new bodies have been found ....Beaucamp ligny

[frankyboy77]

Happy New Year

I 'm missing from 23/1/13 to 29/1/13 , other knee replaced ,Hope by then we will be aware of the meeting's .

I shall be looking forward to reading all about , the powers at be have cocked up and excuses they have come up with .

I would like a very good outcome to the situation we have been in up to the presant time

So lets hope I will have a good report to give to the family , When we meet again in Manchester, Easter weekend ?

The Hotel bills are mountain up do you think I can claim them back from the JCCC

Regards

Frank

[Seadog]

Frank I think you have missed this one out! hopefully there will be a decision soon, mind you as we are now in the FOURTH YEAR of inaction by the MOD it would pay us not to hold our breath!

Best Wishes

Norman

[Graham Smith]

A friend of mine has just received this reply from his MP

I have now received a response from Mark Francois MP, the Ministry of Defence Minister with responsibility for veterans, regarding World War One Soldiers found in France. I have attached a copy of his letter for your information.

Mr Francois has confirmed that the remains are still with the Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC) in France, and that officials from the Joint Casualty and Compassionate Centre continue to work with the CWGC, French authorities and the York and Lancaster Regimental authorities to identify them.

You will be pleased to know that a burial in France is planned for 30^th June 2014. Where it is not possible to identify remains before this date, the Minister has stated that a small service will take place for each set of remains, which will be marked with a headstone marked “Known unto God”. Work to identify the remains will continue after burial, and a named headstone will be erected should they be identified.

I do hope this information is useful, and I am pleased that work is continuing to indentify our soldiers.

Best wishes,

Margot James MP

So it would appear a date has now been set and matters have to be concluded in 15 months........Remind me again when these soldiers were recovered !!!!!

Disgrace is a word that doesn't even begin to describe the way these men are being treated.

[Seadog]

We are waiting for the results of the meeting held this month to decide whether or not DNA matching can be applied to the BL-15 and if so whether it will be used. I have to say that if the answer is negative then sadly in my opinion we can kiss goodbye to any future attempts at identification of the dead. The fact that the burial (sic) is planned for 2014 the 100th anniversary year is a crude and inane attempt to use the interment of the BL-15 as part of the so-called commemorations which to my mind is sick. You may find this thread of interest where based on current information I have estimated that including the BL-15 there could be a total of 70 sets of human remains "stored" by the CWGC awaiting the frankly pathetic efforts of the MOD to attempt any form of identification before releasing the remains back to the CWGC for decent burial.

Still Unburied

http://1914-1918.inv...ic=189570&st=25

PS The answer is 2009.

Regards

Norman

[martin14]

You will be pleased to know that a burial in France is planned for 30^th June 2014.

Gee, you would think they could wait until Aug 4th and make a real mess out of it.

[ianw]

Gee, you would think they could wait until Aug 4th and make a real mess out of it.

Yes, there is no logic associated with the date chosen - other than to effectively "bury" the troublesome DNA ID question before the 100th Anniversary commemorations start.

Cynical.

[Seadog]

The fact is Graham (Post 405) that the MOD were in possession of all the relevant research supplied by both the regiment and a member of this forum no later than 2010. From then until 2012 nothing was done until our friend Frank (Larrett) whose Grandfather could be one of the men found started making waves followed by members of this forum like yourself who to their credit added their voices to the growing volume of those concerned with the way that both these men and all the rest were being treated. In fact it was not until 2012 that Frank was informed by telephone via the regiment that the bodies would be buried without any attempt at ID plus a request that he refrain for sharing this news with the press. All this was then followed by the "confidential" news that the MOD was now going to look at the use of DNA. So to recap, no action 2009-2012 followed by pressure from many sources culminating in the possibility of DNA profiling against a list of probable existing relatives of the fallen which was supplied in 2010. Have no doubt that were it not for the efforts of those concerned these men would have been buried as "unknowns" by now and nobody would be any the wiser.

Norman

PS What about the rest a possible 55 outstanding cases.

[frankyboy77]

Hi All

I last night received a text from a Mark at The Sunday Times I tried to contact him no joy from hospital .I contacted the Surgeon this morning to see if I could could come out today instead of Monday,

I had a funny feeling that some think was up , I tried again this morning ,So it looks as if we will have to wait till Monday **** *** under handed ***** are trying it on again I will get him at the office on Monday morning

As far as I 'm concerned I will not hold back :devilgrin:

Larrett

still a bit rough only had knee replaced Thursday afternoon.

[Seadog]

Take care Frank and get well soon. The Sunday Times sounds very promising. Looking forward to hearing from you, keep up the pressure.

