Today's harvest with the diggers in Boezinghe

[Guest tafski]

Well Said IAN

100% behind your statement

Tafski

[frans]

Vzw De Diggers krijgt opschorting van straf

De correctionele rechtbank van Ieper heeft vandaag de vzw De Diggers, beschuldigd van het illegaal opgraven van munitie, opschorting van straf verleend. In de toekomst moet de vereniging bij opgravingen wel over de nodige vergunningen beschikken. De Diggers vrezen echter dat hun werking in gevaar komt.

VZW "society" De Diggers get their sentence deferred.

De court at Ieper has today accused the VZW de diggers of illegal excavations of ammunitions and has deferred sentence. In the future the VZW has to apply for the necessary permits.

De diggers fear that the way they opperate becomes unworkable.

Geen vergunning

De rechtszaak tegen de amateurarcheologen, die vooral werkzaam zijn in de Westhoek rond de slagvelden van de eerste Wereldoorlog, begon na een klacht in 2006. Het Openbaar Ministerie verweet hen op een industrieterrein zonder geldige vergunning naar oorlogsmunitie te hebben gegraven.

No permit.

De courcase agains the amateur archeologist who are mainly working in the Westhoek around the battlefields of the first world war. This procedure was started after a complaint which was made in 2006. The state accused the group that they dug for war munitions without the correct permits.

De rechter achtte dat bewezen, maar sprak toch de opschorting van straf uit. Wel moeten De Diggers voortaan voor elke opgraving een aanvraag doen. Voorzitter Patrick Van Wanzeele hoopt nu een vergunning voor heel het Ieperse gebied te kunnen krijgen.

The judge judge spoke out that this was proven. But said that the sentence would be deferred. In the future the group will have to apply for the correct permits. The chairman of the group Patrick van Wanzeele hopes now to apply for a permit for the whole Ieper area.

Archeologisch materiaal

Bijkomend probleem is dat de rechter oorlogsmunitie als archeologisch materiaal beschouwd, waardoor alleen archeologen de spullen mogen opgraven. De Diggers bestaan echter enkel uit vrijwilligers.

Archeological material.

Extra problem is that the judge regards that war munitions is classed as archeological material. Therefore only archeologist can dig up munitions. De digger members are all volunteers.

De vzw werd ook verweten voorwerpen te hebben doorverkocht aan toeristen, maar daarvoor vond de rechter geen enkel bewijs. (belga/ka)

De VZW was also accused of having sold items to the tourists.

For this fact the judge found not one peace of evidence.

Just read between the paragraphs where I have put the translation.

Regards

Frans

[NigelS]

Thanks Frans

NigelS

[Guest tafski]

Frans

cheers mate

i can see that all archeologists will have to become armament experts wonder how long that will take to train them up

Thanks for keeping us informed see you in march at my retirement bash also hope fully in Barry next week end hope you can make it

Bruce

[welshdoc]

If your average archeologist for example from the time team, go searching with their JCB diggers, it wont be long before Franz and his intepid band are the only ones still in one peice to do the digging . Also one wonders how the developers will enjoy waiting a couple of years to clear their sites as the "new" regulations (if I understand them correctly) will only allow "qualified" archeologists to lift the munitions?

[susanhemmings]

Well done Franz et al.

[Michael Johnson]

Perhaps some of the companies that benefit from your activities might want to fund an appeal. It would be in their best interests to get the ruling changed.

[frans]

Perhaps some of the companies that benefit from your activities might want to fund an appeal. It would be in their best interests to get the ruling changed.

I don't think an appeal is neccessary. Because the complaints were made, we decided to go with the flow and let the judge come with a judgement. He was vey sympathetic to us but has to judge by what the law says.

The important fact is that the judge states that ammunition is the primary task of the archeologist. Which means that the DOVO the belgian army has to apply for a permit to do their work. Now it is up to the lawmakers to make sensable rules for a workable situation which is very important to the former front line areas.

