new bodies have been found ....Beaucamp ligny

[Seadog]

Good suggestion from recent posts that a DNA sample be taken as routine when any new soldiers remains are discovered. This would mean of course that remains such as the B-L 15 would then need to be interred in separate graves in order that if the identity of individuals can be ascertained the headstones can properly inscribed. The trouble is that even this sensible suggestion seems to be a world away from the techniques being applied to the initial excavation of the B-L 15. The newspaper photos posted here seem to show a none to careful removal of the remains with that useful tool, the shovel and this being used by shall we say, less than archeologically trained individuals. What a contrast there is between the media coverage of the Fromelles discoveries including the separate stand-alone web site created by the CWGC complete with the "Media Managers" Blog and newsletter etc, and the apparent lack of interest in these "Old Contemptibles" who were some of the very first to lay down their lives for this country. Not a happy situation methinks.

Regards

Norman

[PBI]

Good Morning.I surmise that the MOD/CWGC will assume that with the passage of time,that many relatives and Family lines of Discovered Soldiers,will have simply died/died out,so negating the need to expend the time,cost,and effort required to render possible Identification of the remains by DNA.I will be contacting the CWGC today with regards to the current state of affairs regarding the B-L 15.i called the CWGC this morning and was suitably unimpressed by their response to my Questions,which were all answered by the Standard reply,that they dont know anything,and will get back to me at a later Date.. i await developments with interest.

[Seadog]

I have today received information to the effect that the remains of the 15 British Soldiers found at B-L are at present being safeguarded by the able people based at the CWGC French Office in Arras. Because understandably the Fromelles situation has placed a large workload on those responsible for attempted identification the MOD has yet to commence the process. This is good news in so far that there is still the possibility of the extraction of DNA from the remains and the chance that some of these men may eventually be identified. This latest information is from a reliable third party and I have no reason to doubt its accuracy. Now would seem to be the time to contact the authorities and lobby for such a procedure to be implemented.

Regards

Norman

[ianw]

I have written to Bob Ainsworth and the CWGC Director General about the BL 15 and whether a Fromelles type ID investigation is being considered. I think it is important that we try to establish the principal that IDs will be attempted when reasonably likely to be successful for newly discovered remains. I don't consider Fromelles a special case but rather a case-study to be a template for the future.

[Seadog]

Thanks Ian

Regards

Norman

[PBI]

Amen to that Ian..Hopefully this scenario can now open up a whole new Window of Research,and provide Positive Ids of these long forgotten Men.

[Seadog]

Good morning all. I have sent the following to my MP via the official email contact address. I append the contents below insofar that this may assist other members if they wish to do the same with their local MP.

Norman

Dear Rt Hon

In late 2009 the mortal remains of 15 WW1 British Soldiers identified as serving with the Yorks and Lancs regiment were found at Beaucamps-Ligny in Northern France and are at present in the safe custody of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission in Arras, France. These remains will be eventually handed over to the MOD for attempted identification prior to reburial by the CWGC. You will be interested to know that there has not been any announcement of this discovery whatsoever in the British Media although it has been widely publicised in France. The men were part of the original 1914 BEF also known as the "Old Contemptibles" and it is possible to produce a list of 32 Yorks and Lancs Regiment soldiers whose date of death etc fits the 15 comrades found.

Therefore it is likely that given the application of the DNA techniques used for the Fromelles discoveries and the tracing of any existing descendents as has also happened at Fromelles actual matches could be made and some of the soldiers may be accorded the dignity of a name. I implore you to use your best efforts and influence with both the CWGC and MOD to ensure that these men are treated to the same level of modern investigative techniques as were the Fromelles fallen. To do anything less would not be acceptable.

Thanking you in anticipation of your support in this matter.

Yours sincerely,

[PBI]

Today i recieved a Telephone call from Mr.Paul Davis of the CWGC at Maidenhead.He informed me of the following details concerning the L-B 15.

1) 14 of the sets of remains are unidentifiable,in that they do not have any personal items upon them that would give any details as to which Regiment they belonged to at their time of Death or any otherl items.that could aid in providing Identification of an individual and the Regiment he served in/

2) 1 set of remains can be identified as that of a Soldier of the Yorks & Lancs as the Cap Badge of that Regiment was found on the Body.

3) A set of Sgts Stripes was also found on one of the sets remains.

4) At a later moment in time the MOD will be conducting an investigation,but due to the Fromelles affair,and the current conflict in Afghanistan,they are currently very busy.

