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Queen's Own cameron Highlanders


ianmccallum
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Hello Andy,

Old Soldier here with an interest in WW I soldiers killed from the Sunderland area. I notice that you state that John Marlborough Scot is buried in Grangetown Cemetery, while this can be regarded as correct and is the name given in Sunderland Civic Centre Webpage I think you will find that at CWGC the cemetery is know as Sunderland (Ryhope Road) Cemetery and they claim there are 157 Identified Casualties - (both 1st & 2nd WW).

The CWGC like to keep their records up to date and it would seem there are more headstones of soldiers in the cemetery by at least one. If you contact them it is likely that they might update their records at some point and if there is any further information available then they are likely to be able to find it.

All the the best for the New Year

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Guest John Retired

Good Morning Ian. My grandfather JOHN ROSS born in Glasgow was in the QOCH from 1914 to 1919 and serverd as part of the Territorial Force in France. I would appreciate a look and the material you have. Please let me know if this is possible. I have attached a picture of my grandfather. I have several artifacts given to me but the pictures of them are too large to upload. If anyone would like the photos I will be pleased to send them. My grandfather attended THE MAYHILL BARRICKS AND FORT GEORGE, for training.

Thanks

John Frame

Torontio Canada

jsleepyhollow123@rogers.com

post-95756-0-04301900-1357316705_thumb.j

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Hi James,

John is not buried in Sunderland, the cemetery records make no mention of him, he is only commerated on his fathers headstone. It would be very unusual for him to have been repatriated to Blighty after his death as the Falklands was the first time we had ever done that, as far as I am aware. Also, if he was repatriated why would he have a death certificate for Sunderland?

Andy

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Andy

it was Sl who thought that's where John was buried - post 251 not me - quite agree highly unlikely to have been repatriated.

However my thought was reference the other John Scott we discussed earlier - with the death certificate you can rule him out completely (or not). With this kind of investigation ruling out the possibilities (however unlikely) will eventually leave you with the solution.

I understand what you have said regarding the mention on the headstone however my doubting mind thinks that may be a mistake. The other alternative is that he enlisted under a diferent name but there does not appear to be any candidates.

I wish you well with your search and hope you eventually find the truth.

James

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Hi George

The 1/4th Camerons (the front line unit) was over as a fighting unit by the start of 1916 but still received recruits up to March 1916 when their men were transferred to Number 1 Entrenching Battalion near Ypres. Some 100-150 men were left over as a Battalion Nucleus in Etaples and acted as a Depot (19th Infantry Base Depot) from where more recruits were sent to the 1st, 5th, 6th and 7th Cameron Highlanders.

As I mentiond, judging by his service number, your man joined up sometime in October-November 1915 so would have still bee training at the time of the 1/4th's demise. A large draft of men was sent to the Cameron Depot in July 1916 and I would imagine your man was one of them. He would then have gone in one of the August-October drafts to the 7th Camerons.

I think then, that his service with either the 2/4th or 3/4th Camerons would have been just for training purposes. They recruited from all over the Highlands and Yorkshire so I would imagine he would have enlisted in Inverness and then gone down south. Here are the movements of those two units during the War (from the Long Long Trail),

2/4th Battalion

Formed at Inverness in September 1914 as a second line battalion.

January 1915 : attached to 2nd Seaforth & Cameron Highlanders Brigade, 2nd Highland Division. Moved to Fort George in April 1915 and Blair Atholl in July, going to Aberfeldy in October 1915.

October 1915 : formation became 191st Brigade in 64th (2nd Highland) Division.

Was called No 3 Battalion between November 1915 and January 1916.

Moved to Norwich in March 1916, going on to Blickling Park (June), Kelling (July) and Cromer (October 1916). Disbanded in February 1918.

3/4th Battalion

Formed at Inverness in April 1915 and moved to Ripon in November 1915.

8 April 1916 : renamed as Reserve Battalion at Ripon.

July 1916 : disbanded.

As for when your man would have been killed....the 7th Camerons were in action at the Battle of Arras on 23 April 1917 and again on the 26th. Conceivably he could have been wounded at any point on those days or in the two days between. I just checked his death entry on the ScotlandsPeople site and it says he died of wounds at 19 Casualty Clearing Station. Perhaps one of the other forum members can give you an idea of the timescale of how long it would take a wounded man to get to a CCS.