If there is no change to the law the situation we have is that no area's will be cleaned or you have to wait month's for a permit and the building company's will just buldoze the sites with all its contents to obblivion. If an accident were to happen I will be keen to see who will be held responsable.

I spoke to a farmer today who is now very worried and is going to apply for a permit so in the spring he can plowe his fields without being arrested for removing historic munitions out of the ground without permission.

The law has been manipulated over the last years in such a way that nobody can put a spade in the ground. While the need for putting a spade in the ground in this area is of great importance. I cannot beleave that the authorities don't realise the urgent importance of good rules regarding clearing the ground of the frontline and I have been surprised since arriving in Ieper that the government here has not taken a leading role a very long time ago in sensable legislation. Of all the places I have lived this area could certainly do with a good how can I get my patch bomb free rules.

[Michael Johnson]

That sounds sensible, Frans. So perhaps instead of an appeal the companies/landowners/local government start pressuring the government for some workable rules.

[bierlijn]

Am I to understand that a property developer can plough straight into a site green field site with a JCB, but anyone wishing to preprepare the site with light excavation needs a permit and a professional archeologist? This can't be the case, can it? Surely the developer should apply for the same digging permit, and therefore have a mandatory archeologist attached to the project. Can someone clarify?

Hugh

[bierlijn]

Then again, if the farmer also needs a permit, would the archeologist follow him around, or ride with him on the tractor?

[hudsonswhistle]

"If there is no change to the law the situation we have is that no area's will be cleaned or you have to wait month's for a permit and the building company's will just buldoze the sites with all its contents to obblivion".

Fran's I was in Ypres last week,where I visited the pilkem rd bunker, the farmers field opposite seems to have become a vast land fill,I walked over there and I was amazed to see what was quiet obvious pieces of duck board from a trench,I don't no if it was from he's land as he has had some drainage work done? or whether it came from somewhere else.Also Boezinge industrial site,every time I visit that area there is some kind of building work going on,and there's always battlefield relics just thrown to the side,The point is I'm afraid that its already happening

[Sgt_Hazell_Great_Grandson]

Have any of De Diggers ever been killed in their work. Although i find their work most interesting i shudder when they invite/allow members of the public along to witness digs at close hand.

[frans]

Have any of De Diggers ever been killed in their work. Although i find their work most interesting i shudder when they invite/allow members of the public along to witness digs at close hand.

Up to the present no losses.

It depends on the situation if the public are allowed to watch. Normally no problem, but I do understand that there is always an element of risk.

[frans]

"If there is no change to the law the situation we have is that no area's will be cleaned or you have to wait month's for a permit and the building company's will just buldoze the sites with all its contents to obblivion".

Fran's I was in Ypres last week,where I visited the pilkem rd bunker, the farmers field opposite seems to have become a vast land fill,I walked over there and I was amazed to see what was quiet obvious pieces of duck board from a trench,I don't no if it was from he's land as he has had some drainage work done? or whether it came from somewhere else.Also Boezinge industrial site,every time I visit that area there is some kind of building work going on,and there's always battlefield relics just thrown to the side,The point is I'm afraid that its already happening

I agree with your observations. The new large building now build over the international trench we were told that we had a very limited time to screen the area, I am talking weeks. We were lucky that we found a good number of munitions that put the shits up the building contractors and gave us bit more time. End result was that we recovered six british soldiers from this land, the last one from under the tracks of a parked buldozer.

The question we have to ask ourselves is with the situation we have now, when no searches are done that soldiers are bulldozed without pardon. Do we find this acceptable or would it be appropriate to make the effort to try and locate and give this soul a decent last resting place. This means that every building site should be checked.

It pisses me of that people in authority stand at the Menin gate with their reefs looking somber while a couple of miles away maybe one of the names engraved in the gate he is standing under is being ground to a pulp.

I am certainly not giving up and we are looking for ways to have this bad law changed.

We all owe these soldiers our gratitude, then at least what we can do is make some effort in return.

[bierlijn]

Completely agree with that. So if you are going to look at the ground when you dig, you need a permit and an archeologist, but if you use a bulldozer or do it blindfolded you don't need either?

