new bodies have been found ....Beaucamp ligny

[SteveMarsdin]

Received today from Jim Murphy MP, Shadow Defence Secretary

Norman

Well done, Norman.

On another aside, on the "pages14-18" francophone forum there's a thread of "then and now" photos that runs to over 25 pages that I catch up with every so often. I was looking today and there is a post dated 31/03/2012, right in the middle of all the others, where a member says he'd just been digging a hole for compost in his garden and found two bodies he thought were German. He chose to contact the CWGC in Beaurain for guidance: http://pages14-18.mesdiscussions.net/pages1418/Sites-et-vestiges-de-la-Grande-Guerre/juste-lieu-tard-sujet_920_24.htm

[Seadog]

Thanks for the link Steve, whatever the nationality of the soldiers remains found on the battlefields they must all be treated with the same decency and respect and if possible should be accorded the chance of a named grave.

Regards

Norman

[Dragon]

Received today from Jim Murphy MP, Shadow Defence Secretary

Parliamentary convention only allows me to act on behalf of those individuals living within my own constituency. It is therefore not possible for me to make representations on your behalf to the MoD on the specifics of the situation. I would encourage yourself and others to continue to ask questions of the MoD via your MPs.

(My bold)

I repeat. "Would it be possible, please, for someone to set out a summary of the situation and what you would like MPs to do? I am very happy to write, but I'm sure I'm not alone in not feeling able to face wading through fourteen pages of posts to pick out the salient details." post #344

If you want busy people to add their written support to your campaign, you need to make it easy for them to think yes, they will.

Gwyn

[Seadog]

Gwyn see my post 255 for the details that I have sent to MPs etc including the Shadow Defence Secretary. By the way the "convention" that only your own MP can act on your behalf is ludicrous in situations such as this one where there is no constituency connection.

Norman

[Dragon]

Thanks, but honestly, scrolling back a hundred posts isn't making it easy. Believe me, I genuinely would write letters but I have some very major things going on (as do many people) which are eating up time.

Having said that, the same applies to MPs who get hundreds of letters each day. If they are to act, they (or their PAs) need to see in an efficient manner what they can do.

I organised a campaign to MPs which ended up with leaflets going into every GP surgery in the country. I found that some MPs will act on the constituents-only protocol and some will accept letters from non-constituents. The sure way of getting a letter from a constituent to each MP is to compile a list of all the relevant MPs (MPs whose constituency this issue affects/affected), make it public (eg on GWF) and say, is there anyone in each of these constituencies who will write to their MP? You could end up with letters going to all MPs! The force of campaigning lies in the number of letters an MP receives.

The other thing I found worked was to provide a bullet point flyer which was attached to the letter. I did this by reworking the muddled, wordy mashup which a national charity's staff had written and making it into something clear and simple. (The charity asked me to do it, by the way and endorsed it.) So, on one page of A4, it was something like:

• Background
  
• As an MP, you are uniquely placed to:
  
• Key actions needed
  
• For more information, please visit...
  

This was introduced by the letter. Another thing you can do is ask the MP to consider joining the APPG for War Heritage or other relevant APPG. A critical feature of an APPG is that it is exactly that: all party.

I also created a PP which was shown in the House of Commons to support a Press Release, which I wrote for the APPG. (Have you got a Press Release? You can ask the APPG if they would consider creating one, if you're not experienced in these.) I know PP isn't as widely used now - there are better ways. You need a tame MP or committee or a connection to organise this.

Sorry this is garbled but I'm short of time.

Gwyn

[Graham Smith]

Good grief.....Scrolling back a hundred posts is hardly a major effort......Two clicks of the mouse should see that done!

That said, I agree with some of your other points.

In truth I think this matter is gathering momentum and any publicity helps.

[Dragon]

Good grief.....Scrolling back a hundred posts is hardly a major effort......Two clicks of the mouse should see that done!

A hyperlink to the post mentioned would have helped. Not everyone is using a desktop computer. This forum doesn't function fully on an iPad; the phone version doesn't have post numbers.

I am simply not going to read three hundred and fifty posts to extract relevant information before attempting a letter to my MP. I asked for a clear, concise summary. I still can't fathom what the essence of all this is, let alone communicate it to someone who hasn't any particular interest or background knowledge .

Gwyn

[frankyboy77]

Hi Norman

It looks as if the "Huddersfield Examiner" has done us proud, I am now back on to my MP Clive Betts.

