Queen's Own cameron Highlanders

[mo44th]

Hi Alison

It seems George Petrie transferred to the 36th Northumberland Fusiliers in April 1918 and they were sent to France in May 1918. They served at first as a Garrison Guard Battalion on defence construction duties. They were attached to 178 Brigade of the 59th (North Midland) Division which underwent training in July 1918 for front line duties. They took part in the Battle of Albert (21-22 August 1918) and the Final Advance in Artois and Flanders (2 October -11 November 1918).

The Long Long Trail Website will tell you more. Here is a link to the 59th Division page http://www.1914-1918.net/59div.htm

Hope this helps

Patrick

Hi Patrick,

Once again thank you so much for your information. I am slowly but surely building up quite a comprehensive picture of my Grandad's army career and you have answered a couple of crucial questions. Now I shall follow the link you have kindly suggested and see where that leads me. (I really should get out more, I am becoming an anorak)

Regards

Alison

[Scotty65]

Hello Ian

Thanks for your kind offer, im trying to find out any info on my Great Uncle

9447 Private Robert MILLAR, D company, 1st Bn Cameron Highlanders, who died age 21,on 26 March 1915, he is buried in the Niederzwehren Cemetery

i would love to know how and where he died, ive downloaded the 1st Bn war diary but on the date of his death the Bn were resting at Hingette

i presume he was wounded, and he died of his wounds on 26th March 1915 ?

any help would be greatly appreciated

Yours Aye

Scott

[ianmccallum]

Hi Scott

Bit of a mixed bag I am afraid. 6992 Pte. R. Miller appears on a list of missing Camerons from the 14 September 1914. There is no other mention of him in any of the lists. There are scores of notifications of wounded soldiers dying in POW camps and in fact there are a half dozen notifications of such around the time he died but no sign of him. If you go to the CWGC website you will see the cemetery is largely made up of men who died while prisoners. Confirmation of such in the magazines would have been great but i've been throught he lists a half dozen times but there is no sight of any notification. The Red Cross in Switzerland were heavily involved in the notification process they may be able to help.

Ian

[ianmccallum]

Hi Scott

I am sorry No 6992 should read No 9447 Pte. R. Miller appears on a list of missing Camerons from the 14 September 1914.

Ian

[Scotty65]

Hi Ian

Thanks for all your help, its greatly appreciated,

ive just realised that Niederzwehren cemetery is a pow cemetery

things are now starting to fit in place

thanks very much

Yours Aye

Scott.

[Seoras Miller]

I was wondering if there was any mention of my Great Grandfather John Suttie 40959 who was with the 7th Camerons. He died on 26/04/1917.

What info can you get from visiting Fort George in person ? Do you need an appointment ?

Cheers

George.

[Patrick Watt]

I was wondering if there was any mention of my Great Grandfather John Suttie 40959 who was with the 7th Camerons. He died on 26/04/1917.

What info can you get from visiting Fort George in person ? Do you need an appointment ?

Cheers

George.

Hi George

I just looked at John Suttie's Medal Card and it seems he was in the 4th Camerons prior to being transferred to the 7th. I am researching the 4th Camerons and can try to answer your queries on them.

I think John Suttie must have enlisted round about October/November 1915 probably into the 2/4th Camerons at Ripon. I think therefore that he must have gone to France probably in the draft of 4th Camerons replacements in July 1916. HE then would have been transferred to the 7th Camerons before the end of 1916.

I have the 15th Division History so can look up around the time of his death to see what the Batt were up to.

Just let me know

Patrick

[Seoras Miller]

Patrick , Thanks for taking the time to respond to my query. I didn't realise that my Great Grandfather had been in other battalions prior to the 7th. I assumed that he would have joined up in Inverness. I take it that he would have been recruited in Inverness but that the 2/4th were based at Ripon at that time ?

Because he died on the 26th April I assumed tht he may have been killed on the Arras offensive (possibly 2nd battle of the Scarpe) ? Any info that you can give on this would be gratefully received. If he is buried at Duisans does this suggest that he died of wounds rather than killed outright ?

