norman

[Chris_Baker]

I've just written to my MP. Three years without any clear public statement of progress is shoddy.

[Seadog]

Thanks Chris.

Norman

[peterhogg]

Well done. I hope we see some action on this issue.

[frankyboy77]

Norman All

By the way also contacted MOD Freedom Of Information:- Requesting On how and why, information is not been made free instead of a cover up ,as it seems to me

I was tought this Country was free of this, not a big cover up, as most other country's

if you want to know somthing just ask?

(Will any one visit me in JAIL )

Frank

[Seadog]

Frank I was naive enough make a FOI request regarding the number of human remains awaiting some action by the MOD. It came as no surprise to me when this was totally ignored. I sincerely believe that there are major problems with the unit that is supposed to attempt ID of our soldiers and that all the prevarications and silly excuses are an attempt to hide what is actually happening (or not in this case). Given that the unit is in a mess and is unable to allocate adequate resources to what is in my opinion the most important aspect of the Great War at present why have the MOD not commissioned one of the professional organizations in order that the backlog can be expedited in a reasonable timescale. I am not aiming any criticism at the individuals at the "sharp end" but unless something is done then the backlog will just keep on growing and the thought of our soldiers stored in some cupboard at the MOD frankly disgusts me as I believe it should all right-minded people and in particular those who have an interest in and study the conflict.

Regards

Norman

PS Already baking a large cake containing a file!

Added:

For members new to this topic please see Post 211 which quotes a radio programme broadcast in November 2011 as there being 40 sets of or partial sets of human remains awaiting attempts at ID presumably from the two world wars. Bear in mind that these remains continue to be found so what the current total is one we can only guess at.

[frankyboy77]

Norman

At least some one thinks, the same way as me

(and can bake a cake as well) MORE than ONE of you

Frank

[Seadog]

Rest assured Frank that I have no doubt that a majority of those who have either viewed or contributed to this topic share our sentiments. Of course as we near the 100th anniversary of the start of the war then these aspects of the conflict should hopefully gain more attention. Certainly on next Sunday 11th November as we remember all those who gave their lives for this country we should also remember those who repose in storage waiting for that same country to give them the decency of the chance of a name and even if this is not possible then a proper dignified burial in a war cemetery with their comrades, they deserve nothing less than this from us.

Regards

Norman

[J Banning]

The delay in this and many other cases is due to the large workload placed on Sue Raftree and her small staff at the Joint Casualty and Compassionate Centre (MOD). Along with historic cases from WW1 & WW2 she deals with the current casualties sustained in Afghanistan. Understandably, there is more emphasis on the latest cases. Sadly, hers is just one of many small departments within the MOD that is underfunded.

Incidentally, I have spoken at length with a good contact at the CWGC based at Beaurains and have suggested it would be a good idea for the Commission to release some sort of statement. The silence by the authorities over the past three years has been ill advised and has led to all sorts of wild speculation on this and other forums. A simple statement on the CWGC website would seem to be a good way of updating all interested parties - even if there is no news as such.

[Seadog]

Thanks Jeremy, the CWGC can play an important part in disseminating information about the finds but surely not about the inaction by the MOD? The Afghan card has been played, trouble is the last time an excuse was made it down to the situation at Fromelles so what next? The inescapable fact is that based on what we know or are allowed to know the department responsible is not fit for purpose, due not to the dedication of the individuals involved but to the total mismanagement shown by some incompetent at the MOD who themselves hid behind a fog of non-information and a total reluctance to answer any reasonable request for information. What other conclusion can we come to, given the known facts? Sobering to consider that if this state of affairs continues who knows what number of our soldiers etc will remain on some dusty shelf somewhere in the MOD.

Regards

Norman

PS What about diverting £1M of the £50M pledged by David Cameron from the "commemorations" of 1914 to actually doing something to clear the backlog of the British Dead and give them a decent burial and name if possible?

See:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19913000

[Old Tom]

There is no doubt that the remains of soldiers will continue to be found for many years either as a result of agriculture or development. Of course they deserve a proper burial without undue delay. Is it the case that the delays described are due to MOD staff holding the remains while seeking to establish identification? A great deal of effort was expended when the Fromelles was found, but I suggest that was a very special case and that it is perhaps unreasonable to expect that sort of effort for individuals.

Old Tom

[Chris_Baker]

The circumstances of the Beaucamps-Ligny find are not dissimilar to the Pheasant Wood pits at Fromelles. A finite, known list of men from one day. And of course a very much smaller exercise to carry out.

