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Remembered Today:

Today's harvest with the diggers in Boezinghe


tammilnad

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Very interesting information mr Dugout. Adede we know very well I have seen them in action on the maasvlakte in Rotterdam.

What I don't understand that you are now promoting these companies while you are the one who sent a series of complaints to the minister, the police and the courts to make sure the law was upheld. As we all know you, the Poirot of the Westhoek. Now you have succeeded in bringing everything under the responsability of the archeologists, you are now starting to promote demining companies, do you have shares in these companies.

As you are such a fighter for the enforcement of the law, how many complaints have you made personnally about the fact that polluted land is sold in this area.

When now an accident happens or soldiers get cleared, and we find out that the archeologist did not find it important enough to give a licence to have the area screened we know which door to knock on.

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Frans

cheers mate

i can see that all archeologists will have to become armament experts wonder how long that will take to train them up

Thanks for keeping us informed see you in march at my retirement bash also hope fully in Barry next week end hope you can make it

Bruce

Tafski,

I'm not sure if De Diggers have archaeologists or what? You seem to know them better, but I do understand that they have managed successfully to locate a considerable number of the fallen. Which is laudable in itself. I don't suppose you know how they identify them and what sort of success rate they have?

Vegetius

(General 5th Century)

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Vegetius

I think it best you contact frans of de diggers and get the information from the horses mouth so to speak and then there will be no misunderstandings

Tafski

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I don't suppose you know how they identify them and what sort of success rate they have?

May I ask who do you think 'they' are/is? Diggers, Min. of Defence or CWGC?

Regards,

Marco

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these two sound pretty commercial (=expensive) to me

Developers will expect to pay commercial prices to professional contractors to remove demolition and construction waste from their sites, so why should it be any different for EOD services? Would an amateur group be permitted to remove asbestos from old factory sites in Belgium?

I think many members will be disappointed to learn of the over-riding importance that De Diggers apparently attach to the ordnance clearance side of their activities.

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Developers will expect to pay commercial prices to professional contractors to remove demolition and construction waste from their sites, so why should it be any different for EOD services? Would an amateur group be permitted to remove asbestos from old factory sites in Belgium?

I think many members will be disappointed to learn of the over-riding importance that De Diggers apparently attach to the ordnance clearance side of their activities.

Don't decry amateurs, I have found some amateurs to be every bit as capable as "Professionals" . The Dovo are professionals and have lost many men in handling the unexploded ordenance left over from the war, the diggers..NONE, see what I mean?

I think you only have to look at the input of our "Amateur" GWF pals to the BBC programme " My Family at War" as a typical example.

I'm sad to see some negativity in certain posts towards other members of the forum just recently.

There's them that talks, and there's them that does..the Diggers belong to the latter, may they continue to do what they have done well for years

regrads

Tom

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May I ask who do you think 'they' are/is? Diggers, Min. of Defence or CWGC?

Regards,

Marco

Marco,

I'm really not sure of the process used! I guess the 'they' are all of those you mentioned. I assume that the soldiers recovered are handed over with all of their kit found to one of the Government organisations and that all concerned play their part in identifying the individual. I was / am interested in what sort of success rate is possible using modern high tech methods?

Knowing the amount of stuff soldiers hoard and carry I would have thought that with the technology you hear is available today a reasonable amount could be ID'd from their kit etc and subsequently given the named burial that they rightly deserve. In addition the percentage of soldiers named would be an indicator that demonstrates the good job being done.

Vegetius

(General 5th Century A.D.)

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"I think many members will be disappointed to learn of the over-riding importance that De Diggers apparently attach to the ordnance clearance side of their activities"

What is the most common item likely to be found by De-Diggers "Blinds" i.e. ammunition that has failed to function. I sure the prime purpose is the clearance of an area to be developed, and if in the process remains are found the first priority is to inform the police, I might be corrected, but that the recovery of remains is done under the watchful eye of the police, if it is established that the remains are WW1. All remains are bagged and tagged with any artifacts found in the vacinity and handed over to the police. The De-Diggers do not and cannot identify the the name of the individual unless dogtags are found only in some cases can the nationality and regiments (in the case of shoulder titles or cap Badges) can they be identified. The identity is is kept confidential by them.