Are there any other sources that might shed light on his career ? eg medal rolls as opposed to the medal card ?

Any help as said will be gratefully received.

Cheers

George

Inverness.

[Rob Bulloch]

George. This is from the 7th Bn diary.

April 25th 1917.... Arras front line. Battalion relieved the 10th SR in the front line from Cambrai Road to about 300 yards south, the Companies being from left to right C,D,B and A Coys.

April 26th 1917.... At 10.30 am the 44th Brigade advanced to the attack, one objective being Cavalry Farm and the German trenches to the east of it. The advance was made in two waves, A and B Coys in the firstwave , and C and D Coys, in the second wave 20 yards between the waves. The advance reached the farm without much difficulty, where they found the trench very strongly held, and at the same time a machine gun opened fire on the left, coming from the trenches the 46th Brigade had failed to capture. The Battalion was forced to withdraw, leaving a strong point on the German line and another small post to the east of the farm. The remainder withdrew to our original position.

April 27th 1917....Arras Front Line. About 2.00 am orders were received to try and reorganise the attack. This idea was given up when it was learned that the 46th Bgd on our left had failed to attain their objectives. Officers and patrols were sent out to try and establish posts to link up with the Black Watch who had advanced and made posts. This endevour failed. At 10.30.pm the Bn was relieved by the Seaforths moving into support in the OB trenches and Shovel Trench.

April 28th 1917....Arras Front Line. Support Line. The Battalion was relieved from the support line by A Coy of the 3rd London Regiment at 9.30.pm.

Casualties in opperations from the 23rd to 28th April.. 4 Officers and 78 other ranks killed..249 other ranks wounded..42 other ranks missing..3 other ranks died of wounds.

Aye Rob.

[Seoras Miller]

Thanks Rob , Pretty grim reading though !

Would you know if he died on the 26th and was buried at Duisans would this indicate that he could have been wounded and cleared within that time frame , or is it possible that he could have been killed on the action of say 26th and still buried at Duisans ?

Any help is gratefully received

Cheers

George.

[Kate Wills]

Ian,

Have you come across any mentions of battalion concerts?

Thankyou

Kate

[dhubthaigh]

Ian,

Do you have anything on the following casualty

Name: McKAY, EWAN

Initials: E

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Cameron Highlanders

Unit Text: 1st Bn.

Date of Death: 11/11/1914

Service No: 9901

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 38 and 40.

Memorial: YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL

Thanks

[ianmccallum]

Hi George

No sign of your man Im afraid. Give Ft George a call if your planning to go there.

Ian

[ianmccallum]

Hi

I've been up and down the casualty lists a dozen times in both the January and April editions but there is no sign of a Ewan McKay. There must be a couple of dozen other McKays in both the Killed in Action and wounded lists. I checked both incase he died of wounds. The 11 November 1914 was the day the Prussian Guard broke through at Zonnebeke Wood with the 1 Camerons taking many casualties. Its not unusual to see men missing from the caualty lists.

Ian

[ianmccallum]

Hello Kate

I can't say I have came across any concerts though to be honest i've never looked specifically. They might get a mention in the 2nd line units notes. I will keep my eye out from now on. Is there any specific dates or places you are interested in.

Ian

[Seoras Miller]

Ian , Thanks for looking for me , I must go along to Ft George at some point ,

Cheers

George.

Hi George

No sign of your man Im afraid. Give Ft George a call if your planning to go there.

Ian

[Patrick Watt]

Hi George

The 1/4th Camerons (the front line unit) was over as a fighting unit by the start of 1916 but still received recruits up to March 1916 when their men were transferred to Number 1 Entrenching Battalion near Ypres. Some 100-150 men were left over as a Battalion Nucleus in Etaples and acted as a Depot (19th Infantry Base Depot) from where more recruits were sent to the 1st, 5th, 6th and 7th Cameron Highlanders.