Mr Davis will be confirming the above facts to me via E-Mail,which i shall post on this Thread.Regards Russ.

[ianw]

It's unfortunate that the unit ID information is so thin. Also on the list of Y&L possibles, there doesn't seem to be a Sergeant.

Doubtful if great efforts at ID could be justified on the basis of this information.

[PBI]

i am pondering on what must have happened to any personal effects found during the exhumations.

[Seadog]

Ian to me this info does in no way detract from the need to apply the latest identification techniques to the remains as already discussed. The fact that there apparently is a Sergeant present may give the experts on this forum a chance to come up with a possible match. I do not know enough about the fighting around Beaucamps-Ligny to comment but other more knowledgeable members may be able to provide further info.

PBI, it is a matter of concern to me also that although there are a further 14 sets of remains which have been exhumed no form of ID whatsoever has been found with them. You are to be congratulated in your efforts to obtain this information, something which should have been put in the public domain months ago. The salient question still applies, will the authorities take DNA samples if these are available from ALL remains now found irrespective of the numbers discovered so that maybe in some future time a soldier may be given the dignity of a name. Keep on lobbying guys the effort will be worth it.

Best Wishes

Norman

[Tjap]

It is interesting that no "dog tags" seem to be recorded so the German Totenlistes and the Red Cross files may be able to shed some light on these men perhaps.

Best,

Howard

[ianw]

I certainly agree that DNA should be recovered if possible from all remains as a matter of routine.

The secondary part of the ID process should then go ahead with the relatives being tracked down. However, in this case can it be reliably established that these remains are likely to be the Y&L group given that only one Y&L badged soldier has been found.

As has been suggested the German listings could shed some light on things if this group burial is recorded.

[PBI]

Has any Forumite checked the Yorks and Lancs Battalion War Diary for the Period in question,15 Casualties this early on in the War would have surely warranted an entry in the Battalion War Diary.

[Tyneside Chinaman]

Hi

Having been involved in the ID of Private George Nugent of the Tyneside Scottish in 1998 and having read all the threads with interest. I must correct many of the posts that mention the MOD. The department involved is actually PS4 and they deal with all casualties. Those found in graves in France are still regarded as serving soldiers and are the responsibility of PS4. However their main work is with present day casualties and the repatriation of wounded and dead to this country from Iraq and Afghanistan and obviously this has to take priority. I am sure you would not want it another way.

The purse is not bottomless and if money has to be spent we need to make sure that those serving today are treated better than their fallen predecessors.

Don't get me wrong I would love all the fallen to be DNA tested as some of those found at Contalmaison will be Tyneside Irish who entered the village on 1/7/16 or Green Howards who took it on 10/7/16.

Maybe if those who want DNA testing were willing to pay for it attitudes would change. Perhaps then we would see how many relatives really wanted to identify Grt Grnd Father. The alternative would be more taxation to cover the cost.

Can you see it "My Grnd Father got through OK so I aint going to pay"

No I just think its not viable, even though it is a really good sentiment.

regards

John

[dfaulder]

>><<The department involved is actually PS4 and they deal with all casualties. Those found in graves in France are still regarded as serving soldiers and are the responsibility of PS4. However their main work is with present day casualties and the repatriation of wounded and dead to this country from Iraq and Afghanistan and obviously this has to take priority. I am sure you would not want it another way.

The purse is not bottomless and if money has to be spent we need to make sure that those serving today are treated better than their fallen predecessors.

>><< No I just think its not viable, even though it is a really good sentiment.

regards

John

John

I think the situation is greyer than that. The cost of taking a DNA sample can't be huge - particularly if they find some group that is already doing these sorts of tests (archaeology, forensics, genealogy, paternity etc.).

In terms of benefit, I am reminded of being told about today's servicemen nearing the end of training being taken to the Western Front to emphasise the country's ongoing commitment to the fallen (which must be a sobering experience if the next stop is Afghanistan). Is quietly burying unidentified remains consistent with this message when there are means of identification that have not been used? Do we want to commit to remembering today's fallen in 90 years time in a similar (or better) manner to how we remember the WW1 generation?

There is a line to be drawn and cost will determine where that line is drawn; but the benefit (even if hard to quantify and value) also has to be taken into account.

David

[Seadog]

I think that we also need to bear in mind the average number of WW1 soldier’s remains found annually. With the exception of the Fromelles event the actual numbers sometime do not even reach double figures so I cannot see that there is any valid argument based on costs to be made here. There is a current thread running relating to the recovery and identification of German dead, mainly WW2. It is a useful exercise to read this and compare the situation with that prevailing here in the UK. It would appear that we as a country have a lot to learn from the German procedures.

