Wounded solders at Desford

[TEW]

From stiletto_33853's post.

Quote

B/2308, Lake, Frederick Hubert, 8th RB, WIA Gsw Calf 31/7/15, invalided to UK 15/8/15, to 5th RB 21/11/15

 

This would date the photo to Sept-Nov 1915, allowing for time pre-convalescent?

His Casualty List has 'Report Received Date 29th August 1915'

 

40 minutes ago, dink999 said:

He is Harold Wollatt/Woollatt. Enlisted Sept. 1911, transferred (Own Request) Sept 1915 to Argyll & Southern Highlanders 3085/7575 then in Oct. 1918 he was transferred to the RAMC no. M/398458.

His MIC shows entitlement only to the pair so no service overseas proir to his A&SH service, he is actually RASC M/398458. So he's at Desford with a UK origin illness/injury.

TEW

 

[TEW]

I'll tentatively put up the following ID. It does rely on the regiment given to be incorrect, other possibilities may exist.

Could be Edward John Pennington 16135, 2nd South Lancashires. He was from St Helens (near Liverpool). Date of Entry 26/5/15. Appendicitis in the field 24/8/1915 and evacuated to England 5/9/15. Returned to service and was KIA Oct 1916.

He has a service file, nothing that gives any UK hospitals though.

TEW

[charlie962]

Janet, I’ve updated my version of list of names for photo1 (ses page 2 of this thread).

There are a few that neither you nor I could find, viz:

 

Clarke, 3456, London???.

 

Hubbard, 4436, Leicesters??

 

Carson, 21420, HLI???

 

Balls, 2728, London???

 

Noon 161???.

 

Forbes, 1748, Yorks???

 

Any thoughts anyone?

 

Charlie 

[dink999]

13 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Clarke, 3456, London???.

Charlie,

He could well be 3456 Arthur Clark, 20th Londons, There is a medical record for him and service papers on FMP. Details include being sent home from France 5 Dec. 1915 & then discharged unfit 31 March 1916.

[charlie962]

12 minutes ago, dink999 said:

Charlie,

He could well be 3456 Arthur Clark, 20th Londons, There is a medical record for him and service papers on FMP. Details include being sent home from France 5 Dec. 1915 & then discharged unfit 31 March 1916.

Looks good. Why couldnt I see it on FMP? S-savers.....

[dink999]

37 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Hubbard, 4436, Leicesters??

I tentatively offer this man, I think the dates fit don’t they?

SWB no. 45400, sickness, no overseas service

Image courtesy of Ancestry

 

 

[dink999]

47 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Carson, 21420, HLI???

A possible is 21421 Sgt. George Carson, HLI. Embarked 5 Oct 1915, discharged 7 March 1916. If I have him correctly in the photo he appears to be on crutches.

[dink999]

57 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Balls, 2728, London???

Might be 2728 Pte. Harry C BALL, 20th Londons later no. 630909

[dink999]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

Forbes, 1748, Yorks???

Finally

He is 1746 John Forbes Yorkshire Regt. later 401428 RFC/RAF. His RAF record shows that he was in hospital in Leicester from the 10th Nov. 1915

Image courtesy of Fold3

 

[charlie962]

6 hours ago, dink999 said:

Finally

He is 1746 John Forbes Yorkshire Regt. later 401428 RFC/RAF. His RAF record shows that he was in hospital in Leicester from the 10th Nov. 1915

Image courtesy of Fold3

 

I think all your proposals are good. Slight hesitation on Hubbard but he’s probably the man. Well done for spotting those little nuances.

I’ll update my listing for Photo1 in the next few days.

Charlie

Edited 23 February by charlie962

[charlie962]

7 hours ago, dink999 said:

A possible is 21421 Sgt. George Carson, HLI. Embarked 5 Oct 1915, discharged 7 March 1916. If I have him correctly in the photo he appears to be on crutches.

Photo1

He is the sergeant with hands on the shoulders of the man in front of him’ second from right.

Remember the names running downwards on the back are from Right to Left in the photo. 

Edited 23 February by charlie962

[dink999]

9 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

He is the sergent with hands on the shoulders of the man in front of him’ second from right.

Remember the names running downwards on the back are from Right to Left in the photo. 

Thanks for the reminder, good to put all the details to the correct men in the photo

Dave

[charlie962]

6 minutes ago, dink999 said:

good to put all the details to the correct men in the photo

If someone wants to overwrite a copy of photo1 with a number for each man I will post that copy plus number each man accordingly in my list.

I think same approach should  be adopted for the two other named photos. 

 

Edited 23 February by charlie962

[PRC]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

If someone wants to overwrite a copy of photo1 with a number for each man I will post that copy plus number each man accordingly in my list.

