23rd (County of London) Battalion, the London Regiment

[ChrisMead]

Good afternoon all.  

 

It is strange that I should have come across this thread now, having looked over a period of years, but still, pleased to be here.  

 

We are just back from a reburial of my great uncles remains: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9281940/british-soldiers-killed-wwi-buried-france/ and would love to know anything more about him possible.  I understand that his service records were destroyed during WW2 so that avenue came to an end so if any one has any references to Private Frank Mead, 700918, 1st/23rd Bn., London Regiment who died on 03 December 1917 I would be very pleased to hear from them.  We have a few pictures and letters but very little else.

 

I am also struggling to find a picture of his cap badge.  Would anyone have this?

 

Very many thanks.

[clk]

Hi Chris,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

It must have been a very moving event for you and your family.

 

3 hours ago, ChrisMead said:

I understand that his service records were destroyed during WW2

 

The good news is that Frank seems to have 2 sets of surviving service papers on Findmypast - one under his original 3364 number (link), and one under his (1917)  700918 renumber (link). I didn't compare them, but they may duplicate each other. It would be worth going through them, and coming back with any questions that you may have. If you would like a copy of his will, it is available (£10) from here. His Soldiers' Effects record (link) names his sole legatee as his father (Thomas), and the will may only consist of a very few words along the lines of ' in the event of my death, I leave everything to my father'. If you did decide to get a copy, it would come as a low resolution B&W scan of the original, and be sent to you as an email attachment a couple of days after you ordered it.

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

[ChrisMead]

Chris - thank you so much for your efforts.  I had no idea all of this information was so available and I appreciate your reply and guidance.

 

Whilst I understand that you get little for free, it is a shame that they are pay for a period rather than pay for a record, especially when there are three different places to sign up for.  That said, I am excited to see what information I can get back from them when we are able to sign up to them.  Not cheap are they!

[westkent78]

Chris,

 

Welcome to the forum, and the 23rd London thread.

 

I originally started this thread in 2004 when I discovered that my grandfather served with 1/23rd London in 1916. My grandfather was posted to 1/23rd in April 1916, just as Frank did. Unfortunately I do not know which platoon my grandfather was in charge of, but there is a small possibility that Frank served under him.  Frank was in A Company when he was training with 2/23rd in the U.K. but I suspect that he may have been placed into B Company when he joined 1/23rd.

 

Frank attested for the 23rd London Regiment on 18th November 1914 at regimental headquarters, 27 St. John's Hill, Clapham. At the time he was living at 13 Elfindale Rd, Herne Hill and claimed to be a 20 year old warehouseman draper, and was an exceedingly tall 6 ft, 1 inches. (that's the tallest I've seen on an attestation to the battalion so far!). He was issued with service number 3364 and placed in A Company, 2/23rd London which at the time was the reserve battalion for 1/23rd. On 19th June 1915 he was transferred to 108th Provisional Battalion. This was made up from personnel of the 2nd and 3rd line Territorial Battalions not available for overseas service and soldiers of low medical categories, 108th being the battalion that such men of the 23rd London went into.  On 21st January 1916 Frank signed his Imperial Service Obligation which meant he was liable to go overseas and was transferred to 3/23rd on 27th Jan 1916 where he would have waited to go on a draft to 1/23rd on 21st April 1916. He reached 1/23rd in the field on 30th May 1916. Frank survived the activities on the Somme in September/October 1916 relatively unscathed, which was quite an achievement as 1/23rd had horrendous losses, although he did succumb to trench fever in mid October necessitating a stay at the No. 12 General Hospital at Rouen. He was back with 1/23rd on 17th November 1916 after a short stint at 8th Infantry Base Depot, escaping being sent to a different battalion from the Base in the process. He was renumbered in Jan-Feb 1917 as 700918 and remained with the Battalion throughout 1917 until 3rd December 1917, experiencing the hardships of Messines in June 1917 among many others. His personal effects: 2 discs, photos, purse, George II Half crown with Apostles Creed on Back, Cards, Canvas wallet. were received by Thomas Mead on 6th May 1917.