As I mentiond, judging by his service number, your man joined up sometime in October-November 1915 so would have still bee training at the time of the 1/4th's demise. A large draft of men was sent to the Cameron Depot in July 1916 and I would imagine your man was one of them. He would then have gone in one of the August-October drafts to the 7th Camerons.

I think then, that his service with either the 2/4th or 3/4th Camerons would have been just for training purposes. They recruited from all over the Highlands and Yorkshire so I would imagine he would have enlisted in Inverness and then gone down south. Here are the movements of those two units during the War (from the Long Long Trail),

2/4th Battalion

Formed at Inverness in September 1914 as a second line battalion.

January 1915 : attached to 2nd Seaforth & Cameron Highlanders Brigade, 2nd Highland Division. Moved to Fort George in April 1915 and Blair Atholl in July, going to Aberfeldy in October 1915.

October 1915 : formation became 191st Brigade in 64th (2nd Highland) Division.

Was called No 3 Battalion between November 1915 and January 1916.

Moved to Norwich in March 1916, going on to Blickling Park (June), Kelling (July) and Cromer (October 1916). Disbanded in February 1918.

3/4th Battalion

Formed at Inverness in April 1915 and moved to Ripon in November 1915.

8 April 1916 : renamed as Reserve Battalion at Ripon.

July 1916 : disbanded.

As for when your man would have been killed....the 7th Camerons were in action at the Battle of Arras on 23 April 1917 and again on the 26th. Conceivably he could have been wounded at any point on those days or in the two days between. I just checked his death entry on the ScotlandsPeople site and it says he died of wounds at 19 Casualty Clearing Station. Perhaps one of the other forum members can give you an idea of the timescale of how long it would take a wounded man to get to a CCS.

Hope this is of some help

Patrick

[Kate Wills]

I can't say I have came across any concerts though to be honest i've never looked specifically. They might get a mention in the 2nd line units notes. I will keep my eye out from now on. Is there any specific dates or places you are interested in.

Thankyou Ian. Any entertainment news, and particularly, concerts put on by the troops themselves, would be very welcome.

[dhubthaigh]

Hi

I've been up and down the casualty lists a dozen times in both the January and April editions but there is no sign of a Ewan McKay. There must be a couple of dozen other McKays in both the Killed in Action and wounded lists. I checked both incase he died of wounds. The 11 November 1914 was the day the Prussian Guard broke through at Zonnebeke Wood with the 1 Camerons taking many casualties. Its not unusual to see men missing from the caualty lists.

Ian

Ian, thats a pity thanks for looking. I looked at the LLT and the date Ewan fell coincides with the Battle of Nonne Boschen. Was the action youe mention part of that ?

rgds.,

Mark

[Seoras Miller]

Patrick , Thank you again for taking the time to respond and sharing your knowledge/understanding of what the Camerons were doing around the time of my Great Grandfathers death. It is greatly appreciated.

Cheers

George.

Hi George

The 1/4th Camerons (the front line unit) was over as a fighting unit by the start of 1916 but still received recruits up to March 1916 when their men were transferred to Number 1 Entrenching Battalion near Ypres. Some 100-150 men were left over as a Battalion Nucleus in Etaples and acted as a Depot (19th Infantry Base Depot) from where more recruits were sent to the 1st, 5th, 6th and 7th Cameron Highlanders.

As I mentiond, judging by his service number, your man joined up sometime in October-November 1915 so would have still bee training at the time of the 1/4th's demise. A large draft of men was sent to the Cameron Depot in July 1916 and I would imagine your man was one of them. He would then have gone in one of the August-October drafts to the 7th Camerons.

I think then, that his service with either the 2/4th or 3/4th Camerons would have been just for training purposes. They recruited from all over the Highlands and Yorkshire so I would imagine he would have enlisted in Inverness and then gone down south. Here are the movements of those two units during the War (from the Long Long Trail),

2/4th Battalion

Formed at Inverness in September 1914 as a second line battalion.

