new bodies have been found ....Beaucamp ligny

[ianw]

So based on the CWGC communication above, their Exhumation Officer is tasked with considering matters associated with identification. I wonder what his standing orders are in respect of use of DNA techniques and when this is appropriate.

I also thought only certain cemeteries were open for burials at any given time e.g Cement House in recent years. The CWGC suggest that the closest cemetery is chosen. Surely this would not always be practicable?

[Seadog]

Ian thanks for the comment, it is the first mention that I have seen from the CWGC of an Exhumation Officer though of course this position may have existed for a considerable time. From my own point of view it would be very helpful to have an organization chart leading us through the various stages that relate to the excavation of remains through to interment and the various individuals (by title) and organizations involved in the process. Perhaps somebody "in the know" will post such chart. I must admit that for such a serious issue there appears to be very little official and reliable information on this subject either on this forum or the CWGC website.

Norman

[ianw]

For the avoidance of doubt, I have no wish to "beat up on" the CWGC in any way. I have great admiration for what they do. However, this is, in my view, a very important question.

[JimSmithson]

Thank you for the images Norman. At least we were all able to share, albeit at a distance, a few thoughts for these men.

I am in France in 3 weeks and as I pass by the road to the Beaurains office every time I go into Arras to shop, it is certainly my intention to call and try and discuss the whole thing. I may get little but I can at least now ask about the role of the Exhumation Officer and how they work. I cannot see why that should not be forthcoming - I will be showing genuine interest.

Jim

[Seadog]

Sounds good Jim, I have contacted the French office in the past and found them to be very helpful. I am sure that they will do their best to answer your questions. I must admit the fact that there is an Exhumation Officer available and presumably in the employ of the Commission is certainly reassuring in terms of the possible identification of the found. It will be very interesting to hear the result of your visit.

Regards

Norman

[MelPack]

Norman

I came across this snippet of inf ormation that you might find interesting:

Discovery and identification cases are, and always have been, the

responsibility of the local authorities and the defence force to which the

casualties would have been attached. The Commission's responsibility in such

cases only commences when remains are handed to us for burial. In both

France and Belgium (the regions in which most discoveries are made) the

local authorities have to satisfy themselves that they are dealing with war

remains. Once that has been established the process differs in the two

countries. In Belgium, the police usually carry out the exhumation and

compile a detailed report. The report is sent to the relevant Defence

Attached so that any investigation of identity can begin, while the remains

are handed to the Commission and kept in our mortuary for safekeeping.

In France, the Commission has an exhumation officer. He would be called to

the site by the local authorities and carefully photograph and exhume the

remains noting anything that might lead to a possible identification. The

relevant Defence Attache is immediately notified and while the remains are

held by us, any items that may be of use in identifying a casualty are

passed to the relevant Defence Unit. These units (the British Army's is

called PS4) are specialists in just this type of work. In recent years, they

have also provided a forensic scientist who has visited our offices in

France and Belgium and has proved extremely useful in identifying what would

have been a number of otherwise difficult cases. Recent success include the

identifications of Pte George Nugent and Lt Marcel Simon.

Source: http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/G...0-12/0977159278

Mel

[Seadog]

Thanks Mel that has added to my understanding of the procedure certainly in France where the Exhumation Officer is based. The text states that he is responsible for both recording (Photos) and excavating the remains. Obviously in most cases I would have thought that his actual role would mean that he would oversee the excavations, certainly in respect of the latest 15 sets of remains found. I also note that the MOD Unit PS4 will provide if necessary the cleaning and identification of any object found that may be used to identify the remains. This all sounds very laudable but then we come to this quote from Post 4;

“We alerted the gendarmes and the prosecutor , then when we dug a bit further we found military artifacts like ammunition and pieces of webbing."What enabled us to identify the soldiers immediately was their buttons", which were engraved with the initials of the regiment, added Motte (The Mayor) , who knows the British infantry, especially since the discovery of a body in his garden in March 2006”

There is no mention of the involvement of an Exhumation Officer in this report and it certainly reads as though the remains were excavated by local labour with no professional overview whatsoever. I may of course be wrong in this assumption and even if I am correct the local people should be applauded for their efforts given that at present there is no alternative procedure available to them

Norman

[towisuk]

I think the photos in the previous posts speaks volumes about not involving the public in the burial of recovered remains.

A padre and a couple of representatives graveside, seems a paltry reward for losing ones life for ones country in the line of duty.

regards

Tom

[PBI]

Just recieved my newsletter from the CWGC,plenty of material on Fromelles..but as expected nothing regarding the current situation at BeaucampS Ligny.

[Seadog]

Members will I am sure forgive me if I yet again state that which appears obvious to me. This present regrettable situation regarding the total lack of information put in the public domain by in particular the CWGC will continue to cause doubt and suspicion until the CWGC are prepared to take a more proactive role in disseminating the information as soon as it is possible and practical to do so. Even more so with the discoveries in France for as we are now aware the CWGC does apparently play an active role in both the exhumation and identification of the discoveries as per the previous post from Melpack (Post 107). What is happening now is not acceptable and steps must be taken to improve matters as soon as possible.