 

I have to correct something that you appear to have been told about the day of his death. 1/23rd were not retiring on 2nd/3rd December 1917. They had moved to Sunken Road trench at 6pm 2nd December to relieve 1/6th London and support 1/8th London's attack. This move was completed by 8 p.m. B Company was on the Fontaine-Bourlon road with the other companies in Sunken Road trench. They were holding position that night and for most of 3rd December.  They were under artillery fire. This is what led to the unfortunate loss of Frank, Henry Wallington, and three other 1/23rd men, one of whom was buried in the recent ceremony [700277 Pte. John James Steele, 703752 L/Cpl. Ernest George Inglis, 703904 Pte. Benjamin Stanborough]. An additional 13 men were wounded. The War Diary lists these casualties as occurring on 2nd December, but I suspect they actually occurred in the early hours of 3rd December which is why their date of death was recorded as such.   At 6 pm on the 3rd the battalion moved to the front line positions on the left of Bourlon Wood relieving 1/6th, 1/7th and 1/8th Londons where an additional 1 O.R. was killed and 12 men wounded. 1/23rd retired from the front line late on the night of the 4th December and had fully evacuated it by 1 a.m. on 5th December.

 

As to 23rd London badges, google "23rd London Badge" and the images section should provide you more than enough options.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Matthew

[clk]

Hi Chris,

 

1 hour ago, westkent78 said:

As to 23rd London badges, google "23rd London Badge" and the images section should provide you more than enough options

 

For me, those images don't compare favourably with the badge being sported in the photo that appeared on the BBC and Sun websites.

 

Image sourced from The Sun website - accredited to The Press Association

 

I guess that it could be that of the 108th Provisional Battalion. I know very little about these things. Might it be worth posting in the 'Uniforms, Cap Badges and Insignia' sub forum to see if the experts there can make a positive ID?

 

Regards

Chris

[westkent78]

Chris,

 

It's the 23rd London cap badge.

 

Interestingly for some reason that is not the badge that CWGC puts on the gravestones of 23rd London. They use 23rd London's other badge with the regimental motto that appears to have only been used sparingly on related paperwork, at least until the mid 1920s. All period cap, collar and sweetheart badges as well as patriotic postcards I've seen use the 8 pointed star derived from the East Surreys. CWGC in the 1920s must have had a reason for using the badge they do use, but personally I'd have thought the cap badge was more appropriate.

 

Matthew

[clk]

Hi Matthew,

 

Thanks for that. I made out a crown surmounting a pointed star, with a hint of an inner ring containing the 'emblem'. The main thing that I wasn't comfortable with was the shape of the scroll. Every day, a learning day!

 

Regards

Chris

[ChrisMead]

Wow.  So many thanks to say - thank you sounds pretty inadequate, but thank you.  Thank you all.  Your continued interest is amazing, as is your knowledge.

 

Thank you for your comprehensive write up for Frank.  The warehouse draiper is a likely family business thing and all of us Meads are pretty tall!

 

I am surprised to hear that Frank was fit enough for the Army, but not fit enough for active service until later.  Presumably the standard was lower later on?  The only envelope we have is the one returned marked killed and my grandfather had addressed him as a Stretcher Bearer - perhaps this explains why he was relatively unscathed for a chunk of the war as possibly an occupation for someone with less than 100% fitness?  

 

I would love to have that George II half crown - I thought that this was likely a mistake as the reign of George II ended in 1760  and whilst the Apostles Creed may have been a talisman it seems like an old coin to have hold of.  Following on, it appears that my great grandfather took possession of Franks War and Victory medals and again I would love to have those.  They are not in the family any longer and I would image long gone.

 

I am embarrassed about the cap badge.  That is my picture of Frank and I should have noticed it.  When I googled it I did see the South Africa Star and discounted it as being wrong.  Plainly it was not. 

