new bodies have been found ....Beaucamp ligny

[Tjap]

Can I draw the attention of readers of this thread to the "Captain Pritchard" thread in "Soldiers".

The story of the possible discovery of Captain Pritchard's remains is rather unclear at the moment but most interesting.

Can you give us the link please Ian?

Thanks,

Howard

[Seadog]

Thanks Ian for bringing this to our attention:

Here is the link

Click

Regards

Norman

[JOVE23]

A previous post indicated that a set of Sergeants stripes have been found on the remains of one of the B-L 15. I realise that this is "Long shot" but I wonder if the man is one of these Sergeants recorded on the Ploegsteert Memorial with a DOD of the 18th October 1914. I have no idea whether their regiments were involved in the fighting around Beaucamps-Ligny in 1914 and perhaps a member will be able the assist with this.

William Kearney

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=872051

James Kent

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=869201

Joseph McGowran

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=869915

Walter Smith

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=868608

Regards

Norman

Hello Norman,

According to the news reports, the lone cap badge that was discovered belonged to the Yorks and Lancs regiment. Unfortunately, it does not appear that any of these men were a part of that regiment. As the CWGC site does not appear (to me at least) to allow wholesale searching of the database (i.e., sans name), we shall have to consult the Y&L War Diary or other contemporary sources.

Regards,

Justin

[River97]

Justin,

The CWGC Debt of Honour may not, but Geoff's Wonderful Search Engine sure does.

Here is the link.

Cheers Andy.

[JOVE23]

Justin,

The CWGC Debt of Honour may not, but Geoff's Wonderful Search Engine sure does.

Here is the link.

Cheers Andy.

Wow! That is indeed wonderful. Unfortunately, there are no Y&L Sergeants who were killed on 18/10/1914-20/10/1914.

HOWEVER, earlier in this thread there were reports of paraphernalia belonging to an officer. The only officer I discovered that matched all this criteria is:

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=1560418 2Lt. Hubert Kirkby Peace, 3rd Btn., Linconshire Regt. (but attached to the 1st Btn.)

"Son of Hugh Kirkby Peace and Emmeline Peace, of Sheffield; husband of Grace Mary Simmons (formerly Peace), of Thurgoland, Sheffield."

http://www.1911census.co.uk/search/results...px?x=1081635599 Here is a search through the 1911 census; If someone wants to pick up the trail of Lieutenant Peace I would be most grateful. I would assume the Hubert V. Peace is our man's son or younger brother? I couldn't find a trace of his mum, sadly.

MORE EDITS:

Our man's mum had no daughters, but I don't know about sisters, here is a search page for her. I believe she is the 1848 birth: http://www.1911census.co.uk/search/results4.aspx?x=758472805

Also, in "The Bond of Sacrifice," it says that our man Lt. Peace was wounded on 16 October 1914 and died the next day from wounds. Who should we believe, the CWGC or this book?

[KevinBattle]

Justin: As you're new to this, may I direct you to read the thread from the beginning, particularly post #132 for list of Y&L men. Lt Peace is also mentioned therein.

The reference to Officers paraphernalia is in regard to Captain Pritchard HAC, see the link in #177.

[JOVE23]

Justin: As you're new to this, may I direct you to read the thread from the beginning, particularly post #132 for list of Y&L men. Lt Peace is also mentioned therein.

The reference to Officers paraphernalia is in regard to Captain Pritchard HAC, see the link in #177.

I guess I got a little carried away!

Anyway, my original assessment minus Lt. Peace stands; None of those Y&L men were Sergeants at the time of their demise.

[dycer]

Norman(seadog)

You and I have countered each other regarding found bodies, subsequent MOD responsibility and CWGC care.

To be honest,I care little because, by accident of birth,I have an Uncle,who is mentioned on the Arras Memorial.

He may,of course,be lying undiscovered,assuming any of his body remains,to be discovered,after 90 years but as far as I am concerned,his Brother,my Father.consigned him to History.

My Father,in his lifetime,never had any desire to visit Arras,to see his Brother's Name,or visit the area,of France,his Brothers lost their lives,in defence,of my Father's ideal.

I honestly cannot appreciate why DNA samples will connect a post WW1 generation with their WW1 forbears and so fortify/energise them.

I recognise,however,how DNA samples from WW1 casualties,can assist the 21st Century Population.

George

[ianw]

George(Dycer),

I think we owe a primary duty of care to the casualties rather than any relatives. They deserve being given back their identities in death. With respect none of us can possibly comment on your Father's attitudes but whatever they may have been, they should have no influence on identifying the remains of your uncle were he ever found.

Having given their lives in the service of their country, these men deserve decent treatment and in my opinion this includes establishing their identities if reasonably possible.

[dycer]

Ian,

I agree.

However,cannot get past my own self-argument that had DNA been available to the parties recovering bodies in the immediate post-WW1 War years,many bodies would now rest in named graves.There is clear evidence,on the Forum,that the immediate post-War generation took a great interest in the care and remembering of their loved ones e.g. the Newsreels of the unveiling of the Menin Gate,Vimy Memorial,etc.It seems reasonable to suggest that they would have been willing to supply DNA samples.