John

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"I sure the prime purpose is the clearance of an area to be developed, and if in the process remains are found the first priority is to inform the police, I might be corrected, but that the recovery of remains is done under the watchful eye of the police, if it is established that the remains are WW1. All remains are bagged and tagged with any artifacts found in the vacinity and handed over to the police. The De-Diggers do not and cannot identify the the name of the individual unless dogtags are found only in some cases can the nationality and regiments (in the case of shoulder titles or cap Badges) can they be identified. The identity is is kept confidential by them.

John

This is merely an observation John but I know from personal experience that there is nothing to stop any group that has found a body from undertaking research to assist the authorities in identifying that individual. Also the method of excavation and the records made can be extremely helpful to CWGC, if carried out to a professional standard. By your final sentence I assume that the words "apart from to the authorities" is implicit.

Personally, having worked on human remains in a Great War archaeological context, I feel a strong personal responsibility to assist the identification process in whatever way possible. I also see nothing wrong in telling people of our successes, as I feel that we honour the man by telling his story. However this is not the place to debate this, as we have a thread devoted to the wider issues surrounding bodies running on "Battlefields in Danger".

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Just to clarify a point or two, the word assist is very important, as id is not carried out by any groups it is the cwgc and mod who try, i also understand that no material relating to possible id of a body should be separated from it during excavation, the complete "find" is handed over to the local police to start the process.

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Martin

If you are going to quote me, please use the complete post., also I did not use "apart from the authorities". And as for trying to identify the bodies, the Diggers have not your resources at their disposal as you have in UK. As I said before their prime function is clearance.

John

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Developers will expect to pay commercial prices to professional contractors to remove demolition and construction waste from their sites, so why should it be any different for EOD services? Would an amateur group be permitted to remove asbestos from old factory sites in Belgium?

I think many members will be disappointed to learn of the over-riding importance that De Diggers apparently attach to the ordnance clearance side of their activities.

Asbestos is actually detected and cleared for free by a specialised goverment unit here in Flanders.

Further from the rest, permits for archaeological research are issued by the Flemish goverment's (RO Vlaanderen) department for monuments and landscapes. As far as the archaeological side of the story is concerned, it seems to become harder and harder for amateur archaeological groups to obtain licenses here in Flanders. One of the most prominent groups, the AVRA (Association for Roman Archaeology in Antwerp) f.i. can no longer obtain their own permits and can now only assist on goverment digs. On commercial digs (the vast majority), there are no volunteers allowed due to market rules concerning competition between archaeological companies.

A positive point here is that the area where the diggers operate is covered by a local govermental archaeological service. If a stretch of land needs to be excavated, the goverment archaeologist for the Ypres area will sit down with the contractor and look at costs, time etc. He will than manage and monitor the excavation, which normally leaves him room enough to incorporate volunteers/amateurs. In other areas of Flanders such a local governemental service does not exist, which leaves it to the contractor himself to organise the archaeological part. The contractor than has no other opportunity than to contact a commercial archaeological company, which leaves no room for volunteers. A clear archaeological law is to be passed next year. Untill than, the above is more or less how it functions here for the moment. Untill than, it is an unclear situation for all of us working in archaeology in Flanders. I hope 2009 bring some clarity for the diggers as well.

As far as I know, there is also a new regulations for metal detectoring to be released in Flanders, which would give metal detectorists the chance to obtain a permit for the whole of Flanders. However this permit is limited to the disturbed top soil layer (more or less the first 20-40 cm).

As far as the ammunition disposal side of the story is concerned, I think this is and will remain a 'grey zone'.

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Martin

If you are going to quote me, please use the complete post., also I did not use "apart from the authorities". And as for trying to identify the bodies, the Diggers have not your resources at their disposal as you have in UK. As I said before their prime function is clearance.