If its only your own MP that can deal with a question as Shadow Defence Secretary, States I will have to rattle Clive's corner,

I will send him a copy of Jim Murphy reply and a copy of the letter to Huddersfield Examiner letter.

Never heard from Yorkshire Post pity, they are to busy on other things,or 100 years might be to far back for them?. it might be run by to many,NONE!! Yorkshire MEN .

I care but their is a reason I got involved for my family and for our grandad.

Frank

[Graham Smith]

Gwyn,

Sorry I was unaware that you were operating on iPad or similar devices. No idea how to hyperlink but this is Normans post #255, hope that assists a tad. it's what i used as a template for a letter to my MP (Mr David Winnick) and he already replied by letter.

If this is not what you require I'm sure Norman will put it right.

A bit long-winded (Really I hear you say!) letter sent to all Four of Bristols MPs today tried to send to the PM but limited to 1,000 characters only..

Ref: 15 BRITISH WW1 SOLDIERS FOUND IN FRANCE 2009

May I bring to your attention the following in the hope and expectation that you will be able to influence the MOD to address the situation as a matter of urgency and to use whatever means they have to attempt to provide names to the soldiers so that in death they are given the dignity which sadly has so far eluded them.

The Facts

1.0 In November 2009 in the village of Beaucamps-Ligny, France building work exposed the human remains of 15 WW1 soldiers deemed to be British on the evidence of artifacts found with the remains.

2.0 The soldiers are quite possibly from the York & Lancaster Regiment which fought in the area during 1914, the first year of the war.

3.0 In this case it is probable that the men are from the original “Old Contemptibles”, the regulars of the BEF sent to France in 1914.

4.0 The finding of the remains was covered in some French newspapers but apparently the MOD who is responsible for such press releases in the UK did not do so.

5.0 The remains are now with the Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC) at their office in Arras, France, where apparently they have been since 2009

6.0 Researchers have narrowed the pool of possible identifications down to a level which would provide the opportunity for DNA matching to be used as it was so successfully with the 200+ Australian soldiers found in the mass grave at Fromelles, the majority of whom have now been identified. This list has been provided to the MOD.

7.0 Despite numerous requests to the MOD for information as to the current situation no such information has been received and sadly there does seem to be total reluctance on their part to divulge any details of any of the number of cases outstanding which were reported in 2011 on a radio programme as standing at 40 which have no doubt increased by now.

8.0 There is in my opinion and that of others that a major problem exists with the unit based in Gloucester whose function it is to investigate the human remains found on the battlefield prior to handing them to the CWGC for burial in a War Cemetery.

Many individuals have written to their MPs on this subject with little success save the stock answer from the MOD which is repeated year after year. This subject has now been brought into sharp focus by the 100^th Anniversary of the start of WW1 in 2014 plus the announcement that a sum of £50m is to be made available in respect of this anniversary. I would suggest that a part of this sum should be allocated to the task of the attempted identification of the 15 soldiers by perhaps commissioning the independent experts who did such good work with the Australians at Fromelles. Not forgetting that there are many other cases awaiting action by the MOD but the case of the 15 would seem to give the best chances of success and will be a superb example for the 100^th Anniversary that we as a country still care for those who gave their lives in this “War to end all Wars” even after the passage of 100 years.

We are getting nowhere with this case at present and if nothing is done who knows just how long our soldiers will remain in wooden boxes on a shelf in France. I am sure that you will give the above the serious consideration that it so richly deserves and I look forward to a response in due course.

More details

http://www.longlongt...camps-ligny-15/

Yours truly,

PS Please copy if you so wish

Added

Also sent to:-

Eric Ollerenshaw MP - Lancaster

Paul Blomfield MP - Sheffield

Clive Betts MP - Sheffield

David Blunket MP - Sheffield

Meg Munn MP - Sheffield

Angela Smith MP - Sheffield

Nick Clegg MP Depury Prime Minister - Sheffield

Jim Murphy MP - Shadow Defence Secretery

Nigel Adams MP - Selby & Ainsty

Hugh Bailey MP - York Central

Andrew Jones MP - Harrogate & Knaresborough

Anne McIntosh MP - Thirsk, Malton & Filey

[Seadog]

We know you care Frank (Post 358) and those like-minded members of this forum are doing excellent work in supporting both you and other possible relatives of the fallen in the quest for the latest investigation techniques to be used in an effort to identify some if not all of the BL-15. I was aware at the start that only my local MP would respond to any requests for action on any matter but I had sent my letter to a wide selection in the hope that they will at least be aware of the situation. The newspaper article was very interesting, and in my opinion very well written and illustrated I guess by images supplied by you and this plus the details uploaded by Chris Baker have the advantage of being linked in any emails which members may send. We have a lot of "irons in the fire" right now Frank and it will be interesting to see how these progress. For those who have not seen the page produced by Chris here is a reminder of the link.

http://www.longlongt...camps-ligny-15/

Best Wishes

Norman

[ph0ebus]

Well done, Norman.

