new bodies have been found ....Beaucamp ligny

[Seadog]

Will members please also visit this new thread on the BL-15 which most certainly deserves our support:

Identification of the BL-15 (Skindles) GWF

Please note that you must be a member of "Skindles" to access this thread.

Thanks

Norman

[JimSmithson]

Shouldn't the said thread be brought out of Skindles as it has a most definite Great War theme. It is such good work it deserves a wider public.

Jim

[Seadog]

Jim, please PM Melpack and he will be able to advise you why the thread is purposely included in Skindles. Nothing secretive here but better coming from Mel.

Regards

Norman

[JimSmithson]

I think I can guess. The heat is making my brain work a little slowly.

Jim

[James]

Link to skindles thread does not apear to be working.

Previous post was tongue in cheek!

[Seadog]

James that is my fault, you have to join "Skindles" and I believe that you must have a minimum number of posts in order to do so. I have edited my link post.

Regards

Norman

[Seadog]

Another update!...............The new thread on the possible identification of the BL-15 is now OUT of Skindles and accessible to all.

Link here:

Norman

[Guest IPSTech]

notification test

[dfaulder]

notification test

Well I saw this on VNC but no email

Settings:

David

[Guest rutland1265]

Dear All,

Guess I am a little late on this thread.

The man below is my late Great Grandfather. If I can be any help please get in touch. Incidentally my father bears the same name.

Henry Kirkby Peace

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=1560418 2Lt. Hubert Kirkby Peace, 3rd Btn., Linconshire Regt. (but attached to the 1st Btn.)

"Son of Hugh Kirkby Peace and Emmeline Peace, of Sheffield; husband of Grace Mary Simmons (formerly Peace), of Thurgoland, Sheffield."

http://www.1911census.co.uk/search/results...px?x=1081635599 Here is a search through the 1911 census; If someone wants to pick up the trail of Lieutenant Peace I would be most grateful. I would assume the Hubert V. Peace is our man's son or younger brother? I couldn't find a trace of his mum, sadly.

MORE EDITS:

Our man's mum had no daughters, but I don't know about sisters, here is a search page for her. I believe she is the 1848 birth: http://www.1911census.co.uk/search/results4.aspx?x=758472805

Also, in "The Bond of Sacrifice," it says that our man Lt. Peace was wounded on 16 October 1914 and died the next day from wounds. Who should we believe, the CWGC or this book?

[Seadog]

A fellow member has kindly sent me the link to a BBC Radio programme broadcast on the 13th November 2011. The programme concerns the finding and attempted identification of the found remains of British Soldiers in France. It is extremely interesting and it shines a light on many areas of the procedures which have until now been difficult to ascertain.

BBC Radio - Known Unto God

A few quotes from the programme:-

The CWGC Exhumation Officer is Julian Barnes based at the CWGC office in Arras.

The CWGC state that about one or two finds per month of the remains of soldiers happen in Northern France.

The MOD state that at present they have 40 cases of the remains of the British Armed Forces and that in France there are 20 such cases outstanding.

The programme is available only until the 20th November and I urge those members with an interest in the subject to listen to it while they can.

Norman

[Ian C]

Thanks for the link Norman.

Regards

IanC

[Seadog]

It’s a pleasure Ian, for a long time there has seemingly been a reluctance by the authorities to make public some of the aspects of the care and identification of the newly discovered fallen and this programme certainly answers some of those questions.

Norman

[keithmroberts]

It 's a shame that the item mentioned above is no longer available. I am just catching up with the forum after a month overseas and would have dearly liked to listen to it.

Keith

[Seadog]

Keith it is a pity that the excellent audio programme was not made available for longer and that the CWGC did not make any attempt to obtain the agreement of the BBC in order that a permanent link could be added to the Audio Video facility on the CWGC homepage. The programme covering as it did a less than well publicized and important aspect of the Commissions work and I believe that they have missed a trick here. The audio did however confirm the existence of the CWGC Exhumation Officer the position which has been mentioned many times on this forum and also gave some indication as to the number of human remains found plus the fact that the MOD has 20 such cases outstanding.

In respect of these I think that it is very unfortunate to say the least that the 15 sets of British soldiers remains found at Beaucamps-Ligny in 2009 have not yet received the dignity and decency of interment in a CWGC War Cemetery. In fact this Christmas will be the third such occasion that these men have languished in wooden boxes on a shelf in the premises if either the CWGC or MOD and surely no decent-minded person can be happy with such a situation that treats our countrymen in such a manner.

Regards

Norman

[keithmroberts]

Norman

I think that you have to recognise that the commission see their task as having such a long timescale, that they will not be hurried. It was also interesting to see their press release in November seeking descendants of an identified WW1 officer casualty. I'm not sure where or when his body was found. They move slowly, but do seem to make an effort and I am sure that remains held in store are treated respectfully pending reburial.