Apologies Charlie - I haven't read the thread. Is this the sort of thing your looking for? Or does it need to be numbered in a different order and \ or include staff?

(Picture cropped and tone changed to bring out the numbers).

Picture 1

Cheers,
Peter

[Jane Hayward]

Yes to staff being included please.

[PRC]

2 hours ago, Jane Hayward said:

Yes to staff being included please.

Will do - just waiting to hear back from Charlie that there isn't a better lay-out of the numbering that will make his part of the task easier

The Red Cross VAD database appears to have only three names in connection with Desford and two of those didn't start there until October 1918.

A Miss Florence Maud Morley was engaged there as a trainee on the 12th July 1915 and by the time she left on the 1st June 1919 she was a nurse. She was associated with the T.N. Department - whatever that was! https://vad.redcross.org.uk/record?rowKey=154946

There are many newspaper reports on Desford Hall during the Great War period on the British Newspaper Archive, and some mention Matron's and nurses by name. Unfortunately I don't subscribe and the small amount of each article transcribed seems to have suffered even more than the usual amount of mangling thanks to the software used.

For example:-

Image courtesy the British Newspaper Archive.

Cheers,
Peter

[Jane Hayward]

On 20/02/2024 at 21:09, Bob Davies said:

Thanks for posting these extra pictures Jane and confirming that it was a 'convalescent home' before the war.

I just had a bit of a dig on Ancestry, the 1911 census tells us that,

Lucie Maud Havers, born 1863 in Norwich, was the Trained Matron/head of the place. Age about 48 in 1911, so aged 52 in 1915.

I wonder if she is one some in the pictures?

There are 43 names on the 1911 cencus, all the patients are male and 7 members of staff all female including  Lucie Maud Havers.

On a 1894 map Desford Hall is called 'Forest House'.

Regards, Bob.

 

Bob, You were quite right about Lucie/Lucy Maud Havers. Following Peter's link here she is in January 1916 with my grandmother at a Desford concert, and I found a later article where she retired from ill health in 1918 having been at Desford since before the war. So she is the matron in the photographs.

Edited 24 February by Jane Hayward

[Bob Davies]

35 minutes ago, Jane Hayward said:

Bob, You were quite right about Lucie/Lucy Maud Havers. Following Peter's link here she is in January 1916 with my grandmother at a Desford concert, and I found a later article where she retired from ill health in 1918 having been at Desford since before the war. So she is the matron in the photographs.

Thanks Jane,

there are some brilliant finds being shared in this post, thanks to all.

As @FROGSMILE mentioned earlier, something I totally agree with;

On 23/02/2024 at 12:05, FROGSMILE said:

What a fantastic team effort by everyone.  Kudos to you all.  How wonderful it will be if these photos can be preserved, along with the extra meaning given by the annotation with the fates of the sitters, and then on public display somewhere.  It really is the forum at its best I think. 👍

Now that @PRC Peter is on board, all will be numbered correctly, including the Dog.

I am battling away trying to find links to the Leicester Regt soldiers but it is slow work with little reward at the moment.

I will update 'Bowyer Leicestershire Yeomanry' when I confirm something later on.

Regards, Bob.

[Bob Davies]

Just to recap on what I have on 2538 Pte Frederick Bowyer Leicester Yeomanry (page 4 on this thread)

From your picture 4. Jane.

Bowyer 2336 - Leic Yeo

The closest I can find is,

2538 Pte Frederick Bowyer Leicester Yeomanry/

255487 Corps of Hussars.

From his MIC entered France 27-5-1915.  Discharged 1-8-1917.

SWB (Silver War Badge) CY 202 (That is the book number under Corps of Hussars) Badge number is 226,012. Sickness is recorded as his injury.

His 1915 Star and British War Medal and Victory medal rolls all show the same names, numbers and Regiments.

Looking on these rolls from Ancestry I cannot find another Bowyer in any Yeomanry Regiment/Corps of Hussars, with the Number 2336.

Therefore I am sure that I have your man.

I am quite confident that this is the correct man.

The cap badge fits, I am sure that @FROGSMILE or @CorporalPunishment will confirm this.

This is a link to a very informative web site about the Leicestershire Yeomanry, Prince Alberts own. from its early days to modern times, loads of uniform pictures,

cap badges and all.

https://www.paoyeomanry.org.uk/

They have him listed as having been awarded a silver war badge.

I have been all over re checking my findings.

Here is his MIC, link to Nat Archives https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=Bowyer+leicestershire+yeomanry

Regards, Bob.

PS; The Carillion at Loughborough may have answers, possibly worth a visit and I am sure they would be very interested in seeing your pictures Jane.

https://www.carillontower.org.uk/

Edited 24 February by Bob Davies
To add a PS.