Norman

[dycer]

Norman,

I accept your point about ensuring information should be in the public domain,subject to the fear of raising false hopes for an individual descendant that their relative has been found,but reading Mel's post I gain the impression that the CWGC,merely acts as an agent for the Local Authorities and the relevant defence corps,until such time as the remains are formally handed to the CWGC for safe-keeping.

If you accept my argument,public information regarding finds and identification rests with the LA or Services e.g. MOD but reasonably the CWGC could be more proactive by giving future internments,fuller public exposure to both give any interested parties the opportunity to attend the burial service and to generally publicise its ongoing work.

George

[Seadog]

George, in essence I agree with your comments. There are however two areas that concern me both relating to procedures as described in the post from Melpack (107). I have not seen any evidence either on this forum or elsewhere of the Police in Belgium taking responsibility for the excavation of the soldiers remains as quoted in the post referred to above. The available evidence regarding the finding of the 15 in France seems to disprove the statement that the CWGC via their Exhumation Officer are responsible for both the excavation and attempted identification of the remains found. Until clarification is given to these points I will remain to have grave doubts as to the level of professionalism and care afforded to the mortal remains of our soldiers that fate has denied a named grave.

Norman

[IanA]

I have thanked the French office for this fulsome reply.

I hardly think it is fair to describe their reply as 'fulsome'.

[Seadog]

As promised here is my query to the CWGC and their reply. Please note the response to my questions 2 and 3.

Norman

Query to the CWGC

1.0 Why did the notification of the interments on the CWGC web site which took place on the 14th Oct 2009 exclude the timing of the burials I request that this will happen in the future, plus that such announcements will be archived for future reference and made available on the CWGC web site

2.0 Why is there no mention on the CWGC web site whatsoever of the discovery of the 15 sets of remains recently found in Beaucamps Ligny or even a press release. This has been widely reported in the European media.

3.0 What is the intention with regard to the attempted identification of the remains as (2) above? Will DNA evidence be utilized as is being done with the Fromelles excavations?

Any reply will be posted on the Great War Forum Web Site

Reply from the CWGC

Dear

Thank you for your email and questions which I have attempted to address below.

1. In this instance I believe we were not aware of the timings for these reinterements at the time of posting. Although this information became available later, it was not communicated in good time to enable a web update. This is an oversight on our part and we will do all we can in the future to ensure all the available information is made public.

The current website does not have an archive facility. Although it would be possible to create an additional page on which this information could be stored, it would add to the already heavily layered structure we have. I would question the value of such a page and would suggest that information of such a "specialised" nature is better handled by direct enquiry, when we would be more than happy to provide said information to you.

2. & 3 I would suggest addressing these issues jointly...

As I am sure you understand deceased servicemen and women are (until such time as they are passed to us for burial in one of our cemeteries) the responsibility of the government for which they were serving. All decisions regarding investigation or attribution of identity (including publicity) are a matter for the relevant service authority - in this case the United Kingdom Ministry of Defence and their Joint Casualty and Compassionate Centre, who have been informed of the discovery and are proceeding with normal investigative procedures.

I hope the above reply has been helpful. Thank you again for contacting us.

Yours sincerely

Peter Francis

Head of External Communications

Commonwealth War Graves Commission

[ian turner]

My understanding of the procedure is that first it is a task for the local police to determine the status of uncovered remains - civil or military. If military then the determined nationality of the remains will decide who is next brought in to handle matters. Let us say it is British and thus the MOD are then tasked with attempting to ID the remains.

Once that has been undertaken, and the remains ID'd as far as possible, they are finally handed to the CWGC for burial.

I am not an authority on this subject, this is just how I believe the process is handled, be it France or Belgium. And I guess similarly in most other places in the world.

If the CWGC have an interment officer what are their responsibilites? Overseeing proper interment, arranging correctly engraved headstones and locating the appropriate cemetery and plots? Or do they also get involved in ID work?

Adding this to the previous and recent photos of interment ceremonies, I am left with the impression that the MOD will take the least line of resistance in its ID work (ie. not involving genetic ID work) and the CWGC is keeping a low profile in these matters to keep it 'on the cheap'.

I hope I am wrong, but it is how things appear to be.

Edit - I had not seen Seadog/Norman's last post when writing this.