Norman has proposed that the RBL bear the cost of funding DNA sampling.I do not share this view,the RBL and Help for Heroes require all their funding to to deal with today's casualties.It could be argued that the National Lottery is best placed to fund such a proposal but personally I would not wish to see this Organisation involved in such an initiative.

Although I am crossing over to another topic.Given the publicity that currently surrounds the successful identification of Fromelles casualties I would assume that many of their descendants may not be able to personally fund a trip to France, from Australia, to visit the relevant grave.Are the Australian Authorities being expected to fund such a trip?If so was this funding available to Families who made pilgrimage visits to France and elsewhere, in the 1920's?

I would prefer that DNA samples were routinely taken from recovered bodies,this fact publicised, allowing interested parties now or in the future to submit their own DNA sample so that they can either make a self-funded poignant or general interest visit to France and elsewhere.

DNA is a relatively new science and I'm not certain if its worth has yet fully been appreciated, in medical and other advances.A general database of DNA samples taken from WW1 Servicemen may therefore, become invaluable,in the future.

George

[deano]

Melpack your inbox is full. My last PM was sent prematurely ! I hit the send button by mistake !

The images i have are of -

7589 Andrew. J.W.

10356 Pearson. Albert,

7689 Darrington ( Linton ), G.E.

Lieut. Peace. H.K.

Dean.

[James]

This subject really needs more public exposure. Why because there is a fundamental need to review how we treat the WW1 war dead.

The Fromelles case has highlighted the media interest in these stories which makes for great shots of granny X being told that they have found her daddy who she last saw when she was a baby! Further though I feel that there is a genuine desire of the public at large to find out who these men were.

A final point in favour is that if these men are being treated as serving soldiers then we as a country have a duty to them to make a best effort to identify them. What if 3 bodies were found beside a vehicle in Afghanistan badly decomposed and all identification removed. Imagine the outcry if the MOD shoved them in unidentified graves saying ' it's a bit expensive this DNA business so we can't identify the bodies'

Against this are the costs involved in proper excavation and identification (money and time costs).

However the precedent has been set with the Fromelles project and I personally feel that this should apply to all future cases.

A special team who oversee all discoveries and are responsible for exhumation, identification and subsequent reburial should be set up.

These however can only be set up with public support and public pressure on MP's to take action.

James

[PBI]

And as per usual the CWGC and MOD have remained totally and utterly silent regarding this very important discovery.I daresay that if Joe Public in the UK became fully aware of the BL 15,that there would without doubt be a lot of Public and Media interest generated,and this would in turn start of the requests for DNA testing and attempts at IDing these Men..something that i feel that the MOD are not really interested in bothering with,maybe due to costs,paperwork etc...as i have stated before i suspect that the MOD/CWGC are keeping quiet on this,so eventually this discovery will be all but forgotten about and the BL15 can be quickly and quietly buried with the minimum of fuss,public exposure and dare i say it Financial expenditure.

[dfaulder]

This subject really needs more public exposure. Why because there is a fundamental need to review how we treat the WW1 war dead.

>><<

These however can only be set up with public support and public pressure on MP's to take action.

James

I would suggest that we keep an eye on what the candidates in the current (UK) election are saying. Although the system is corrupt and, outside the marginals, our vote has little effect, we can at least raise awareness.

One of the also-rans in my (safe seat) constituency published on his blog that he had "signed" the RBL Armed Forces Pledge; the logical thing seemed to be to challenge him to carry through this commitment and support identification of all war dead - referring him to this thread. (He has) When the other mainstream candidates have responded to my query about the RBL Pledge, I will then challenge them also to carry through on this commitment.

Say about 2000 mainstream candidates transfers to 1000 blogs - this could mean 1000 challenges (and hopefully a similar number of commitments). It might get noticed by the press - and if they start asking CWGC "what's this all about" we may see change.

David

(still optimistic - for some unknown reason)

[Seadog]

My own opinion remains unchanged, the whole situation is pathetic and the part played by both the CWGC and MOD is indefensible. This is a response that I have received from the CWGC French Office to my query as to why there was NO notification of the discoveries made to the UK press, the BOLD type is mine.

Thank you for your response.

For CWGC, It is not common practice to make any kind of publicity on this subject. The English Press is not informed about such matters, and this case will not make an exception to the rule. Furthermore, the UK MOD is the only official body which is in a position to make a decision on the communication of this kind of event. Communicating such event is not CWGC Policy. However, please be assured, that all measures will be taken to honour the memory of these soldiers

Nelly POIGNONNEC

Communication & Public

Relation Supervisor

Commonwealth War

Graves Commission

France Area

5 - 7 rue Angèle Richard

BP 109

62217 BEAURAINS

FRANCE

tel : + 33 3 21 21 77 00

fax : +33 3 21 21 77 10

E-Mail : nelly.poignonnec@cwgc.org

[richardIII]

Well that reply is a total cop out. It finishes by saying "all measures will be taken to honour the memory of these soldiers". Well some of us might like the chance to honour the memory of these soldiers when they are buried and we are being denied the chance, so how can the CWGC be taking ALL measures when they don't keep the public informed. It might not be in their remit but a phone call from their press office would'nt hurt.

