ian turner Posted 26 March , 2007 Share Posted 26 March , 2007 One thing bothers me: Father Gleeson's diary states: On his diary entry for the 8th he states:- 'We march out from xxx billet (Locon) about 900 strong, our Commanding Officer being Major Rickard and the Adjutant, Captain Filgate - two of the kindliest men I have come across. We leave about 7.00. The scenes of enthusiasm are outstanding. I ride my horse. Give Absolution to Batt. during rest on road opposite La Contin Church between the shrine of 'N.D. de la Bonne Mort' and another shrine '. Now, it maybe that I have forgotten the previous commentary, but are we looking in the right spot? The above states opposite a church and between shrines. Michel - can you refresh my memory Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel knockaert Posted 26 March , 2007 Share Posted 26 March , 2007 Hi all, I did not want to so early publish this poor copy of a photo of the chapel taked in 1940, but I believe that now that imposes itself ..... I will not say any more for the moment about this scene… friendly Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 26 March , 2007 Share Posted 26 March , 2007 You could tell us when the photo was taken, michel! Marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liverpool annie Posted 26 March , 2007 Share Posted 26 March , 2007 1940 Marina !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liverpool annie Posted 26 March , 2007 Share Posted 26 March , 2007 OK ! .... we can see the plaque ! ..... what else can we look for ? ..... in fact it looks like 2 plaques ! Annie Edit Page 12 Post # 221 was the original postcard ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 26 March , 2007 Share Posted 26 March , 2007 When was the chapel destroyed? Marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liverpool annie Posted 26 March , 2007 Share Posted 26 March , 2007 Is that the family of "our friend" Jean-Marie - on the photo ?? That's really a treasure to have ! Annie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel knockaert Posted 26 March , 2007 Share Posted 26 March , 2007 When was the chapel destroyed? Marina Hi Marina, have a look on the post 61 please friendly Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel knockaert Posted 26 March , 2007 Share Posted 26 March , 2007 Is that the family of "our friend" Jean-Marie - on the photo ?? That's really a treasure to have ! Annie No, Annie it is the family of Jean-Pierre, another friend of mines, who live today in the "rue du bois" area his parents live in the farm just near the orchard. The young girls who hold other children by the hands is Jean-Pierre's mother!!!! Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel knockaert Posted 27 March , 2007 Share Posted 27 March , 2007 One thing bothers me: Father Gleeson's diary states: On his diary entry for the 8th he states:- 'We march out from xxx billet (Locon) about 900 strong, our Commanding Officer being Major Rickard and the Adjutant, Captain Filgate - two of the kindliest men I have come across. We leave about 7.00. The scenes of enthusiasm are outstanding. I ride my horse. Give Absolution to Batt. during rest on road opposite La Contin Church between the shrine of 'N.D. de la Bonne Mort' and another shrine '. Now, it maybe that I have forgotten the previous commentary, but are we looking in the right spot? The above states opposite a church and between shrines. Michel - can you refresh my memory Ian Hi Ian, in fact "La Contin" church is "La Couture", the church of my village, and "la rue du Bois" is opposite this church and we look in the right spot, no mistake possible. Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullivan Posted 27 March , 2007 Share Posted 27 March , 2007 Hi all, I did not want to so early publish this poor copy of a photo of the chapel taked in 1940, but I believe that now that imposes itself ..... I will not say any more for the moment about this scene… friendly Michel Michel, Once again thank you for another piece of history. To understand the next part of my post Forum members will have to refer back on the following - Page 7 post 123 Page 12 post 221 Page 22 post 429 Page 24 post 477 And I sincerely hope Michel will be able to get me back on the correct track as I am not sure how I would summarize all the material Michel has unearthed for us. The history of the Royal Munster Fusiliers by Capt S. McCance, in dealing with the Rue Du Bois event describes briefly that the 2nd battalion halted on the side of the road and Absolution was given. The line of the paragraph that is interesting is "...just behind them stood a broken shrine enclosing a crucifix....". Back in the 1970's a group toured the battlefields, and then searched for the shrine. This was recorded in an article that appeared in the 'Irish Sword - Journal of Irish Military History. Opposite the article were two images, one of the Matania painting the 'Last Absolution', the other a picture of the plaque that was thought to have been attached to the shrine described in the Munster's history. Michel posted a photo of the plaque see page 22 post 429. Conjecture I know but it's my feeling after reviewing all the posts that the researchers may have been looking for the wrong shrine. It's possible the plaque in question, which is the lower one in the photo, refer page 24 post 477, was never attached to the broken shrine enclosing a crucifix. There are two names that need to be sorted that is the reference in Gleeson's diary to 'N.D. de la Bonne Mort' and Chapelle NOTRE DAME DE SEEZ (the chapel with the plaque attached). Finally, we know from other reports that Matania was not on the location of the 'Last Absolution', apparently it was drawn from a description given to him by some person. So where has the broken shrine with crucifix gone, did it ever exist, was the artists depiction based on a loose description, was the real shrine actually the Chapelle NOTRE DAME DE SEEZ, and is this why the plaques was attached to it. As the history of the Royal Munster Fusiliers was not written until after the Regiment was disbanded in 1922, I would like to know how Capt. McCance arrived at the description, 'broken shrine enclosing a crucifix. I just wish they had GPS in those days. Sullivan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 27 March , 2007 Share Posted 27 March , 2007 Hi Ian, in fact "La Contin" church is "La Couture", the church of my village, and "la rue du Bois" is opposite this church and we look in the right spot, no mistake possible. Michel Michel, OK - I am reassured! I guess it depends on the interpretation of the phrase 'rest on road opposite Le Contin Church' - either the whole road itself is opposite the church (what you are saying) or the actual place of rest itself was directly opposite the church (what I as thinking) But then, further to this, that the place of rest was between the two shrines. I guess 900 men are going to occupy a sizeable area, so indeed you are on the right location..... Sorry to bother you, I just had a doubt due to re-reading Father Gleeson's words. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 27 March , 2007 Share Posted 27 March , 2007 Ah, I had not seen Sullivan's last posting. But that is something of what I was thinking, but better explained! And when we are searching 'the exact spot' I guess there are several exact spots - where the shirne(s) were located, where all the men were gathered (some 900) and where Father Gleeson was placed. I am sure Michel is close, but I guess it does not hurt to take the phorensic examination a step further! Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullivan Posted 27 March , 2007 Share Posted 27 March , 2007 Further to my post 487, I have searched further and the strength of the battalion at the start on May was 26 officers and about 700 other ranks. (The battalion had to rebuild after Givenchy and Festubert, casualties then amounted 8 officers, 200 other ranks). I believe Michel has located the possible site of the 'Last Absolution' event, it's that description in the history of the Munster Fusiliers - "...just behind them stood a broken shrine enclosing a crucifix....", that has me bothered, if it could be determined that this shrine did exist, and where did it fit into the geography in comparison to the other shrine(s) (chapel(s)) mentioned, then to coin a phrase we have our GPS point. Matania has so much detail in the shrine in terms of architectural embellishment, the question is now though did it actually ever exist. Michel did inform me some time ago that a shrine with crucifix is also called a calvary in French. Some time ago I did receive some basic information from Martial Delebarre, in Fromelles, via a Forum member, "..I have attached two documents to locate the Tombe Williot Street at Locon. That's probably where was assembled the Bn before to move up by road to Richebourg nearby the front line via Zélobes, Vieille- Chapelle then La Couture before to receive the Last Absolution on the eve of the battle of Aubers Rigde. On the way back to home, I stopped at La Couture and ask to the secretary of the Town Hall some questions on La Chapelle de la Bonne Mort. Apparently, she knows nothing but there is a book written by a local historian on the Past or History of La Couture and I have an appointment there on Wednesday after 4.30 pm. The book will be available and I would be able to check for the different shrines and chapels if they are named. Meantime, I had a quick tour around the village, saw some evidences by myself and have understood that lots of these ones had been destroyed in 1918 during the episode