Is this to do with who owns the land, ie if it's been bought by a developer, it's theirs to do what they like with it?

[frans]

Completely agree with that. So if you are going to look at the ground when you dig, you need a permit and an archeologist, but if you use a bulldozer or do it blindfolded you don't need either?

Is this to do with who owns the land, ie if it's been bought by a developer, it's theirs to do what they like with it?

For every different bit of land you have to go through the whole procedure.

This takes a long time and also not being certain that it will be approved in the end.

The building firm is certainly not going to apply for one, they will just get on with it.

Egon who has been a member of de diggers for many years is a qualified forensic archeologist, so that should not be the problem. In the application process for planning permission the archeologist has the right to give his oppinion if he wants to investigate the area. Up to now there has been no real interrest to take any action.

As you will have gatherred are the archeologist in our area are very anti Diggers and the complaint at the court was made by them. A couple of international newspapers have picked on the recent devellopments overhere so we could be in for some good funn.

What we need here is a good setup regarding the cleaning of building land. 95 procent of the finds on the frontline area is munitions. By the time the whole peace of land has been checked it is safer and cleaner. The procedure of an archeologist is differrent and unworkable on the battlefields, on top of this the costs would be enough to keep another bank afloat. The archeologists in Belgium have banned the use of metal detectors for searching for anything, which of coarse is dead handy when looking for munitions.

[chaz]

hard to find words Frans, isnt there a way of appealing through the IRC or european commission?

[Richard Osgood]

Hi Frans,

Sorry - can't let this one go. It is entirely possible to work successfully as an archaeologist on sites of the Western Front and to still meet stringent EOD requirements. In so doing one can accomplish a huge amount of archaeological work to high standards. We have managed this at Plugstreet (just ask Egon!) where we have EOD coverage on site at all times, including DOVO. I agree that methodologies for archaeological work and subsequent conservation of artefacts are slightly different on First War sites, but things are not impossible. Cost need not be an issue either - all our team are volunteers. We must do right by those that lived, fought and in many cases died here.

cheers

Richard

The procedure of an archeologist is differrent and unworkable on the battlefields, on top of this the costs would be enough to keep another bank afloat. The archeologists in Belgium have banned the use of metal detectors for searching for anything, which of coarse is dead handy when looking for munitions.

[frans]

Hi Frans,

Sorry - can't let this one go. It is entirely possible to work successfully as an archaeologist on sites of the Western Front and to still meet stringent EOD requirements. In so doing one can accomplish a huge amount of archaeological work to high standards. We have managed this at Plugstreet (just ask Egon!) where we have EOD coverage on site at all times, including DOVO. I agree that methodologies for archaeological work and subsequent conservation of artefacts are slightly different on First War sites, but things are not impossible. Cost need not be an issue either - all our team are volunteers. We must do right by those that lived, fought and in many cases died here.

cheers

Richard

Hi Richard,

First of all I don't have any problem with the archeologists. Secondlly I know there have been digs which have been very succesfull. But this does not solve our specific problem. One thing we never get is time. Secondly we have to clear large areas in a very short time therefore we don't really get the time given to work with the toothbrush.

But with due respect, if the archeologist think that everything that lies here is of such great importance you would think they would pull their fingers out, but they chose to do nothing.

I think we as a group are very good at what we do, but I don't class it as archeology. We clear large areas which are going to be bulldozed in the very short term. With the international trench it got that bad that the building firm waited for Patrick, while he was detecting the bulldozer followed behind him.

If no action was taken at the international trench, the result would have been that the soldiers remains would have been transported to near Brugge where the top layer finally ended up. We don't specificly look for soldiers but if there are remains present we make the effort to remove him.

In the situation of the above an archeologist could in a couple of hundred years have had a sensational news and rewritten the history books that the english front lines were not in Ieper but due to the finding of six english soldiers it looks like the trenches were in Brugge.