 

Chris

 

[Guest]

On 27/09/2007 at 17:01, westkent78 said:

Some of you may be aware of this, but for those who aren't, I am compiling a database of all the men who joined the 23rd Londons in the Great War.

I currently have over 3,000 individuals identified and my nominal roll continues to grow each month, but there is definitely a long way to go.

Any information, however insignificant it may seem, is gratefully received.

If you are researching another regiment and come across someone who served for a period in the 23rd Londons I like to hear from you with any details you care to share.

I am also in a position to undertake look-ups in the war diary, regimental history and 47th Division History.

Matthew

Regarding the database for the 23rd London regiment please add ( if not done so already) my grandfather Sargent George Louis Allen No 3042 kind regards Terry

[barnsleyrunner]

Can I ask a question about the items returned to Thomas Mead, Frank's father?

 

Would the fact that two identity discs were returned indicate that he was buried by comrades in a temporarily-marked grave, later lost during battle?

 

Would the other personal items - the wallet, half-crown etc, been about Frank's person at death and removed by his comrades to send back home, or would Frank have left them at a rest camp when he went into the line?

 

Thanks

[westkent78]

The implication is that he and the others were buried in temporary graves (possibly shell holes?) and their personal effects were 'policed' by their comrades and sent home. The surviving service papers for the other casualties also indicate their effects were returned to their relatives. I'd assume these were taken from their person rather than left behind in a kit bag.

 

Best regards

[barnsleyrunner]

Thank you.

 

Were they not meant to leave one tag on the man for future identification if the temporary grave was disturbed by further action, or was it customary to remove both?

 

On another note, I've been reading the 1/23rd War Diary today and they seem that have had a Christmas Dinner on 23rd January 1917. Any suggestion as to why?

[westkent78]

Yes they were supposed to leave one tag attached. I wonder whether the discs mentioned in the effects were private id discs.

 

1/23rd was in the Hill 60 Sub Sector on the Ypres Salient at the end of 1916, so not much opportunity to celebrate until they were back in Dickebusch Huts. They had at least a three day celebration- C Coy on the 21st, D Coy on 22nd and A Coy on 23rd. No indication when B Coy had their dinner. Perhaps logistics meant they could only cater for one Xmas dinner a day?

[Guest]

I have come across this thread searching for more information on my ancestor Henry Albert Victor Wallington. I could never have imagined the detail I would find regarding his final days. My extreme thanks to the contributions.

 

If there are any further details regarding his service that could be provided I would be extremely grateful. I know he enlisted on the 10th Feb 1916 from his service record, sadly I could find no personal details (height etc). I am not sure at what point he saw active service but know from above he died on 3rd Dec 1917, sadly just before they withdrew from the front. I have a record of him being buried in Louverval, would this have been a memorial or actually contained his remains?

 

Many thanks in advance.

Sally

[kloughnane]

Sally,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Are you aware that Henry Wallington is named on the war memorials at St Andrew's Church on Sandhurst Road, Catford? Along with others, I did some research into this memorial a few years ago and these are my notes on Henry:

 

Wallington, Henry A.V.

Private Henry Albert Victor Wallington, 1^st/23^rd (County Of London) Battalion, London Regiment, was killed in action on the 3^rd December 1917, aged 22. He was the son of Joseph Henry and Edith Wallington of 301 Brownhill Road, Catford. He was born in Peckham and was educated at Hazelbank road School. Prior to the war he was employed as a clerk, but in December 1915 he enlisted in to the King’s Royal Rifle Corps at Finsbury Barracks. He was transferred to the London Regiment and arrived in France on the 16^th June 1916. On the day that he was killed the battalion was to the left of Bourlon Wood and their casualties were one man killed and 12 wounded.

He has no known grave and is commemorated on the Cambrai Memorial, Louverval, France.

 

 

I now need to amend the last line. If you want I can supply you with  photos of the memorials at St Andrew's.