[Seadog]

Why a "Special Case"? What difference is there between the finding of the soldiers at Fromelles and the 15 British found together in 2009? I must admit that I cannot detect any difference whatsoever. I would think that if the remains are minimal and/or there is no subsidiary evidence found with them then the time between finding and reburial should be extremely short indeed. But of course this is not happening and I reiterate that according to previous information there were at this time last year 40 sets of remains however complete or incomplete stored in boxes by the MOD somewhere and I bet that this number has increased over the last year, to what we will never know as such info seems to be a state secret.

Regards

Norman

[frankyboy77]

HI all

posted in Saturday's Star

A Service Personnel and Veterans Agency Spokeswoman said: We can confirm the remains of the 15 soldiers, believed to have been killed in World War One,

are been cared for by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission in France while we work with officials from that organisation,

authorities in France and York and Lancaster Regiment to identify them.

"Our work is focusing on documentary and forensic analysis and comparison

"This type of work can be time consuming ,but must of course be carried out accurately and with diligence.

"Once our inquiries are concluded, the remains will be buried in a fitting way"

It looks like Sue made the statement ,as she did word for word two years ago to me HOW MUCH LONGER CAN THEY SAY THE SAME THING???????

[Seadog]

Same old platitudes Frank and the same meaningless statements. So according to this the remains are still with the CWGC in France (Arras?) and not with the MOD which to my simple mind they would need to be for investigation as the CWGC do not as I understand perform that particular function and as for "buried in a fitting way", what as UNKNOWNS or will this pathetic unit be actually trying to identify our soldiers?. To those members who may think that my statements are perhaps a little forthright I say to you so what other conclusions can we come to with this situation? This is unacceptable and I urge members to take whatever action they can to bring this sorry saga to a proper and fitting conclusion for these men who gave their lives for us are surely deserving of better treatment than this. An investigative journalist will have a field day with this story.

Norman

[keithmroberts]

MOD make the decisions. CWGC just hold the remains until MOD confirm the outcome.

Keith

[Seadog]

Really Keith, then how do MOD confirm the outcome without actually having the remains to hand for DNA samples etc where deemed necessary. After all the remains are in ARRAS and the MOD unit is in GLOUCESTER unless I am missing something here.

Regards

Norman

[Old Tom]

So the delay is due to trying to establish the identity of individual remains.

Old Tom

[Seadog]

No the delay is because according to the MOD response (see post 239) the remains are in France and the unit is in the UK which you must agree makes any in-depth analysis very difficult, bone length, DNA and dental matching etc etc. Plus of course in my opinion a good excuse for not doing anything whatsoever.

Norman

[keithmroberts]

I'm sorry Norman, but if the team deem DNA samples relevant, and I would hope that in this case they might, moving the remains is hardly necessary.

I share the frustration that this has not apparently progressed further, but we are also dealing with public servants, who are bound by their political masters who determine the priorities and the level of resources. The fact that we have a government department involved and responsible, as well as the CWGC makes communication an issue, although it is well overdue in this case that some news should be issued.

Obviously, public servants like anyone else could be lazy or inefficient, but to label them as such requires evidence not assertions. The issue in the first instance, is surely with the priority allocated to the identification of remains by ministers. That is where the pressure should be applied, and there is no value in attempting to micro-manage processes from the outside.

The proper course, is surely as Chris has done is to seek to raise the priority by involving the political layer. Civil servants cannot defend themselves in public, and while the public can accuse them of inefficiency, or of a lack of urgency, they cannot respond in kind. Your earlier suggestion regarding the centenary funds and plans is far more constructive.

Instead of criticising under resourced public employees, aim at the responsible ministers. They at least can determine the allocation of resources and are paid to take the flak.

An interesting question would be to establish whether the number of cases, rather than bodies, under investigation, is being managed, or whether there is an increasing backlog.

These cases should be progressed more quickly than seems to be the case, it would be good to have some updates, and as citizens with an interest we are in order to chase these up, but please, lets do so intelligently, and through the right channels.

Keith

[aradgick]

Norman wrote: "What about diverting £1M of the £50M pledged by David Cameron from the "commemorations" of 1914 to actually doing something to clear the backlog of the British Dead and give them a decent burial and name if possible?"