of the Battle of the Lys. Some of them being rebuilt by the families during the 20's. That's at the moment what I'm able to do to bring assistance..." The link reported on post 474 page 24 by liverpool annie is associated with above. But in light of Michels' findings I did not take that investigation any further as Michel was closer to the geographic area of interest Michel, do you know of this written history of La Couture, and was it ever discovered the Calvary existed. Sullivan. PS. The above small image extract is from a print sent to me many years ago by a friend in Ireland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liverpool annie Posted 27 March , 2007 Share Posted 27 March , 2007 This is a quote regarding Matania - that I saw some time ago ..... but I'm sorry to say I can't remember the source .... it was regarding "our" painting and some others !! "I would like to say that whether or not the painting in its totality is authentic, in its overall mood it certainly is. I think one can be a bit too scientific in evaluating things that really aren't meant for such an analysis. Art is emotional. That is what all art is about - feeling. By consulating a survivor, Matania was able to give his illustration the pathos and sentiment that we are still appreciating today. That, to an artist, IS authenticity. The objective is to portray truth in feeling. Strict material accuracy can inhibit the work of an artist" Maybe we're chasing butterflies ............... !! Annie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel knockaert Posted 27 March , 2007 Share Posted 27 March , 2007 Annie, please, let go. Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 27 March , 2007 Share Posted 27 March , 2007 Maybe we're chasing butterflies ............... !! Annie We're certainly chasing ghosts! Perhaps though, if it is butterflies, then Michel has the net, and I suspect he will see where they land first - I understand this particular species are attracted to wayside shrines..... Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liverpool annie Posted 27 March , 2007 Share Posted 27 March , 2007 Well here's a turn up for the books ................ I got this email today - from St Lukes's Church Pinner We do not have this picture and, as far as I am aware, we never possessed it. Sorry for the delay. I suggest you write to the Senior RC Army Chaplain. Robert Plourde Annie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 28 March , 2007 Share Posted 28 March , 2007 The mystery deepens! Marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullivan Posted 28 March , 2007 Share Posted 28 March , 2007 This is a quote regarding Matania - that I saw some time ago ..... but I'm sorry to say I can't remember the source .... it was regarding "our" painting and some others !! Maybe we're chasing butterflies ............... !! Annie Annie The source: http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/discu...html?1074046395 Go to post 524 on the page. This was a discussion about the Titanic and not related to 'Last Absolution'. Sullivan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullivan Posted 28 March , 2007 Share Posted 28 March , 2007 At least now we know the painting existed for purpose of print making in December 1916. So it was not painted years after the event. Sullivan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liverpool annie Posted 28 March , 2007 Share Posted 28 March , 2007 This was a discussion about the Titanic and not related to 'Last Absolution'. I stand corrected Sullivan !! ..... but don't you think the comment still applies .... to "our" painting ?? .... I do ! ( but of course ... that's just my opinion !! ) Annie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liverpool annie Posted 28 March , 2007 Share Posted 28 March , 2007 Michel .... can I ask you ........... is the Tram of the Trenches still there and the hospital ? Annie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel knockaert Posted 29 March , 2007 Share Posted 29 March , 2007 Michel .... can I ask you ........... is the Tram of the Trenches still there and the hospital ? Annie Hello Annie, you can ask to me all that you want no the hospital do not sill exist, I think it was a "field hospital", and the tram of the trench is also disappeared friendly Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel knockaert Posted 29 March , 2007 Share Posted 29 March , 2007 We're certainly chasing ghosts! Perhaps though, if it is butterflies, then Michel has the net, and I suspect he will see where they land first - I understand this particular species are attracted to wayside shrines..... Ian Hi Ian, butterflies or illusions, for that my net is too small ! Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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