 

Regards,

 

Kev Loughnane

[Michelle Young]

His remains have now beeen identified and he is buried in Hermies Hill cemetery. I am hoping to visit next weekend so can get you a photograph.

 

Michelle 

[Guest]

Afternoon all,

My Grandad was sergeant George L Allen, 3042 / 700753. And from my information was in 'B' Coy 2/23 London. I have a number of photos with names on the back and just would like to share information and hopfuly find out any more information about Grandad.

 

Regards Peter Allen 

[MaxD]

His medal award roll gives the dates of the various periods he spent overseas starting in June 1916.  These are the same as the outline of the battalion's service which can be seen on LLT here:

 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/london-regiment/

 

The war diaries for the battalion are the first three on this page:

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=2%2F23+Battalion+london+WO+95  These can each be downloaded free at the moment.  The war diaries for the Salonika and Palestine periods (the next two) have not been digitised so can be seen or copied at Kew (when re-opened).

 

His service record does not seem to have survived.

 

Max

 

 

 

[Great Niece]

Hello Mathew, I have been researching the WW1 service of my Grandfather, Edward Hodgson who served with 23^rd (County of London) Battalion, The London Regiment between, 13th September 1916 and 28^th July 1918. Hope you are able to add him to your list and/or add some more details to your own research.

From his Service and Casualty, Disembodiment and medal roll forms I have the following:

He was posted and embodied as a Trooper, 14^th August 1915 in Putney with The City of London Yeomanry.  He was part of the Territorial Force as his service number was (TF) 3451.  Details are a bit obscure but it seems he went to France as part of the Yeomanry on the 28^th September 1916.

By October 13^th, 1916 he was transferred to 23^rd London Regiment as part of the 142^nd brigade in the 47^th Division, service number 7078.  He may well have been one of the “Draft of 185 other ranks (transferred from CITY OF LONDON YEOMANRY) JOINED Battalion at entraining point.”  As noted in the 1/23^rd London, war diaries on 15^th October 1916.

He was one of 8 wounded on 6^th January 1917 while in the Hill 60 Subsection Ypres (war diaries) and subsequently shipped back to England (26/1/17) where he was hospitalized in Clacton-on-Sea and Saffron Walden.

Six months later (28^th July 1918) Edward was transferred to the R.A.S.C, service number R390980 part of 6^th battalion Remounts.  He returned to France in December 1918, stationed at 5^th Base in Rouen until 25^th May 1919.  

He was disembodied on demobilisation at Woolwich dockyard 25^th May 1919.  

 

Pre-service, he was a butcher at Smithfield Markets and lived in Islington.  Post service he worked as a removal foreman (with I suspect Jones Brothers Holloway Rd) living in Hornsey Road, Islington until his death from Tuberculosis in 1947. 

I feel very fortunate to have put together some of Edward’s story, often with the help of this forum which has helped me to make sense of military terminology; but would be interested to know:

Why join up with the Yeomanry?  There seems to be no apparent link to in his family history to horses.

I am unable to find any reference to Yeomanry in France 1916; (apart from the 1/23^rd war diary entry) so how /when did they/ he get there?

What were the 1/23^rd doing in canal sub-section and Hill 60 sub-section Ypres?

Is there a way of discerning which company Edward was within 1/23^rd?

What would the remounts have been doing in Rouen (1918-1919)?

Thanks for reading all this – hope it's helpful to others.

Diane

[Guest]

Hello Matthew ,  I wonder if you can help with any detail about Private 2321 John William Parry . He was a translator and dispatch rider in the 23rd London Regiment .

 

Regards Dawn

[Gunner 87]

 

Hello Dawn, welcome to the forum. It appears Matthew @westkent78 hasn't visited in over a year so I thought I'd take the liberty of providing some information about Private John William Parry 2321 who served with the 1/23 (County of London) Battalion, London Regiment. I'm sure you may know the majority of this but in case you didn't, thought it would be of interest.