Richard

[Seadog]

I must admit that the contents of the email from the CWGC in France came as a surprise to me insofar that it contains yet again the old lame excuse that the media notification of discoveries such as the B-L 15 is not their responsibility but is that of the MOD. You would have thought that it would be a simple matter of the two organisations simply talking to each other to enable a press release to be made to the UK media, unfortunately even this task seems to be beyond their capacity.

Consider this, the remains are at present at the CWGC Arras awaiting collection by the MOD, the CWGC employ and presumably pay the wages of an “Exhumation Officer” whose role it is to be involved in the proper removal of the soldiers remains and the Commission also employs a “Media Manager” who has great delight in producing a “Blog” on the CWGC Fromelles web site.

Given all of the above surely someone at the CWGC can take a lead in ensuring that the news of such an important find is released to the UK media. Finally here is an example of how things should work and whilst not WW1 it does show how the Germans treat our fallen when they are found in their country.

Newspaper Article

Regards

Norman

PARITY OF TREATMENT FOR THE BEAUCAMPS-LIGNY 15

AN END TO THE VEIL OF SECRECY IN PLACE AT THE CWGC

[PBI]

Hi Norman and co,interesting to see that the BBC are broadcasting a new series titled History Cold Case,looking at the first programme,i was surprised to find that remains dating back to the 13th Century can still yield up DNA,plus the actual likeness face of the deceased can be reconstructed using the larest techniques.If these techniques and applications could be applied to a WW1 Discovery,surely even more information could be gleaned from the relativley new WW1 Remains.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00sd9kl

[AIF]

1st Sergeant George Humphrey 6th Marine Regiment:

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...c=75373&hl=

[SteveMarsdin]

"1st Sergeant George Humphrey 6th Marine Regiment"

Found as he was left, incredible detail with the boots, bandoliers etc. Interesting point about information not been released until next of kin give permission.

[PBI]

Excellent News to see this Mans remains being found and given the appropriate and justly due attention...just glad that the Grave Robbers never got their disugsting tainted hands on him.

[Seadog]

I have no doubt that there exists today both the scientific tools such as DNA matching and the wealth of research information that is now available both via the internet and from the skills of researchers such as those talented individuals who contribute to the forum that will make identification of the remains of the newly discovered a distinct possibility.

The problem as I see it is that the two prime organisations involved i.e. CWGC and MOD have reached a watershed in their procedures and can either ignore or embrace the new methodology and data available to them. Sadly right now the deafening silence from both organisations with regard to the B.L 15 is leading me to suspect that there is a complete lack of will to embrace such techniques and of equal concern is the total lack of any information regarding in particular the subject of this thread being placed in the public domain.

Regards

Norman

PARITY OF TREATMENT FOR THE BEAUCAMPS-LIGNY 15

AN END TO THE VEIL OF SECRECY IN PLACE AT THE CWGC

[DRIFTER]

I have read the various discussions, difference of views and opinions in this thread and have tried to divorce my personal feelings as the grandson of one of those with no known grave. Personal feelings aside there is a duty of care not just to the remains of those who were killed for 'King and Country' but to those few who are still living who were deprived of a parent.

Having been involved in some way with the charity and not-for-personal-profit sector for over 20 years, including establishing and being for 8 years the hon. chairman of a not-for-personal- profit foundation, I also studied the information available from the Charity Commission. It would appear that if a charity, probably but not necessarily a charitable association were to be registered for public benefit, possibly but again not necessarily for the purpose of 'education' regarding victims of war, then it could access charitable funds, employ people to carry out research, lobby for release of information, carry out PR etc. etc. etc. It is an option for those who feel strongly enough to put in hours of non-financially rewarding work. From personal experience and I'm sure others will agree, it is hard work, takes a great deal of time, can be massively frustrating for 90% of the time but rewarding for 10% of the time.

This is the offer, subject to my being available (I'm not always in the UK), if no better qualified person is willing to provide the basic setting-up process information I will do so. It will however be up to others to become the legal management of any resulting organisation – I just do not have the time and am often out of the UK, however I may be able to offer some advice based on past experience.

[PBI]

Morning All,i have just viewed a Documentary entitled "Iron Coffin"..James Fenwick from Arbroath,Scotland was drowned while serving in the Union Navy when his Ship the USS Monitor sank over 150 Years ago.He has now been succesfully Identified by researchers working in the USA who used DNA and Isotropic Testing.Maybe the MOD/CWGC should get the Americans on board !!! when it comes to carrying out accurate and exhaustive research.

[James]

But that would involve foreigners! GOOD GOD MAN it's bad enough having to ignore the public far less dealing with the French - but Colonials?