Having said which I am writing to suggest that the annual report should state each year how many casualties from previous wars have been found and passed to the commission in thatyear, and how many have been reburied, with details from previous years as well. I think that might help to keep some gentle pressure in place.

Keith

[Seadog]

Keith I understand that the CWGC have no responsibility for attempting to identify the human remains of servicemen found on the battlefields. I believe that this is the sole responsibility of the MOD in which case I see no reason to alter my opinion that the way that these remains are treated leaves a lot to be desired and the time-scale between discovery and eventual burial is completely unacceptable. Added to which is the almost total lack of transparency regarding the finding and eventual treatment of such remains as evidenced by the subject of this thread which I reiterate has received no media coverage in the UK whatsoever via one assumes a press release from the MOD despite being reported in European media.

Regards

Norman

[Seadog]

This is my reply to posts to the below thread, which I believe are are also applicable to this one:

http://1914-1918.inv...howtopic=178978

Frank, you have done well in obtaining the response that you have kindly posted for us regarding the human remains of WW1 British soldiers found on the battlefields and still awaiting the dignity and decency of burial in a War Cemetery. Any of my comments that follow are of course in no way directed at you or the efforts that you are making in respect of the Beaucamps-Ligny 15. The number of 13 outstanding WW1 cases is mentioned; well there are 15 from France and 6 from Belgium which already exceeds the total quoted by 8 so where the figure of 13 comes from is a mystery. The bit about the “backlog” being caused by the Fromelles situation sounds very much like an excuse to me and it is worth reminding ourselves that if I remember correctly not one British soldier serving in the Brtish Army was identified from the original burial pits though I stand to be corrected. As for the 40 total outstanding cases presumably the balance relates to WW2 or other conflicts but no further details are given.

My view is that the British MOD are completely failing in their duty of care towards those who gave their lives during WW1 in that the resource level allocated is pathetic comprising as it does of TWO people dedicated to the task if identification of our dead. I have no doubt whatsoever that the unacceptable timescales and lack of any media press releases in particular of the two cases mentioned above is a deliberate policy now adopted by the MOD primarily caused by the success achieved in the identification of the Australians at Fromelles and the cost of such an exercise which used DNA matching on such a scale and so good a result that it has created a precedent which the MOD would rather ignore and no doubt wishes had never happened.

Regards

Norman

[frankyboy77]

Hi Norman

We have been through all this before, the D.N.A that was promised I have not heard anything more, I did speak to Mel Pack in about October 2010 about it I have spoke to him about D.N.A on the male side I'm from the female side.

again we have not heard anythink , Life seems to move very slow on the Powers to be if we in the working side of life would not have a Job for long!!.

This upsets me that much as my grandfather like thousand others gave their lives for their Countrys and the fodder are left because there his only two people to do the job.

Yet we give millions of aid, etc yet we can only have two persons to help the LOST soldiers of 1914/18 WW1 and WW2 and the current conflicts .

Sorry Norman a pet hate I did work at War Office in the 50s !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards

Frank

[Seadog]

Frank you have nothing whatsoever to feel sorry about as your frustration at the apparent lack of any progress with the BL15 is completely understandable. I was interested to hear from you that the use of DNA matching was promised somewhere along the line and seems now to have fizzled out. I have every respect for the work that our fellow member Mel Pack has put into this particular case which is in itself a very important one indeed as it would seem the fallen are likely to date from the very early part of the war and indeed could be Old Contemptibles”.

My problem is Frank that the almost total lack of transparency regarding not just this case but all those in the hands of the MOD both now and in the future leads one to the conclusion that there is an official veil of secrecy being drawn over the issue as a deliberate policy of the MOD and by association the Government. Happily we have moved a little way with the CWGC who now publish upcoming interments on their website whereas in the past the found soldiers would have just been buried without the rest of us having any knowledge of this at all.

I have put in a Freedom of Information request to the MOD for the exact details of all of the outstanding cases resting with the department at Innsworth and I will post this as and when I receive it. Have you contacted your MP on the specific matter of your relative, if not may I suggest you do so.

Best Wishes

Norman

[towisuk]

"I have put in a Freedom of Information request to the MOD for the exact details of all of the outstanding cases resting with the department at Innsworth and I will post this as and when I receive it. Have you contacted your MP on the specific matter of your relative, if not may I suggest you do so."