Hope this is of some help

Patrick

Patrick , I've been off topic for a while but reading your excellent book on the 4th has reignited my interest. So much so that I now am planning to make a pilgrimage for my 50th birthday later this year to Etaples and Arras. I have a Great Uncle who is buried at Etaples (killed 12th HLI) but Etaples is also of greater interest now as it is probably where my Great Grandfather arrived following training prior to being drafted to the 7th Camerons later in 1916.

I have a query regarding your reply from 2009 regarding my Great Grandfather John Suttie 4065 / S40959 - You mention that his service with the 2/4th or 3/4th would have been for training purposes ? On the roll part of his medal card it says B14 I thought (perhaps incorrectly ?) that this would have suggested that he joined the 1/4th in Inverness ?

Is this correct that he would have joined into the 1/4th ? Or did they simply join the 4th Battalion at this point - rather than 1/4th ?

I am very interested to know what and where (and how long) his training would have been prior to going overseas in 1916 ? Embarkation point ? If he was trained with the 2/4th or the 3/4th is there any way to find out which as I am intrigued to know what his journey to war and death entailed ? Was there any 1/4th training depot , or was that what part of the function of the other sub battalions was ?

If the 4th were a Territorial Battalion , does this suggest that my Great Grandfather was a Territorial or would he have purely responded to a poster like the one in your book which may have motivated men to go in advance of their call to ensure being in their local Town Battalion ?

With regard to visiting Arras in late October - can you offer any advice on getting guidance that would give a more personal perspective on the Cameron's contribution to this bloody episode ?

Any information you can offer on this will be gratefully received ! As mentioned , Fantastic book ! Sitting in Inverness reading the correspondence within it is scary.

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George

I belive that when they compiled who was entitled to medals etc they got the information from the unit they first served overseas with. (in this case the 1/4th Bn).

My own Great Uncle went from the Lovat Scouts thence to the 6th Bn via the 4th so ended up with 3 seperate numbers in quick sucession.

To get a look at the war diary you could try visiting Fort George near Inverness. The museum there has the 7th's diary as well as the regimental history

From 15th Div history:

7th Bn was a part of 44th Brigade 15th Div.

On the night of the 19/20 the Bde took over the line and spent the next 2 days preparing for the forthcomming attack on the 23rd 7th camerons were kept in Arras till nearer H hour.

44th Bde was on the right of the divisional front with the task of capturing the blue line including the village of Guemappe. One Bn the 8 Seaforth was tasked with this village. 7th Camerons was on the left and were to advance pass to the north of Guemappe then extend to the right as far as the Cojeul river, advance and capture the blue line from the river to Cavalry farm. preparatory to capturing the Red line. They were to be followed by 9th Black Watch. Simples.

H hour 0445

The village and line was unsuprisingly strongly held by the Germans. When they advanced they inclined left too much leaving a gap between themselves and the Seaforth. 9BW advanced too soon and filled the gap resulting in the center of the Bde advance becoming a mixture of all 3 Bns. The advance was checked by heavy artillary and MG fire (including some from the high ground beyond the river) some 300yds west of the village. The seaforths advanced another 100yds. They remained there till about 0730.

By then the adjoining Bde had cleared the enemy from the flanking positions and the 7th Camerons with some BW worked their way around to the North of the Village, this forced the Germans back and the Seaforth were able to advance through the village..

In the afternoon the enemy counter attacked pushing back the adjoining Bde and subjecting the 44th Bde right flank to enfilade fire. The Seaforth were forced to ritire from the village but the 7th were able to hold on to their positions north of the village for a further 4 hours till ordered back to the original German front line just west of the village. The 46th Bde attacked through the 44th and along with it the remains of the 3 Bns of 44Bde were able to regain the ground captured in the morning. They were withdrawn to Div reseve on the night of the 23/24th

On the 25/26th the 44th Bde went back into the front and on the right of the Div line. The enemy was subjected to artillary through out the day and at 1030 the Bde attacked behind a barrage with 7 Camerons Capturing Cavalry Farm during the 27th they held on to their gains against strong enemy attack and eventually the division was relieved on the night of the 27/28.