John

John,

Do I understand this right and the Diggers are actually an 'EOD' (I believe that is the term) clearance organisation? The thing is as I understand it they have found in excess of 200 fallen in the process of their work. my initial question was, when given to the authorities with all the associated equipment how many have been identified (to the nearest 10 or so would be good). As you state the Diggers do not have at their disposal huge resources, but the government organisations who recieve the remains do. Also as Martin states, "...having worked on human remains in a Great War archaeological context, I feel a strong personal responsibility to assist the identification process in whatever way possible." Surely anyone with repect would feel likewise and assist in whatever way possible. I have read much recently about people like the Australians and New Zealander's who will and do put a huge amount into the research the of personnal kit as well as the remains and that must pay dividends in the long run?

Can no one then answer the simple question for me please? How many (roughly) of the recovered soldiers are successfully identified? I can't be the first person ever to ask this question and I'm sure amongst this august group of learned people someone must have a reasonable idea. Several people have said that they have accompanied the Diggers on their work and surely, if they're anything like me, would wish to know the results of anyone found whilst they were there?

My thanks to all for listening to this minor question.

Vegetius

(General 5th Century AD)

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Can no one then answer the simple question for me please? How many (roughly) of the recovered soldiers are successfully identified?

One.

I'll send you a PM.

Aurel

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One.

I'll send you a PM.

Aurel

Well I didn't expect such an exact answer, thanks. I've replied to your PM separately but is it just me or is one identification out of in excess of 200 just a little bit low? Having read these threads I expected something in excess of 50% (not unlike a find of 5 soldiers at Polygon wood that I was PM'd on where 3 were identified!). I have not been able to read up on that yet but understand that it was professional archaeologists on that occasion. If so does that show a reason why only the trained and qualified should carryout such activitys (or am I overly simplifying things with my lack of understanding)?

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I out of over 200 is "a little bit low indeed".

In my PM I referred to the reasons explaining this low rate.

I do not think that professional archaeologists were involved in the actual finding of the 5 Polygon Wood men. The professionals (non archaeologists) came afterwards and had means that amateurs do not have at their disposal. (Like DNA.)

I don't think that professional archaeologists would have had a higher ID rate with regard to the remains found by the Diggers. But again : identification is not the task of the Diggers. We were not even allowed to keep the items for a while. They were to be handed to the authorities.

Aurel

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Having been involved in the identification of several Great War soldiers and involved in several Great War digs I can say from my experience that it is amazing anyone can be identified at all considering the condition of the remains, the level of destruction of the military and personal items. It is a miracle in some instances that anything worthwhile is even discovered that could provide a clue to their identity.

Some ID discs were fabric based, aluminum, etc. Most of these dissolved long ago and those that survived, mostly German in my personal experience, were badly damaged in most cases but these at least provide the best chance of identifying the man.

If only a few of the men were identified then I consider it a victory of dedication over time and rust.

Ralph

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There are many variables that must be considered concerning the id of soldiers, one of the most important is the authorities CWGC and MOD, rarely do they get the budget for DNA, which is a very costly business, it can be possible to id a regiment, but for an individual soldier to be recognised overwhelming positive proof is required, not just a button or cap badge.

The Diggers do not go looking for bodies, but when they find one in my experience they are treated with total respect, and the legal procedures followed, from the point the remains are lifted from the ground and handed over to the police, they have no further say in what happens in the id process.

Finally, unless there is a pointer to who the soldier maybe, dna is not possible, as you need to match it up with a relative, the conditions of the ground, what activities have gone on over it, the type of injuries sustained, all help or hinder the id process.

The diggers are very experienced in what they do, and they do it as well as any other group, lets be thankfull they exist.

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After spending a good part of this morning with the De Diggers in Barry I have only admiration for them. The were more than happy to explain the whys and wonts of the whole thing and I now understand the whole isssue in a more informed light. (They were also dead friendly).

Also as a side issue nice to meet Willie and Dave Croonheart and also I guess Tafski who cost me a load of cash :P .

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After spending a good part of this morning with the De Diggers in Barry I have only admiration for them. The were more than happy to explain the whys and wonts of the whole thing and I now understand the whole isssue in a more informed light. (They were also dead friendly).

Also as a side issue nice to meet Willie and Dave Croonheart and also I guess Tafski who cost me a load of cash :P .

Money well spent even if you did have to lever your wallet open with that superb bayonet

once again Doc pleasure to spend time in your company also glad the de diggers were there

Tafski

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