January 1915 : attached to 2nd Seaforth & Cameron Highlanders Brigade, 2nd Highland Division. Moved to Fort George in April 1915 and Blair Atholl in July, going to Aberfeldy in October 1915.

October 1915 : formation became 191st Brigade in 64th (2nd Highland) Division.

Was called No 3 Battalion between November 1915 and January 1916.

Moved to Norwich in March 1916, going on to Blickling Park (June), Kelling (July) and Cromer (October 1916). Disbanded in February 1918.

3/4th Battalion

Formed at Inverness in April 1915 and moved to Ripon in November 1915.

8 April 1916 : renamed as Reserve Battalion at Ripon.

July 1916 : disbanded.

As for when your man would have been killed....the 7th Camerons were in action at the Battle of Arras on 23 April 1917 and again on the 26th. Conceivably he could have been wounded at any point on those days or in the two days between. I just checked his death entry on the ScotlandsPeople site and it says he died of wounds at 19 Casualty Clearing Station. Perhaps one of the other forum members can give you an idea of the timescale of how long it would take a wounded man to get to a CCS.

Hope this is of some help

Patrick

[dhubthaigh]

Ian,

Anything on the following casualty ?

Name: DAVIDSON, ROBERT

Initials: R

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Cameron Highlanders

Unit Text: 6th Bn.

Age: 18

Date of Death: 02/10/1915

Service No: S/14829

Additional information: Son of Mrs. Margaret Davidson, of McGavins Land, Invergowrie, Dundee.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 119 to 124.

Memorial: LOOS MEMORIAL

Thanks

[ianmccallum]

Hi

He is listed among those who Died of Wounds. The entry from the Bn Diary states that on 1 Oct the battalion, on its way back from battle of Loos went into billets at La Bussiere. On 3 Oct moved into billets at Allouagne. If your man died from wounds and then the grave was lost, he must have died very soon after being wounded and was buried on or near the front line. Hope his helps.

Ian

[dhubthaigh]

Hi

He is listed among those who Died of Wounds. The entry from the Bn Diary states that on 1 Oct the battalion, on its way back from battle of Loos went into billets at La Bussiere. On 3 Oct moved into billets at Allouagne. If your man died from wounds and then the grave was lost, he must have died very soon after being wounded and was buried on or near the front line. Hope his helps.

Ian

Thanks Ian, appreciate that.

rgds.,

Mark

[Windsongchelsea]

Hi Guys

I have the original magazines covering 1914 - 1918 inclusive. The detail is amazing especially for the first eighteen months and especially for the two regular battalions. If anyone wants a look up feel free to get in touch.

Ian

Hi Ian

My Grandad was in 1st Batallion Queens Own Cameron Highlanders Frederick McAinsh. Do you have anything about him please. I think he was in Dundee before this and then went from there. It would be great if you had anything to pass on to my Mum who never knew her father

Regards

Sue

[James]

George,

If you are planning to visit Fort George you must give them a ring first. Explain what you are looking for and arange a suitable date.

They will look out their copies of the relevant war diarys and any other pertinent stuff. (war diarys have apendixes which often include after action reports which will flesh out the bare entry.)

Once there you get free access to the fort - go straight to the regimental museum. Once there you will find the staff very helpfull indeed.

I went last year when researching a relitive in the 6th cameron highlanders who incidently was at Arras same time.

They were able to provide war diary, a book about the cameron batalions in the war which gives info such as medal winners, oficers who served , kia etc.

they also have a limited collection of trench maps including some of Arras 1917. (One issued to an 7th bt officer who was sadly killed in the battle).

They also have a photocopier - spent two afternoons there and could have spent longer.

Regaring time from wounding to arival at a CCS once found by medics it would be quite quick enemy action permitting certainly within hours. however if he was not found for hours or days yhat would delay matters considerably. He could have survived at the CSS for several days.

All of which means it is almost impossible to find out when he was injured unless you have more data ie family diarys mention in war diary etc.

hope this helps

james