By that time one 15 div Bn had suffered so badly that one company of the relieving unit had more men in it.

Total Div losses for the action from the 23 was around 3000 and from the whole of the Arras battle just over 6300 out of a starting force of 11932. 7th Camerons suffered 82KIA , 256 WIA and 42 MIA during the period 23 to 28 April.

Hope of some use

James

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George,

Further to my ramblings above you can find information about Trench Maps on the LLT site here:

http://www.1914-1918.net/trench_maps.htm

There is a link to McMasters University which provides free online maps:

http://library.mcmaster.ca/maps/ww1/ndx5to40.htm

The maps you are after are:

1:40,000 sheets 51b grid area N18

1:20,000 sheets 51b SW same area. they have sheets for Mar 1917 (just before the battle and July 17 just after.

1:10,000 sheets 51b SW 2

James

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Hi George

Good to hear from you again. Really glad you are enjoying the book!! Have had a look at your questions, so here goes:

1 - I think the 'B14' mentioned on the medal roll is just an administrative reference, rather than pointing to any specific battalion. Rather, that page of the roll would tell you what battalions he served with, although no further details

2 - I think Pte Suttie's journey would go something like this:

mid-November 1915 - enlisted into the 4th Cameron Highlanders at Inverness

November 1915 - sent immediately to join the 3/4th Cameron Highlanders at Ripon where they were part of the Reserve Highland Division

April 1916 - the 3/4th Camerons were renamed the Reserve Battalion (for the 4th Camerons)

July 1916 - the Reserve Battalion was disbanded and its men sent to France (over 1100 men arrived there in July and August 1916)

11 July 1916 - from my (now more complete) records, Pte Suttie landed in France on 11 July 1916 and would have been sent to the 19th Infantry Base Depot in Etaples (serving the Cameron Highlanders). From there he would, in all likelihood have been sent to and Entrenching Battalion to work on building trenches, communications etc

11 November 1916 - Pte Suttie posted to the 7th Camerons Highlanders

26 April 1917 - Died in the 19th Casualty Clearing Station and buried in the Duisans British Cemetery in Etrun

3 - There was no 1/4th Camerons Training Depot - that was the job of the 3/4th Camerons. They were a reserve formation who trained new recruits, and wounded men back from hospital, up to the standards expected of them in France. The 2/4th Camerons were essentially a mirror of the pre-war 4th Camerons: a TF unit only for service in the UK. They were in Perthshire, then Norfolk and then over to Ireland in 1918-1919. Normally, recruits would have gone first to the 3/4th, then when ready sent to the 1/4th Camerons at the front. However, as the 1/4th did not exist in a fighting capacity as of March 1916, men sent to the front after then went to the 19th Infantry Base Depot at Etaples for further training or posting to an Entrenching Battalion. From there, when needed, they were sent as drafts of men to the 1st Camerons (from May-September 1916) or the 5th, 6th or 7th Camerons from August 1916 onwards.

4 - I think, but am not sure, that Pte Suttie might have joined up under the Derby Scheme and then volunteered to join the 4th Camerons instead of waiting to be called up. 'Soldiers Died in the Great War' says that he enlisted in Inverness and CWGC says he lived there too, so he probably wanted to join a battalion in which he knew people. He was going to be called up anyway so might as well be with your friends.

5 - As for Arras: I would read Lt Col Sandilands History of the 7th Cameron Highlanders and Stewart and Buchan's History of the 15th Division to identify where Pte Suttie went to in the months between November 1916 and April 1917. Certainly the division attacked at Arras on 9 April with the 7th Camerons being the 44 Brigade support battalion on the right of the attack. When the advance was continued on 11 April, the 7th Camerons established a line of posts near Lone Copse beside Monchy-le-Preux. On 23 April, the 7th Camerons attacked the village of Guemappe. There are several good battlefield guides to the area: Colin Fox wrote a Battleground Europe book about Monchy-le-Preux, and there is probably a Major and Mrs Holt's Guide too - all will give good information on how to get to the places you want to see.