On another aside, on the "pages14-18" francophone forum there's a thread of "then and now" photos that runs to over 25 pages that I catch up with every so often. I was looking today and there is a post dated 31/03/2012, right in the middle of all the others, where a member says he'd just been digging a hole for compost in his garden and found two bodies he thought were German. He chose to contact the CWGC in Beaurain for guidance: http://pages14-18.me...ujet_920_24.htm

He horrid Google Translate version:

Well if I was expecting this one this afternoon digging a hole in my garden to make a hole in compost, I came across two skeletons, two bodies lying curled up, coast, coastline, my land been filled in after the Great War, I live on Angres Artois, and the level of broken bricks indicates the original soil, they were in the clay, the two skeletons are complete at 70 ° / °, no weapons, no pieces of equipment, no lashings, buttons to crowns Prussian rest of jacket with red piping, infantry? , studded boots and just amalgane cartridges chargers blades on he left me tomorrow to contact the local police services and repatriate these remains by the Volksbund Pérenchies 59, I do not despair of finding the plates to identify indices are thin ...... it is always a great moment of emotion especially when I found the first femur .....

Bruno

Today I was contacted by an officer of the Department of Rehabilitation Commonweath of serious war based Beaurais (Pas de Calais) there is a Memorandum of Understanding for the German soldiers in my area, it will be recovered tomorrow afternoon 03 / 04/2012, good evening Bruno

I will not add any more to this thread on this particular find, given this thread has its own very important and specific purpose. Perhaps we should place this new find in its own thread?

-Daniel

[Seadog]

Daniel, it would be good to follow this discovery if possible and to see whether there is any chance of identification of the soldiers and their eventual fate. Perhaps you would care to create a new thread in this sub-forum for any further discussion. On the subject of finding human remains of soldiers I have not received a reply to my email to CWGC at Beaurains regarding the news published in the newspaper article (Posts 317-318) for any information on the “many bodies” found on the proposed site of the new canal. Not surprising at all because this sadly is the attitude of the CWGC with these events though what the secrecy is for I have no idea.

Regards

Norman

[Seadog]

Have members any thoughts on this aspect, according to the map (Post 303) the bodies were found near to each other but in three separate graves. Who was responsible for these burials for if it was members of the regiment then surely at this stage in the war (1914) someone such as the Padre would have recorded the names of the fallen and an approximate location. If on the other hand the Germans undertook the task then the evidence of the Pheasant Wood burials would seem to indicate that they may have noted the location together with any other details available. It could I suppose have even been the locals who buried the men but surely even in that case they would have recorded the fact. We know that during the conflict records were made of names and locations when the British buried their dead on the battlefields. Intriguing to think that there may be more information about these burials lurking somewhere in various records. Any thoughts on the above would be appreciated.

Norman

[frankyboy77]

Hi

Norman

I think that I have upset someone or other unless, everyone is waiting for December meeting.?

Have contacted my MP, no reply nothing from any news papers, none of the family have heard anything!

I feel neglected, Or should I, no news is good news will have to wait????

Frank

[Seadog]

An understandably quiet period at the moment Frank as we have received confirmation that those who have been contacted and replied have taken this up with the MOD plus the Shadow Secretary of Defence who has tabled questions on the subject and the situation has been made known to the All Party Parliamentary War Heritage Group from whom we await a reply. I think you are right in that “no news is good news” right now!.

Best Regards

Norman

[Graham Smith]

Further letter from my local MP today that encloses a letter from The RT Hon Mark Francois MP Minister of state for Defence Personnel welfare and Veterans.

I am unable to scan the content, however, I would paraphrase it as follows.

1. He confirms that the remains of what are believed to be British service personnel are still with the CWGC in France.

2. His staff continue to work with the CWGC, French local authorities and the York & Lancs museum in order to identify them.

3. The Joint Casualty and Compassionate Centre (JCCC) primary role is that of casualty notification and the provision of support and advice to service personnel and relatives regarding current *casualties.

4. Due to current *conflicts the work of the JCCC is restricted and limited staff resources can be assigned to commemorative and historical Identification work.