Best Wishes

Norman

[frankyboy77]

Hi Norman

spoke to Mark Sunday times , I was a bit late for Sunday paper ,he told me he had spoke to M.O.D .they would send some one over to Arras to TRY to get a D.N.A , then try to find any family's still alive.?

It seems that they only want to speak to the papers not the family's, they have our familey and must have my address ,Ihave wrote to them enough!!!!.

Its been 3.1/2 years since they found the 15 ,and now they are sending a team over,"""""" it stinks to me after all that ben said ,

#and all that whe work that MEL did are they all idiots ??????? ,or what does the Poppy mean anything to Powers at Be

Regards

Frank

[Seadog]

Frank as I understand it this is very good news indeed. It appears that the MOD has decided to use DNA profiling where the fallen are suitable for such a technique. As for tracing the families our member Mel Pack did I believe considerable work on this aspect so a lot of information must already be available. I have no idea what the Sunday Times has to do with all this though it could be that they have picked-up the story from your local newspaper and then contacted the MOD. If everything is as it seems then this is just the result that we have all been waiting for although no doubt like you I would very much like to see this in writing or confirmed by a third party which hopefully will happen shortly. You personally have played a pivotal role in this case and I congratulate you on your efforts and perseverance.

Best Wishes

Norman

Added: I have contacted Peter Doyle of the All Party Parliamentary War Heritage Group requesting confirmation of the news.

[PBI]

I do hope that the MOD and CWGC will be their usual Helpful and Transparent serlves when it comes to Notifying the Public regarding the Times,DatesPlace,etc regarding the Interments of the Casualties in 2014.As for the seeming reluctance of the MOD to attempt DNA iD of these Men just what is their problem ?..As usual they have trotted out the same old excuses time and again to whit..Money,Money,Money,more like total Apathy and disinterest on their part.Re the Money side of their Argument,surely with all the Defence Cuts in the Forces there would be ample funding available for such a small Number of Casualties requiring DNA Identification.I note that there didnt seem to be a problem with Funding of the Fromelles Project,can someone enlighten me as to why this was ?.

The Projected Date of the Interment of these Men is without doubt as already pointed out is going to be a "Highlight" of the Governments projected Intention to Remember the Great War,no doubt the accompanying Media Interest will enhance the Govts and CWGCs standing in the eyes of the Public.I really fail to see how the MOD can offer a convincing reason or Argument as to why it steadfastly mantains a totally negative attitude towards attempt to divert Funds and Time to finally giving some of the BL-15 their Identities back.

[Seadog]

So King Richard 3^rd has been identified using the latest techniques including DNA profiling, excellent work from all concerned remains found September 2012 and identified February 2013. 15 British soldiers found 2009 still awaiting attempted identification 2013 what a way to treat our fallen.

Norman

[PBI]

In my own Opinion Norman,the MOD are going follow one of 2 Paths,firstly they will follow their tried and tested "Mushroom" Method,which is to keep every one in the Dark,release NO information about the Casualties,Issue standard replies to questions from Joe Public and MPs,wait until interest has dwindled and the Casualties finally forgotten,then quickly bury them without further ado,and if they (MOD) are discovered to have done this they will issue usual disclaimer saying the Date & Time of Interment was Posted on CWGC Web Site (Usually,well after the event had taken Place)..End of Story...Minimal amount of expense incurred,Expensive DNA testing avoided,and more than likely all 15 sets of remains buried under 1 Headstone,again incurring minimal expense.

Second Scenario,could possibly involve the sets of remains being stored until ready to become a part of the Series of events planned by the Govt to mark the 2014 Great War series of Commemorations,but even if this is the scenario i doubt wether any attempt at DNA or any other type of Identification will be attempted by the MOD.They will far too busy arranging for the British exit from the Afghan debacle,and no doubt Public attention will be suitably occupied elsewhere.

[Seadog]

You could well be right if you are then they may as well sack those employed to undertake attempted identification of our found fallen and save even more money!.

Norman

[frankyboy77]

Hi Norman. All

Just received a e/mail from a very good friend, at the moment no names no pack drill.Its all systems go !!

There will be a full D.N.A. test, give us a few days and all will be reviled.

I can't tell any more at the moment .So please trust me at this time then all will be reviled, even I 'm ecstatic at the news .

Regards

Frank

we have hopes for Larrett yet

[Seadog]

Great News Frank please ignore all my previous posts criticizing the glorious MOD and their band of wonderful workers to whom we should all be eternally grateful!!

PS A bit of a Freudian slip there Frank "all will be reviled"

Very Best Wishes

Norman

May the light of eternal understanding shine for ever on the MOD

[keithmroberts]

What we will never know is who within MOD had to fight for the fund for the DNA work, and what went into that. Given the work done tracing descendants there must be every hope that several at least of the bodies will finally be identified.