Hope this helps. Just let me know if you need anything else.

All the best

Patrick

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George,

Further to my ramblings above you can find information about Trench Maps on the LLT site here:

http://www.1914-1918...trench_maps.htm

There is a link to McMasters University which provides free online maps:

http://library.mcmas...w1/ndx5to40.htm

The maps you are after are:

1:40,000 sheets 51b grid area N18

1:20,000 sheets 51b SW same area. they have sheets for Mar 1917 (just before the battle and July 17 just after.

1:10,000 sheets 51b SW 2

James

Thanks for your two responses. I appreciate that you've taken the time to help me with my journey to find out as much as I can about my Great Grandfather. I hadn't seen the text from the 15th Div diary which is very helpful - I have a copy of the Sandiland's 7th Btn History which is very good but anything that develops that story is welcome. Thanks for the map references - i'll have a look there as I haven't been in that site for a couple of years.

Many Thanks

George.

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Hi George

Good to hear from you again. Really glad you are enjoying the book!! Have had a look at your questions, so here goes:

1 - I think the 'B14' mentioned on the medal roll is just an administrative reference, rather than pointing to any specific battalion. Rather, that page of the roll would tell you what battalions he served with, although no further details

2 - I think Pte Suttie's journey would go something like this:

mid-November 1915 - enlisted into the 4th Cameron Highlanders at Inverness

November 1915 - sent immediately to join the 3/4th Cameron Highlanders at Ripon where they were part of the Reserve Highland Division

April 1916 - the 3/4th Camerons were renamed the Reserve Battalion (for the 4th Camerons)

July 1916 - the Reserve Battalion was disbanded and its men sent to France (over 1100 men arrived there in July and August 1916)

11 July 1916 - from my (now more complete) records, Pte Suttie landed in France on 11 July 1916 and would have been sent to the 19th Infantry Base Depot in Etaples (serving the Cameron Highlanders). From there he would, in all likelihood have been sent to and Entrenching Battalion to work on building trenches, communications etc

11 November 1916 - Pte Suttie posted to the 7th Camerons Highlanders

26 April 1917 - Died in the 19th Casualty Clearing Station and buried in the Duisans British Cemetery in Etrun

3 - There was no 1/4th Camerons Training Depot - that was the job of the 3/4th Camerons. They were a reserve formation who trained new recruits, and wounded men back from hospital, up to the standards expected of them in France. The 2/4th Camerons were essentially a mirror of the pre-war 4th Camerons: a TF unit only for service in the UK. They were in Perthshire, then Norfolk and then over to Ireland in 1918-1919. Normally, recruits would have gone first to the 3/4th, then when ready sent to the 1/4th Camerons at the front. However, as the 1/4th did not exist in a fighting capacity as of March 1916, men sent to the front after then went to the 19th Infantry Base Depot at Etaples for further training or posting to an Entrenching Battalion. From there, when needed, they were sent as drafts of men to the 1st Camerons (from May-September 1916) or the 5th, 6th or 7th Camerons from August 1916 onwards.

4 - I think, but am not sure, that Pte Suttie might have joined up under the Derby Scheme and then volunteered to join the 4th Camerons instead of waiting to be called up. 'Soldiers Died in the Great War' says that he enlisted in Inverness and CWGC says he lived there too, so he probably wanted to join a battalion in which he knew people. He was going to be called up anyway so might as well be with your friends.

5 - As for Arras: I would read Lt Col Sandilands History of the 7th Cameron Highlanders and Stewart and Buchan's History of the 15th Division to identify where Pte Suttie went to in the months between November 1916 and April 1917. Certainly the division attacked at Arras on 9 April with the 7th Camerons being the 44 Brigade support battalion on the right of the attack. When the advance was continued on 11 April, the 7th Camerons established a line of posts near Lone Copse beside Monchy-le-Preux. On 23 April, the 7th Camerons attacked the village of Guemappe. There are several good battlefield guides to the area: Colin Fox wrote a Battleground Europe book about Monchy-le-Preux, and there is probably a Major and Mrs Holt's Guide too - all will give good information on how to get to the places you want to see.

Hope this helps. Just let me know if you need anything else.