I would suggest an e-mail to the Prime Minister's Office is the best way to make this request. On another matter, I recently did that when unnecessary CRB checks were stifling a 'Big Society' effort and the response has cleared the bureaucracy completely.

Andrewr

[frankyboy77]

Andrewr

I have again contacted the Prime Minister, again today requesting him to reply,also my MP Clive Betts,

only other thing is to knock on number 10 that's if I could get near enough!!!

Frank

[Chris_Baker]

I have added a short article to LTT: http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/research/index.php/what-is-happening-to-the-beaucamps-ligny-15/

[Seadog]

I'm sorry Norman, but if the team deem DNA samples relevant, and I would hope that in this case they might, moving the remains is hardly necessary.

I share the frustration that this has not apparently progressed further, but we are also dealing with public servants, who are bound by their political masters who determine the priorities and the level of resources. The fact that we have a government department involved and responsible, as well as the CWGC makes communication an issue, although it is well overdue in this case that some news should be issued.

Obviously, public servants like anyone else could be lazy or inefficient, but to label them as such requires evidence not assertions. The issue in the first instance, is surely with the priority allocated to the identification of remains by ministers. That is where the pressure should be applied, and there is no value in attempting to micro-manage processes from the outside.

The proper course, is surely as Chris has done is to seek to raise the priority by involving the political layer. Civil servants cannot defend themselves in public, and while the public can accuse them of inefficiency, or of a lack of urgency, they cannot respond in kind. Your earlier suggestion regarding the centenary funds and plans is far more constructive.

Instead of criticising under resourced public employees, aim at the responsible ministers. They at least can determine the allocation of resources and are paid to take the flak.

An interesting question would be to establish whether the number of cases, rather than bodies, under investigation, is being managed, or whether there is an increasing backlog.

These cases should be progressed more quickly than seems to be the case, it would be good to have some updates, and as citizens with an interest we are in order to chase these up, but please, lets do so intelligently, and through the right channels.

Keith

Keith, perhaps it would help you if you care to look at my post 157 where you will see that I have indeed used the "right channels" as you describe but to no effect whatsoever. Please also look at my recent posts and I think you will see that I have made it quite clear that I lay none of the blame for this sad state of affairs at the door of the individuals within the MOD unit but with those who are responsible for the policy of non-information as to the discoveries when they are made plus for totally ignoring any reasonable request for data such as you mention even when this is put in the form of a Freedom of Information request, the facility for which is available on the MOD website. Please feel free to attempt to obtain the information you describe in your post viz: Number of cases outstanding, but note that it would be sensible to ask for the number of bodies as you put it for the BL-15 would be treated as one case only and I am sure that we will all be delighted at reading the result when you receive the information. I do not understand your comment that the remains need not be with the MOD unit for detailed investigation to be made though perhaps you can also raise this for clarification when you contact them.

Regards

Norman

[Seadog]

It may be useful for those who are coming to this extensive thread for the first time to be given some historical facts. Until they agreed to change their policy the CWGC did not as a matter of course notify upcoming interments of discovered soldiers human remains on their website. So with the exception of the few outside the CWGC who were given this information, nobody else had a clue as to what was going on. Despite a certain amount of opposition from some members of this forum the CWGC were persuaded to change the policy and now all such interments are put in the public domain. At the same time it would appear that the MOD have no intention of making the finds public by issuing a press release so nobody had any idea what the heck was going on and there was and still is a veil of secrecy over the whole subject on the part of the MOD. The CWGC position in all this is a strange one for as I understand they are the ones who are originally contacted following the discovery of human remains and indeed become the custodians of those remains pending the MOD removing said remains to their investigative unit. A pity then that when asked for details of the finds the CWGC respond with the following:-

This from Post 190 via CWGC Arras

"For CWGC, It is not common practice to make any kind of publicity on this subject. The English Press is not informed about such matters, and this case will not make an exception to the rule. Furthermore, the UK MOD is the only official body which is in a position to make a decision on the communication of this kind of event. Communicating such event is not CWGC Policy. However, please be assured, that all measures will be taken to honour the memory of these soldiers",

Perhaps as the CWGC did with interment notices it is time for them to reconsider their policy of not placing the finds in the public domain for I can see no logical reason whatsoever why they cannot do this. A member has also made the valid comment that perhaps the CWGC should record the number of human remains in its custody and awaiting interment in the Annual Statement which seems logical to me. If a member would care to contact the CWGC regarding these two issues it will be interesting see their response.

Regards

Norman