But to me it looks very simple, if we had not taken action nothing would have happend and it looks like this is the scenario the archeolgists have created for themselves at the present, nothing happens.

[welshdoc]

In the Uk (if we beleive time team) the use of metal dectorists at digs seems to be allowed. Seems eminently sensible to me as long as they are part of a authorised exersise.

Also Frans I think you have spent too long in the company of the Brits ( no names) as your use of the p***** word was so aptly used in the comment

"It p***** me of that people in authority stand at the Menin gate with their reefs looking somber while a couple of miles away maybe one of the names engraved in the gate he is standing under is being ground to a pulp."

seems to sum it all up so very well

Gareth

[Martin Brown]

Frans

The problem is not, as you know, with the archaeologists, who would be happy to undertake further work. Rather it is with the funding system for archaeological works, including Great War archaeology.

Interestingly archaeological heritage has been cited as a reason for stopping some development on the former Salient but so far there are not sufficient mechanisms for pre-development work.

The way forward is for De Diggers to support the archaeologists in seeking adequate resouorces.

Martin

[frans]

Frans

The problem is not, as you know, with the archaeologists, who would be happy to undertake further work. Rather it is with the funding system for archaeological works, including Great War archaeology.

Interestingly archaeological heritage has been cited as a reason for stopping some development on the former Salient but so far there are not sufficient mechanisms for pre-development work.

The way forward is for De Diggers to support the archaeologists in seeking adequate resouorces.

Martin

Martin I am afraid I don't agree with you on this point. The systematic cleaning of the munitions of building sites and other sites is being blocked by the archeologists.

The main problem we have is to put it bluntly is contaminated land, and by cleaning land bit by bit the land becomes safer which is a good thing for the population who lives here now. When driving the salient it all looks idyllic but beneath lurks a problem. This problem will only increase as time goes on. At the moment there is a large study going on regarding ground contamination here in Belgium.

I agree that projects by the archeologist could be undertaken to research areas but sadly the funds are not there and to be honest I can't see any funds being made available. Regarding de diggers working with the archeologist, from our side there has never been any problem to work with anybody.

The way the group has worked for many years has been with the help of the landowners, building firms and town halls who, where needed gave the neccessary funding or made equipment available. Main problem always being the limited time given to complete the search. If every buildings site had to be investigated and the work stopped on these sites we would end up with an unworkable situation.

I also would like to make very clear that the Town Hall of Ieper and Langemark have been a great supporters of the group.

Everybody is looking for a workable solution.

If nothing changes and everything is classed as historical the result will be that nothing happens, to me this situation is just not acceptable.

[hudsonswhistle]

I agree with your observations. The new large building now build over the international trench we were told that we had a very limited time to screen the area, I am talking weeks. We were lucky that we found a good number of munitions that put the shits up the building contractors and gave us bit more time. End result was that we recovered six british soldiers from this land, the last one from under the tracks of a parked buldozer.

The question we have to ask ourselves is with the situation we have now, when no searches are done that soldiers are bulldozed without pardon. Do we find this acceptable or would it be appropriate to make the effort to try and locate and give this soul a decent last resting place. This means that every building site should be checked.

It pisses me of that people in authority stand at the Menin gate with their reefs looking somber while a couple of miles away maybe one of the names engraved in the gate he is standing under is being ground to a pulp.

I am certainly not giving up and we are looking for ways to have this bad law changed.

We all owe these soldiers our gratitude, then at least what we can do is make some effort in return.

Well said that man

[bierlijn]

"Waarom worden rond Ieper nieuwe industrieterreinen gepland, terwijl zo ook bezig zijn om de slagvelden ter plekke vóór de herdenkingen in 2014 tot Werelderfgoed te verklaren?"

-NRC Handelsblad(NL) 7 Juni 2008.

NRC asks this question about the Salient becoming a World Heritage site in 2014, but does not find an answer.

If the area was to be declared a World Heritage site, what would the consequences be for land development, and for battlefield excavation?

Surely at this point a coherent set of rules must be put into place and applied equally.