Keith

[Seadog]

Agreed Keith but surely in the context of the MOD budget then the cost for this case must be miniscule and it is the responsibility of the MOD to make every effort to identify the found soldiers prior to instructing the CWGC to arrange an appropriate funeral. Let us not lose sight of all the other cases still awaiting deliberation which may in total amount to 70. On the subject of identification then in my opinion if King Rich 3 can be found, exhumed and identified in 6 months then the BL-15 should be accorded the same level of investigation and urgency which would be no more that they and all the rest deserve.

Norman

[dannyboy1807]

http://www.cwgc.org/news-events/news/reburial-of-nz-soldier-at-messines-ridge.aspx

[Seadog]

This is excellent news and the fact that this case has been dealt with in such a short timescale is no doubt entirely down to the efforts of the New Zealand authorities in confirming the nationality of the fallen soldier. Sadly if this were a British soldier then at least another three years would pass before he was accorded the dignity of a proper burial in a war cemetery. Messines Ridge War Cemetery is well worth a visit if you are in the area and I hope that anyone who is nearby on the 25th February will pay their respects to this man for it is the least that he deserves.

Messines Ridge War Cemetery

This shows just what can be done when the will is there.

Norman

[Seadog]

For Information and transparency

Sent today

The Chairman

All Party War Heritage Group

Dear Lord Faulkner

Ref: Found British Soldiers Human Remains

I have already contacted the Group via Mr P Doyle with regards to the proposed action that the MOD intend to take to attempt identification of the 15 British Soldiers found at Beaucamps-Ligny in 2009. My last request for an update on this has not been responded to for whatever reason so I respectfully ask that you update me with the current situation. On the topic of dead British soldiers found on the battlefields my best information is that there are up to a possible 70 such sets of individual remains stored by the CWGC and waiting deliberation by the MOD after which they will be released to the CWGC for decent burial in a war cemetery. I hope you will agree that no right-minded person can be happy with this situation and it would appear that the MOD are incapable of expediting their responsibilities toward our discovered dead in a proper manner befitting their sacrifice.

A final point on this subject, you will I hope be aware that a recent “find” had been reported by the Sunday Times as the possible remains of Lieutenant-Colonel Angus Douglas-Hamilton VC and the CWGC are in possession of these remains. Perhaps you will check with the MOD exactly what plans they have to confirm or disprove the identity of the deceased as I have grave doubts as to whether these remains as all the others will receive the treatment that they so richly deserve. Lastly I am addressing these points to the Group because there is a complete veil of silence and secrecy over the information available to the British public on this most important aspect of the so-called compact that we as a nation are supposed to hold with our armed forces.

Thanking you in anticipation of a response

[Seadog]

Again in the great tradition of the MOD a deafening silence has descended over this case. Will they, won’t they? who knows. Not even the All Party War Heritage Group chaired by Lord Faulkner as this response indicates.

Thank you very much for your message. I am sorry that we haven’t yet been able to get a response to you. We are on the case and are awaiting a reply from the Ministry of Defence. Either Peter Doyle or I will come back to you as soon as we hear anything.

With kind regards,

Richard Faulkner

Regards

Norman

[Seadog]

There follows the very latest situation compiled from a trusted source. Although as yet there is no official statement from the MOD it is my opinion that all those forum members who have both expressed an interest in this subject and in particular all those who have contributed by lobbying MPs etc should be kept appraised of just what is happening. My own view is that there will be no news released from the MOD to the media or indeed any mention of this case on the appropriate website. I will not be surprised if the next thing we know will be in 2014 when the CWGC announce the exact reburial date and any details that the MOD deem necessary to share with the general public.

1.0 Funding has finally now been released for a full identification programme to be undertaken.

2.0 It looks as if the profiling of the remains will be completed in the next 4-6 weeks.

3.0 The project will focus on the 58 missing 2nd Battalion Yorks & Lancs men who were killed in action between 18-25 October 1914 but have no known graves.

4.0 The 15 recovered sets of remains are currently the subject of a detailed forensic anthropological assessment to establish physical data concerning age, height etc. DNA samples are to be extracted for profiling so that comparative analysis can be conducted with samples from the living relatives of the missing.

5.0 It is hoped that as many of the 15 can be identified as possible so that they may have named graves.

6.0 All the men are to be interred in the same graveyard (possibly the new cemetery at Fromelles) on the centenary of their deaths in October 2014 with full military honours and family members present.

Regards

Norman

[Seadog]

Purely by coincidence I received this at 1600 hrs today which appears to confirm the actions which will be taken but is at variance with the proposed date of reburial in the above post.

Norman

Great news so WELL DONE everyone! (That only leaves about another 50 awaiting the pleasure of the MOD)