Excellent idea to go in through the Freedom of Information act Norman, it does sometimes feel as though one is charging at brick walls. Through my MP I recieved a decent and civil response to some concerns I have about treatment of WW1 remains, from the Battlefields heritage group at the House of Lords. But the MOD was a different thing altogether, it wanted me to contact the local Government officials in Ypres etc and produce all the evidence, and do all the work that they should be doing!

regards

Tom

[Seadog]

Thanks Tom I will keep my fingers crossed, what if a few thousand GWF members did the same, that should focus the minds at the MOD!

Here is my request:-

Please inform me of the following:-

The actual total number of individual soldier’s found human remains in respect of World War One presently under investigation to ascertain identification by the MOD JCCC / SPVA based at Innsworth, Gloucester.

Example:

25 in total

The actual number of individual soldier’s found human remains by case and country of origin in respect of World War One presently under investigation to ascertain identification by the MOD JCCC/ SPVA based at Innsworth, Gloucester.

Example:

15 sets of remains found France 2009

1 set of remains found Belgium 2010

Etc

The figures for World War Two as above.

The figures for all other conflicts as above.

Link (I used the email request)

http://www.mod.uk/De...tionRequest.htm

Norman

[towisuk]

Lets hope you get a reply to your request Norman, and thank's for the link, I'll stick that in a folder for future use if they are slow in forthcoming in replying to your questions posted above.

I can see why the establishment hate things like the internet, more and more things are coming to light that would have remained covered-up in the past. Also forums such as ours attracts like minded people that have mostly the same goals, and can organise far more easily than we could have done before the communication revolution.

The fact that Newspaper magnates and Bankers have been run to ground due to electronic records of their despotic and greedy behaviour have been found on mobile phones, proves that it is no bad thing.....this revolution in the electronic communications network.....

(But we have yet to see the Establishment punish wrongdoers....maybe if they wore hoods and trainers action would be taken...!!!!)

regards

Tom

[Seadog]

I agree Tom all this 24/7/365 flow of information and apparent transparency comes to nothing if the authorities do not act to rectify any problems and improve their working practices. In my opinion no official organization is immune from comment and constructive criticism of their perceived faults and must have a mechanism for addressing the concerns of us, the public. All such organizations must be held accountable for their actions and I include the CWGC in this who to their credit have improved through their web site and news letter plus notifying us when and where interments are to take place of the found soldiers. There is however plenty of room for improvement such as the simple act of recording the fact on the database that the 60+ unidentified soldiers buried in Cement House War Cemetery were found during the excavations at Bozinge likewise with all other new interments.

The MOD however is a different matter altogether and I remain convinced that there is a deliberate policy of secrecy regarding the treatment of the found soldiers remains, just one example, there is no direct email link to the JCCC at Innsworth in an age when such methods of communication are essential to any organization. Plus of course the complete ineptitude or official policy of not releasing details to the press of the discovery of soldiers remains in particular the BL15 (2009) it was ridiculous that we had to rely on our French friends to post the details published in the French media.

Regards

Norman

[frankyboy77]

Hi Norman All

I have had another go at my local paper 'Sheffield Star',a photograph was taken and published have tried to down load it to you but unable to.

In the interveiw I made it clear I had been in touch the Prime Minister.

Published on Tuesday 30-10-12

THE grandson of a Great War hero from Sheffield has contacted Prime Minister David Cameron inprotest at a delayin identifying remanains of old soldiers found on a battlefield site almost a centuryafter they died.Frank wood is unhappyno action has been taken to test the skeletonsof 15 soldiers,threeyears after they were dicovered at Beaucamps-Ligny,near Arras in northern France .

Mr Wood aged 77,of Woodhouse Mill, said his grandfather,Lance Coorporal Larrett Roebuck, died on October 18 1914 leaving a wife ,son and three daughters.

His body has never been found-but the family'shopes were raised following the discoveryof the soliers'remains in 2009.

Now Mr wood is calling for the war graves officialsto confirm whetheror not LCpl Roebuck,who was a professional footballer with Huddersfield Town befor joining upwas one of the men whose bodies

were discovered.

He said:"it has been three years and we are stillwaiting for news.The only thing we have heard is the bodies are at Arras in France.Ihave emailed my MP Clive Betts and the Prime Minister, and contacted Goverment war graves officials. but nothing has happened.In two years time it will be 100 years since my grandfather died it is disgusting they gave their lives to be in a cardboard box sitting in France instead of a grave*

Mr Wood and the six other grandchildren of LCplRoebuckwho lives around the country, are meeting next month to discuss what to do next. Mr Woodis hopeing for a reply from Mr Cameronin the mean time.

He said The war graves officials have told me theare been held up by the crrent activities in Afghanistan but the Prime Minister has announced £50 million to commemerate the Great War's centenary. Surely some of that money could be to speed up identification of the remains so the heroes can be laid to rest?"

Sheffield South East Labour MP Mr Betts said he happy to try to help pursue the case

Frank

(Larrett)