German discoveries thread:

Regards

Norman

[PBI]

Maybe the Heads at the MOD/CWGC could use this Service.

http://www.oxfordancestors.com/images/pdf/...sue%2013%29.pdf

[Tjap]

I think we need to give the powers that be time to get through the remaining issues around the Fromelles Project and then consider the evidence from Ligny.

It is encouraging to see that the service records for many of the Yk & Lanc Regt. are still intact and these provide anthropometric data (height, weight, place of birth etc.) which would be a useful adjunct. The fact that only one hat badge was found does not rule out that many of the bodies found were also from the same regiment.

Best,

Howard

[Seadog]

Good points Howard with which I am certain we all agree. I do believe that we must keep up the pressure on the authorities to apply the latest investigative techniques to the B-L remains including the extraction of DNA where possible. The major problem with all of this is the total and complete lack of any official information whatsoever being disseminated in respect of these men. We do not know whether the procedures applied with great success at Fromelles will be repeated in this case and until we do I hope that we will all continue to lobby those who can influence the actions of the responsible organizations until they have the decency to tell us exactly what is going on.

Regards

Norman

[Seadog]

A previous post indicated that a set of Sergeants stripes have been found on the remains of one of the B-L 15. I realise that this is "Long shot” but I wonder if the man is one of these Sergeants recorded on the Ploegsteert Memorial with a DOD of the 18th October 1914. I have no idea whether their regiments were involved in the fighting around Beaucamps-Ligny in 1914 and perhaps a member will be able the assist with this.

William Kearney

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=872051

James Kent

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=869201

Joseph McGowran

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=869915

Walter Smith

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=868608

Regards

Norman

[PBI]

What has happened to the Remains of the British Soldiers that were found in the Pits at Fromelles..How Many and what Regts ?.I believe Peter Barton raised these very pertinent questions earlier on last week on BBC,and was edited out by the BBC for his pains,seems to me that now the Australians have got what they wanted from the Investigation ,the missing British Casualties at Fromelles are to be Forgotten.I feel sure that many British lads were also in these Pits,along with their Aussie Brothers in Arms as the initial Fromelles Dig report confirms this..Maybe Peter or some one with some updates could make themselves known here on the Forum and put the record straight please.

[glosterman]

What has happened to the Remains of the British Soldiers that were found in the Pits at Fromelles..How Many and what Regts ?.I believe Peter Barton raised these very pertinent questions earlier on last week on BBC,and was edited out by the BBC for his pains,seems to me that now the Australians have got what they wanted from the Investigation ,the missing British Casualties at Fromelles are to be Forgotten.I feel sure that many British lads were also in these Pits,along with their Aussie Brothers in Arms as the initial Fromelles Dig report confirms this..Maybe Peter or some one with some updates could make themselves known here on the Forum and put the record straight please.

Press reports said only 3 bodies identified as British. At present names not known, but ID work will go on for several years. Due to lack of artifacts and WW1 records on individuals (destroyed in Blitz) key appears to be finding a DNA match for the 3 and any other of the 40+ casualties where nationality has yet to be determined.

Also, I have to agree with Tyneside Chinaman, although I believe the JCCC has taken over role from PS4 , regarding cost / MoD priorities. It is not the cost of this task alone but pressures / limits overall defence expenditure and planned cutbacks whoever wins the election. Whether we like it or not, this historical and important work is unlikely to be a priority for the MoD in the next few years and I doubt additional resources will be provided. More likely the pen pushers may see it as a potential cost saving

[Seadog]

How about this for a radical concept. Fund a specific “Finding the Fallen” dedicated team by diverting some of the RBL Poppy Appeal donations. This would as I see it at least two advantages, the first being that the RBL would be seen to be doing something constructive by having a leading role with the identification of the found and by linking this with the RBL it will be possible to draw upon both the support that they receive both here and abroad plus their PR expertise and contacts with the media would be very advantageous.

A radical concept perhaps but at least better that “Got no funds”, “MOD skint”, “Years of work” etc etc. This will never happen of course and we, the good old Brits will continue to muddle along whilst totally ignoring the new investigative tools now available and do our best to keep things “Under our hats” in case anyone expresses an interest.

Regards

Norman

[ianw]

Can I draw the attention of readers of this thread to the "Captain Pritchard" thread in "Soldiers".

The story of the possible discovery of Captain Pritchard's remains is rather unclear at the moment but most interesting.