All the best

Patrick

Patrick ,

Thank you for such a prompt response , the information you have given me is exactly what I was looking for !

Following your info that my Great Grandfather was trained with the 3/4th at Ripon I did a google search and found an old film from 1916 which included the Camerons at a sports day which is bang on to the period he would have been there. Just to get a feel of the time - the dress , the atmosphere is fantastic - I couldn't believe it when it came up on the search ! And to think that he could have conceivably been there ?

Film link - http://www.yfaonline.com/film/scenes-ripon-highland-sports

also link to film of 4th Camerons at Bedford (before my man's time) - http://ssa.nls.uk/film.cfm?fid=1388

You may have already seen these , they are great for getting a feel for the time.

Back to my Great Grandfather , are the dates mentioned for France Arrival and Transfer to 7th Camerons documented ? Could you tell me where ?

If you can that would be great ,

Many Thanks for your invaluable assistance , and once again thanks for writing the book .

Cheers

George.

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Patrick ,

Apologies , I know you've probably got more to be doing than answering my queries - but

In the 1/4 war diary 1916-1917 Etaples it states in an entry beside 12th Dec 1916 that a "Draft of 24OR posted to 7th Cameron Hldrs with effect from 11.11.16". Does this mean that they actually went on the 11th November and the 12th Dec was merely a diary entry or that they went on 12th Dec to the 7th ?

Cheers

George

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Hi George

The dates 11 July and 11 November were found in the Battalion Roll Book which is kept at Fort George (although I think their museum and archives are closed to the public at the moment). The actual entry reads:

"4065 Private J. Suttie; A Company; to France 11 July 1916; transferred to 7th Cameron Highlanders 11 November 1916 (S/40959)"

I think the draft would have left Etaples on 11 November, probably reached the 7th Camerons a few days later, then the diary entry was written up in December. By that time the 4th Camerons knew the writing was on the war and there seems to have been a fair few backdated entries in the war diary.

I hadn't seen the first film, so thanks very much for that!!

All the best

Patrick

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George,

No problem - the text is a summary of the book by Buchan and Stewart which Patrick mentions I should have made that a bit clearer.

PM me if you want more detail/scans of relevant pages.

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George,

No problem - the text is a summary of the book by Buchan and Stewart which Patrick mentions I should have made that a bit clearer.

PM me if you want more detail/scans of relevant pages.

Cheers James , thanks for clarifying. I must keep an eye out for it.

George.

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Patrick , thanks again for giving me the source details - I must spend some time at the Fort when it reopens , crazy when I only live a few miles away. Your thoughts on the dates in the Etaples diary make sense to me. Glad you liked the film ! After your steer about Ripon I was like a child in the sweet shop when the film turned up - couldn't stop grinning , just didn't expect to see it on top of getting the quality info you gave me.

Cheers , will leave you in peace now - for a wee while anyway !

Planning to visit Duisans Cemetery and Etaples cemetery later this year to pay my respects (haven't been before). If there's anything you want me to do for you - photo's etc just let me know before October. I might focus on trying to find anything on Ripon or Etaples camp next , see if anything turns up like photo's or text.

Cheers

Thanks again.

George.

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The book is available through N&M Press as a reprint/copy. it has (small) maps included in the annexes.

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The book is available through N&M Press as a reprint/copy. it has (small) maps included in the annexes.

James , thanks for the info. I did look it up at work today and thought it was quite pricey but N&M have it at a pretty reasonable £17.60.

I'll probably go for a copy as you get the reading of it and the reference material. Thanks again for directing me to N&M for it.

Cheers

George

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Sorry Jeff

The last mag I have is the October 1918 issue.

Ian

Good morning, Ian.

The 5th Cameron and 7th Seaforth (9th division)have been in our village of Overijse (South of Brussels) after Nov 11th, 1918 before moving to Germany. Do you have some info about this period, for example the War Diaries, so that we can be sure it were these Battalions? We have photographs of some of these troops.