[Jane Hayward]

Is this one of our Canadians from Picture 2? H Westacott marries Bertha Cooper of Ashby-de-la-Zouch on 22 February 1916. "The bridegroom was in London, Ontario at the outbreak of war, and joining the RFA was among the first contingent to land in England. He was wounded during the battle of Ypres, and for a time during his convalescence stayed at the Desford Convalescent Home... a large congregation being present, including a number of wounded soldiers from the Home. These formed a guard of honour as the happy couple left the church; four of them improvised an arch with their crutches."

[Jane Hayward]

11 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Just to recap on what I have on 2538 Pte Frederick Bowyer Leicester Yeomanry (page 4 on this thread)

From your picture 4. Jane.

Bowyer 2336 - Leic Yeo

The closest I can find is,

2538 Pte Frederick Bowyer Leicester Yeomanry/

255487 Corps of Hussars.

From his MIC entered France 27-5-1915.  Discharged 1-8-1917.

SWB (Silver War Badge) CY 202 (That is the book number under Corps of Hussars) Badge number is 226,012. Sickness is recorded as his injury.

His 1915 Star and British War Medal and Victory medal rolls all show the same names, numbers and Regiments.

Looking on these rolls from Ancestry I cannot find another Bowyer in any Yeomanry Regiment/Corps of Hussars, with the Number 2336.

Therefore I am sure that I have your man.

I am quite confident that this is the correct man.

The cap badge fits, I am sure that @FROGSMILE or @CorporalPunishment will confirm this.

This is a link to a very informative web site about the Leicestershire Yeomanry, Prince Alberts own. from its early days to modern times, loads of uniform pictures,

cap badges and all.

https://www.paoyeomanry.org.uk/

They have him listed as having been awarded a silver war badge.

I have been all over re checking my findings.

Here is his MIC, link to Nat Archives https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=Bowyer+leicestershire+yeomanry

Regards, Bob.

You have him, I'm sure, Bob. I think the numbers work too.

[CorporalPunishment]

13 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Just to recap on what I have on 2538 Pte Frederick Bowyer Leicester Yeomanry (page 4 on this thread)

From your picture 4. Jane.

Bowyer 2336 - Leic Yeo

The closest I can find is,

2538 Pte Frederick Bowyer Leicester Yeomanry/

255487 Corps of Hussars.

From his MIC entered France 27-5-1915.  Discharged 1-8-1917.

SWB (Silver War Badge) CY 202 (That is the book number under Corps of Hussars) Badge number is 226,012. Sickness is recorded as his injury.

His 1915 Star and British War Medal and Victory medal rolls all show the same names, numbers and Regiments.

Looking on these rolls from Ancestry I cannot find another Bowyer in any Yeomanry Regiment/Corps of Hussars, with the Number 2336.

Therefore I am sure that I have your man.

I am quite confident that this is the correct man.

The cap badge fits, I am sure that @FROGSMILE or @CorporalPunishment will confirm this.

This is a link to a very informative web site about the Leicestershire Yeomanry, Prince Alberts own. from its early days to modern times, loads of uniform pictures,

cap badges and all.

https://www.paoyeomanry.org.uk/

They have him listed as having been awarded a silver war badge.

I have been all over re checking my findings.

Here is his MIC, link to Nat Archives https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=Bowyer+leicestershire+yeomanry

Regards, Bob.

PS; The Carillion at Loughborough may have answers, possibly worth a visit and I am sure they would be very interested in seeing your pictures Jane.

https://www.carillontower.org.uk/

I would go with Leicestershire Yeomanry being a good fit for the cap badge.        Pete.

[PRC]

4 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

Now that @PRC Peter is on board, all will be numbered correctly, including the Dog.

Now you're just being silly Bob. Everyone knows you don't number the dogs - that's what D is for

Cheers,
Peter

[Bob Davies]

2 minutes ago, PRC said:

Now you're just being silly Bob. Everyone knows you don't number the dogs - that's what D is for

Cheers,
Peter

Thank you Peter, every day is an education on here, yep same Dog, a good match.

Smiling like a loony here,

Cheers to you!

Bob.

38 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

I would go with Leicestershire Yeomanry being a good fit for the cap badge.        Pete.

Thank you Pete, much appreciated for your help.

Bob.

 

[charlie962]

16 hours ago, PRC said:

just waiting to hear back from Charlie that there isn't a better lay-out

Given  the way the names are written on the back could you possibly number right to left, starting with the front row ?

As Jane (sorry for calling you Janet!) said, include staff and dog.

Thanks for your expertise!

Charlie