 

JW Parry's Army Registers of Soldiers Effects, found on Fold3, record he died on the 16th November 1915 at Etaples where there was a British Military Hospital, with the CWGC adding John died of wounds and is now buried in Etaples Military Cemetery, Pas de Calais, headstone location, III. F. 22A.  John was the son of William and Charlotte Parry of Maes Llwyn, Newton Street, Llanberis, Carnarvonshire and as such is also commemorated on the Llanberis War Memorial Cross, see attached, care of the JM Briscoe at the IWM, both of which are readily available online. The Medal Index Card, again found on Fold3 or available for free download at the National Archives at  https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D4530746 record he was posthumously awarded the Victory Medal, British War Medal and 1914 - 1915 Star for service in France. 

 

The War Dairy for the 1/23 London Regiment is also available for free download at the NA covering from March 1915 to May 1919 at https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354570 The events proceeding John's death are covered in detail though it is unlikely to mention him by name. 

 

I also include a link to the article in the Yr Herald Cymraeg which I understand relates to his death https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3460335/3460341/64/Private parry London regiment

 

I'm sure many of our experts on the forum will be able to add further. 

Edited 1 March , 2021 by Gunner 87

[clk]

Hi Dawn,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

I think that John was numbered 2312, rather than 2321. and that he probably attested at 27 St Johns Hill, Clapham Junction on 28th August 1914. Surviving service papers for some near number men from his Battalion show:

 

2310 Dickson - attested 28.8.1914

2311 Roberts - attested 28.8.1914

2312

2314 Spencer - attested 28.8.1914

2321 Bedward - attested 29.8.1914

2327 Tisdall - attested 29.8.1914

 

Read in conjunction with the Battalion war diary his medal roll records suggest that he left St Albans and embarked at Southampton on 14th March 1915, and disembarked at Le Havre the following day.

 

If you would like one, British War Graves may be able to send you a digital image of his grave, on a free of charge basis - link.

 

Regards

Chris

 

[Pat Atkins]

The War Diary doesn't mention him by name, of course, and the battalion suffered a fairly steady drip of fatal and wounded casualties around the end of October/beginning November 1915, mostly it seems from shellfire.

 

On 1st November they were in the line in Section B2 somewhere NW of Lens, and over the next 3 days prior to relief suffered 9 dead and 11 wounded. On 6th/7th they left the reserve trenches, having avoided further casualties, for billets at PHILOSOPHE. On the afternoon of the 10th November, "C Coy lost 7 men killed and 7 men wounded by a shell which struck billet." Obviously, there's no way of knowing from this evidence when John Parry was wounded, but it is certainly possible it happened on the 10th - if we knew his company, it might aid speculation.

 

Cheers, Pat

[Gunner 87]

The newspaper article appears to mention Loos. I don't speak Welsh though the relevant parts regarding John Parry were highlighted hence the inclusion. Would any member be able to precis the relevant parts? I'm wondering if Private Parry was wounded in September, transferred to Etaples where he then succumbed to his injury. @Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

 

https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3460335/3460341/64/Private parry London regiment

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Thank you Gunner 87.

 

The relevant paragraph from  'Yr Herald Cymraeg', of 7th December 1915, page 6 reads:

 

"He went through Battle of Loos (25/9 - 8/10) unscathed, but seems to have fallen victim to a stray shot in early November while carrying dispatches. He was taken to the American Hospital in Etaples (November 4th). At First it was thought that his wound was only slight. Then it was seen that the bullet had sunk into his spine, and despite all medical attention, his life could not be saved, and he died on Tuesday night, 16th of November. He was buried in Etaples cemetery. One of the last to see him alive, and one of the ones who accompanied his remains to their final resting place, was Nurse Owen, daughter of Revd. J. Evans Owen, Llanberis."

 

(Earlier it mentions he joined up in the ranks, even though he was a captain in the school Cadet Corps, and could have earned a commission if he'd waited. This was in keeping with his egalitarian/republican beliefs. He crossed over to France with his regiment 'late last winter', and that he had been in France some 9 months before 'the final call came'.)