Thank you and greetings

Yves Parmentier

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  • 4 months later...
Guest JamesChambers

Hello Ian,

I was wondering if there is any mention of my Great Uncle William Liddell Chambers in the Cameron Highlander Magazines. I do have a copy of his personal diary that he kept from 1914 until he was wounded on 24 July 1916 he was then commissioned into the Scottish Rifles. From his diary I can see that he was in the 1st Battalion originally B Coy then C Coy. Any further info that you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

James

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  • 1 month later...
Guest Scott line

I've just joined and read the above posts. If Rob is still interested in LCPL Hugh Scott, I have a bit more information, including letters describing the circumstances when he was killed. He was my great uncle. Yes he was a keen on cricket, and was said to have been quite a good bowler. He was very tall and had a "flailing" run up so they called him the "Seagull".

Bev

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Hello Bev. Welcome to the forum. Thank you very much for your kind offer I would be very interested in reading the letter regarding L.Cpl. S/12155 Hugh Scott. Your GU was as you probably know KIA at the battle of Loos. I was in touch with the Wee Tunny Cricket Club and they said they had a photograph of Hugh in their archive. But for some reason they never got back to me!!I would be very interested in any information you have on L.Cpl Scott.

Aye Rob.

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Guest Scott line

Thanks for your reply Rob. I'm happy to provide scanned copies of the letters, but not sure how to attach docs in this forum. Can you advise me, or should I send the email to the GWF team? I also have a photo of Hugh in football gear c 1913.

The text of the main letter is reproduced below - I'll include the whole text because the letter is so interesting. I don't know who the writer was - the typed copy came to me through a New Zealand cousin. She may have transcribed it from the handwritten original - she tended to do that with fragile documents.

"To - Thos. Grey Esq.

Findlay Richardson Co. Ltd

34 West George St, Glasgow.

France. 16th/10/15.

Dear Tom,

How are you all? It seems ages since I wrote last, but we have been very busy.

On the 25th of last month we went in the trenches with 1000 men and came out on the Monday afternoon with 160; so you may judge we had "some" cutting up.

Hugh scott was killed about 30 yds from our own fire trench by a rifle bullet. We buried him on the morning of the 28th.

It was simply awful, our Brigade advanced a mile capturing 5 lines of trenches and a village behind theses, also the two famous redoubts which you have probably read of in the papers.

During the fight we had Gas Liquid, Fire, and "Weeping-shells" against us. (The latter make your eyes water for some time but are otherwise not bad)

We stood for 12 hours up to our knees in water and it simply rained shrapnel and high explosives, before we were relieved early on Sunday morning, then we occupied our original fire line till Monday afternoon when we charged again and with only about 160 men.

Altogether it was a rotten weekend, and I sincerely hope Mr. Cawood has much better ones at Largs this season, but I forget it is October now.

As usual there are strong rumours of furlough.

Have you heard how John Corner is getting on?

Please thank John Murray for his post card which I got safely. Tell Miss Thornton that Eddie Carvie has a shattered knee and posted missing, but not to get "the wind up" as there is a slight chance of his having been brought in. But I think he'll never play football again. I was with him for a long time in the captured village where he was wounded.

Must close in haste

Remember me to all,

Yours sincerely

(sgd) Charlie."

Bev

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Bev Thank you very much for this letter. Nice of you to take the time to post it on this thread.

Aye Rob.

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  • 5 months later...

Hi I'm sorry to ask but I'm struggling with my search regarding my gg uncle who served in the 1st Bn Cameron Highlanders.

S/11802 Lance Corporal George Taylor listed as killed 20/04/16.

Now according to a family friend, who was apparently with him when he was killed in 1915???

The story goes that they were really short of food so left the trench and made their way into a farmers field to dig up some cabbages or something. George was killed when the Germans opened fire.

Now I don't know how true this is as they were both from Stockton Heath in Cheshire, and I never understood how they ended up in the Cameron's. But I do have his photo along with three sweetheart brooches which he (George) have to my Grandmother and Great Aunties.

And also a newspaper article published in 1916 in the warrington guardian telling how he'd died so that others might live. His kilt was also used as a rug as there wasn't a carpet as such.

It also mentions that he'd enlisted at the start of the war and had been burnt in the trenches but returned to the front in 1915. However his medal index only says that he was entitled to the service and victory medals, not the 14-15 star...

I do go on.....

Any help would be fantastic.

Cheers

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