[Paul Reed]

Having had direct dealings in the matter of the discovery of remains on the Great War battlefields, let me give you just one example that happened to us at Courcelette. A body was found by local farmer who came and reported it to me, because he knew me and did not who to report it; very few locals, even on the Somme, know much about CWGC. I then called CWGC out of office hours (via someone we knew), and they said they would be arriving the next day. The ground on which this body was found was about to be pulverised by a local farmer who would not wait, so we had to retrieve the remains ourselves, and all the artefacts with it. The Mayor of the village was away, so we had no direct authority to stop the work. Anyway, with the remains and objects recovered CWGC arrived early next morning in the form of the Chief Exhumations Officer, who took charge of the remains, came out to see where the remains were found, stopped the farmer from doing any further work, and returned for a second, more thorough search under no pressure of any work about to start. Very little was found on the second sweep, and sadly nothing to identify the unknown Canadian soldier beyond the fact that he was Canadian. Once the remains were transferred to a morgue in Arras, the Police then came to see them to ascertain whether it was a war death or otherwise, and satisfied left. The French police rarely come out to a discovery, from what I can gather. The remains were then examined by Professor Margaret Cox, and a report made, but of course there was nothing to identify him. He was eventually reburied as an unknown in a cemetery at Courcelette.

I would say that all times CWGC behaved with absolute professionalism and courtesy towards the local landowners, and with utmost respect for the fallen soldier. His pass into the care of CWGC could not have been handled better, and I cannot see any other way this case, and hundreds like it, could be handled any other way.

[MelPack]

The remains were then examined by Professor Margaret Cox, and a report made, but of course there was nothing to identify him. He was eventually reburied as an unknown in a cemetery at Courcelette.

Does Margaret Cox have a long standing role in respect of these matters?

[Seadog]

Paul thanks for that example. I bow to your knowledge but as with everything related to this topic the more we know the more questions arise. You say for instance that even in this part of France, the Somme that very few locals know about the CWGC?, then in my opinion it is about time that the CWGC addressed this lack of knowledge. Also the farmer wanted to get on and so the remains would have been pulverised?, if this is the case then it is about time that legal sanctions were created that will cover the finding of human remains within a proper legal framework. Who is Prof M Cox it would be good to know.

Again I reiterate that everytime this subject comes up more problems are uncovered and the greater the reason for a full review of all the procedures relating to the excavating of soldiers remains. Even more so now that there is the possibility that DNA samples can be recovered and even if they are not used at the time such samples will be available for future use if and when required. There must be a better way!.

Regards

Norman

[Paul Reed]

Details of Margaret Cox here:

http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites...g_margaret.html

As far as I know she still does work for CWGC.

[ian turner]

Also the farmer wanted to get on and so the remains would have been pulverised?, if this is the case then it is about time that legal sanctions were created that will cover the finding of human remains within a proper legal framework.

Norman, in this case it was good that the find was even reported. Farmers wanting to avoid delays in their work whilst recovery takes place just go ahead and plough the remains in again without the nicety of reporting.

[JimSmithson]

Thank you for the details of the find Paul - it is reassuring that at least some attempt is made to carry out somewhere near the procedures that should take place. Having see Margaret Cox on Television I am sure of her competence in the field but as a forensic anthropologist I am sure she would agree that examination after the remains have been removed is a poor second to excavating in the first place. I appreciate the circumstances did not allow this but surely that is a matter to be brought up at a government level. Are there no laws about finding remains in France? My experiences around Arras are leading me to believe that some numbers of remains are found each year and it is left to chance as to whether proper examination is carried out. After the finds a few years ago in the new industrial estate north east of Arras and the consequent archaeological work done there I note more construction work is being done in the same area. I hope that someone has an eye on it!

Jim

[Seadog]

Just putting this on to see if there is any further information concerning the discovery of the 15 sets of soldiers remains as detailed in post one.

Regards

Norman

[PBI]

Seems like the "Mushroom" Scenario is in operation as usual Norman.

[Seadog]

I totally agree with you PBI. I cannot understand why the excavations at Fromelles receive the level of media coverage and postings on this forum that it, in my opinion quite rightly deserves and yet other discoveries such as the not inconsiderable find of 15 sets of remains receive virtually no coverage whatsoever, certainly here in the UK. A very unsatisfactory state of affairs and a situation which should and must be rectified by the authorities responsible.

We are supposed to live in an age of transparency and freely available exchange of information but this state of affairs remains stuck firmly in a previous era.

Regards

Norman

[JimSmithson]

Sorry Norman, I didn't get to the offices in Beaurains as I had to sort out a number of burst pipes and such in the house as well as entertain my 2 daughters for Christmas. I will have more time at half term in a few weeks time (and I'm on my own which helps!) I still hope to quiz the folk there about policy over finds.

Having just read the latest Volksbund magazine about the work done by the Germans it actually puts the CWGC to shame a little. An example is the finding of 35 remains by the French "Amis de Vauquoix", a group who look after the "Butte de Vauquois, an area a little like Hill 60 in Ypres. The Volksbund were able to identify 5 of the remains and all 35 were buried in the local military cemetery in Cheppy. Everything was all reported on the web site during the time which meant that a large number of Germans travelled to France for the service, representing at least one of the relatives who was unable to travel. They also in 2009 recovered a staggering 42 000 remains in 12 countries, reburying them in 26 cemeteries, most of this in the East. Last but not least nearly 16000 youngsters took part in a camp of one kind or another, usually involved with taking care of some of the cemeteries whilst studying the impact of war - a really powerful piece of work for the future. Remember this is not a state organisation and relies on charity!

Jim