5. It may be some time before work on this historic case can be concluded.

Make of that what you will.

* My own addition/emphasis to the letter in what I belive are the important restrictions he makes on the identification of the BL15....In other words we have to deal with the families of modern day conflicts before we take on the historical stuff and as we know that is not even due to conclude until 2014 (fingers crossed)

[SiegeGunner]

The repeated citing of the primary role of the JCCC in relation to current casualties is irksome and akin to emotional blackmail, as there is no objective reason why there should be any conflict between current and historical casualties. Other countries, notably the USA, seem to cope perfectly well with both.

[Seadog]

Same old boring excuses dragged out time after time. The fact is that the MOD have not used DNA profiling to attempt the identification of our found WW1 soldiers and the great success of Fromelles has them running scared. Just think about the dozens of WW1 soldiers human remains buried as "Known Unto God" in the last few years and contemplate how many of those would have the dignity of a named grave if DNA and other techniques had been applied. If the department cannot cope as seems to be the case then change it!!, hardly rocket science is it? Remember also that £50 Million Pounds has been earmarked for the 100th anniversary commemoration so use a very small part of this by commissioning the experts who did such good work with the Pheasant Wood soldiers. If nothing is done about the BL-15 then rest assured we can kiss goodbye to attempts to identify any future discoveries and the authorities might just as well bury the finds as "Unknowns" immediately.

Regards

Norman

[ianw]

If the JCCC is prioritising its work with current casualties that's fine. But if so a new department needs to be established to deal with the casualties of earlier conflicts. As has been said the USA and Germany have no problem with this. Why does the MOD think it can treat the dead of earlier wars in this shabby way?

[Seadog]

Agreed Ian, does it not come down to this that if we as a country have a covenant with those who lay their lives on the line for us no matter how long ago, do we not also have the responsibility to do everything in our power and use whatever techniques are available to ensure that where possible we have discharged our part of the bargain by doing all we can to give the dead the dignity and honour of a name on a headstone in perpetuity. If we cannot do this then what have we become as a country and how can we look our armed services in the eye and tell them we will not forget them if the ultimate sacrifice is made for us.

Regards

Norman

[Chris Noble]

Seems like my local MP, Alec Shelbrooke is once again dragging his heels. Local paper I think is my best option. Maybe still a bit 'Red Faced' after some of his comments on Twitter.

I will keep keeping on as they say.

Chris.

[Chris_Baker]

Got a paper reply from my MP, attaching a letter he has had from the MOD. All same stuff as above ... JSSC ... current casualties ... blah.

[glosterman]

If the JCCC is prioritising its work with current casualties that's fine. But if so a new department needs to be established to deal with the casualties of earlier conflicts. As has been said the USA and Germany have no problem with this. Why does the MOD think it can treat the dead of earlier wars in this shabby way?

No one should begrudge the MoD / JCCC supporting the families of those killed and injured today.But 2 people to action all historic case work is not enough. Having spoken about commemorating the start of WW1 Mr Cameron should put his money where his mouth is and either fund additional posts in the JCCC to undertake historic casework, or set up a new team to handle this work.

KH

[Seadog]

Of course Kevin we do not lay the blame for the current state of affairs at the door of the individuals who are no doubt doing their best to cope with the workload. The blame belongs to the faceless mandarins of the MOD who hide behind a wall of secrecy and to an extent the CWGC who whilst they are both responsible for overseeing the excavation of remains when possible and are the custodians of such remains will not divulge even the basic information with regard to the discoveries. Whichever way we look at this there cannot be any excuse for the appalling delay between find and burial plus the apparent total lack of any investigative techniques DNA etc in an effort to identify the fallen. Surely this situation cannot continue for we know that historically over 40 cases still await investigation (of sorts) and whether this number relates to individual sets of remains or cases is not even clear. The BL-15 case will be I believe a watershed in the way that the finds are treated and we must not forget that as well as the BL-15 the remains of the 6 British soldiers found 2008-2010 are also stored by the CWGC.

Regards

Norman

[Seadog]

Latest news, PM Cameron announces £100 million investment to set up nationwide DNA database which will eventually hold genetic details of all British citizens

Quote:

"Mighty archive to 'unlock the power of DNA"' – Cameron

What with this £100million plus the £50 million already set aside for the 100^th anniversary and Mr Cameron’s enthusiasm for the use of DNA it should be a simple step to use such profiling for the BL-15, should it not?.

Norman