Wounded solders at Desford

[Jane Hayward]

1 minute ago, Matlock1418 said:

I think this is probably Robert ROSS, S/11370, Cameron Highlanders as you seem to have mentioned him before.

Have lost track - has this been mentioned before? - there's a single pension idex card at WFA/Fold3

Discharged 14.12.18

Unspecified disability - awarded 5/6 pw from 15.12.18 until further notice = Under the 1918 RW that was the 20% disability rate for a pension Class V soldier /Pte

M

Yes, I'm ploughing trough the liist of soldiers (it's on page 9) and adding all the info I can find. He seems to have been switched to non-active work shortly after Desford.

[Jane Hayward]

55 minutes ago, PRC said:

Probably narrower than that. Unless Clarke's return to England was for a routine minor operation, (albeit one that required lengthy convalescence), it's unlikely he went immediately to Desford Hall.

And as I said earlier, Flack is likely to have received a period of discharge leave (furlough) before he had to report back to his Regiment - typically 7 days, (but sometimes longer).
Hopefully there will be a few more surviving service records for the individuals in the same picture that will help narrow things down.

Cheers,
Peter

Yes, I"m figuring keeping it the broadest it could possibly be as I go through everyone's records, or at least those on Ancestry/Fold, then I'm hoping there'll be a logical small window including your reasoning.

Edited 2 March by Jane Hayward

[PRC]

41 minutes ago, Jane Hayward said:

Yes, I"m figuring keeping it the broadest it could possibly be as I go through everyone's records, or at least those on Ancestry/Fold

If you're a spreadsheet jockey I'd suggest something like this as a visual way to keep track of the likely period of the photo, (alternative ways are available!)

Yellow for days he might have been resident, green for days most likely resident in the above example. Add in additional months as required and new lines as the details for the individuals are discovered.

Somewhere like Desford Hall would have been a satellite of a War Hospital, allowing for speedy re-admission in the event of a relapse or complications, so you are seldom likely in my experience to get the stay at the likes of Desford Hall specifically identified. At best the assumption would be that the period before discharge furlough began is likely to have been spent at such a place of convalescense.

Cheers,
Peter

[Jane Hayward]

I've never done a spreadsheet - it looks like I should! Yes, I saw in 61 Bernard Cleary's record that it was just as you say. He had a Desford stay sandwiched between two hospital stays. 

[TEW]

I found some service records from my original MH106 list for "Desford Hall". These are not soldiers featured in Jane's photos.

The relevant form covered their time at Desford as per the MH106 description but their service file did not not mention Desford at all.

Not sure why we're not picking up any mentions of Desford in service/pension files but I guess it's just bad luck. VAD Aux hospitals do get mentioned sometimes.

Is there any reason there are no VADs in any of the photos? Florence Maud Morley/Norley was there from July 1915.

@Jane Hayward

Just a small correction for page 9, No. 141 Woolatt. the RAMC no. M/398458 part should read RASC.

TEW

[Bob Davies]

From a book I have in front of me called 'Leicester During The Great War' written by Ben Beazley.

Under Auxiliary units administered by the 5th Northern General Hospital ( a total of 60 locations) is says.

Desford Hall. opened 5/11/1914.

                     closed    30/4/1919.

                    accommodation   66.

                   total admissions    1,901.

The next page he has a list of;

Auxiliary hospitals affiliated to the 5th Northern General Hospital.

A total of 17 locations.

Desford Hall VAD        Number of patients dealt with  1,901.

Regards, Bob.

  

[PRC]

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

8 Harry Webster Z/4114, R.Naval Div. A shoe hand from Leicester who was born in 1887, Webster was reported missing, assumed killed in action on 23 April 1917 when with the Hood Battalion. He is commemorated on the Arras Memorial

His ADM363 record card shows him born 5th June 1897, and on the face of it doesn't record him receiving any hospital treatment during the period in question. However delve a bit deeper and there is one slim possibility.

On the 14th October 1915 he was drafted from the 5th Battalion to the 2nd Reserve Battalion at Blandford.
In a note dated 11th January 1916 he is recorded as having "run", (i.e. deserted) 29th December 1915 and pay was stopped accordingly.
On the 17th January 1916 he was recorded at Blandford.
On the 4th February 1916 it was agreed that "run" should be removed from his records.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7295275

Speculation on my part but could he have been home at Leicester on leave for Christmas and failed to return to his unit on the 29th December 1915 because he had taken ill and was admitted to hospital. Whether he or is family tried to contact the military authorities to let them know what had happened we shall probably never know, but he certainly seems to have been lost in the system. By the start of February the Navy appeared to have accepted his story and there is no record of any disciplinary action.

At the time of joining the Royal Naval Division in August 1915 his home address was given as 9 Carley Street, Leicester. His next of kin, his mother Mrs Clara Webster, gives the same address. He was recorded as 5 feet 2 and a half inches tall, and so if he is number 8 that would make sense of his height relative to the others nearby in the row.  He had dark hair, dark complexion and brown eyes. Harry had tattoo marks on both forearms but that won't helps us as he has his sleeves rolled down in the picture. He would however almost certainly have been aged 18 in the period when this picture was most likely taken, and I could well believe that of number 8.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 2 March by PRC
Typo

[Jane Hayward]

1 hour ago, TEW said:

I found some service records from my original MH106 list for "Desford Hall". These are not soldiers featured in Jane's photos.

The relevant form covered their time at Desford as per the MH106 description but their service file did not not mention Desford at all.

Not sure why we're not picking up any mentions of Desford in service/pension files but I guess it's just bad luck. VAD Aux hospitals do get mentioned sometimes.

Is there any reason there are no VADs in any of the photos? Florence Maud Morley/Norley was there from July 1915.

@Jane Hayward

Just a small correction for page 9, No. 141 Woolatt. the RAMC no. M/398458 part should read RASC.

TEW

Thank you. All corrections, large and small, welcome.

[Jane Hayward]

32 minutes ago, PRC said:

His ADM363 record card shows him born 5th June 1897, and on the face of it don't record him receiving any hospital treatment during the period in question. However delve a bit deeper and there is one slim possibility.

On the 14th October 1915 he was drafted from the 5th Battalion to the 2nd Reserve Battalion at Blandford.
In a note dated 11th January 1916 he is recorded as having "run", (i.e. deserted) 29th December 1915 and pay was stopped accordingly.
On the 17th January 1916 he was recorded at Blandford.
On the 4th February 1916 it was agreed that "run" should be removed from his records.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7295275

Speculation on my part but could he have been home at Leicester on leave for Christmas and failed to return to his unit on the 29th December 1915 because he had taken ill and was admitted to hospital. Whether he or is family tried to contact the military authorities to let them know what had happened we shall probably never know, but he certainly seems to have been lost in the system. By the start of February the Navy appeared to have accepted his story and there is no record of any disciplinary action.

At the time of joining the Royal Naval Division in August 1915 his home address was given as 9 Carley Street, Leicester. His next of kin, his mother Mrs Clara Webster, gives the same address. He was recorded as 5 feet 2 and a half inches tall, and so if he is number 8 that would make sense of his height relative to the others nearby in the row.  He had dark hair, dark complexion and brown eyes. Harry had tattoo marks on both forearms but that won't helps us as he has his sleeves rolled down in the picture. He would however almost certainly have been aged 18 in the period when this picture was most likely taken, and I could well believe that of number 8.

Cheers,
Peter

So interesting. The Blandford date means I can close the window for the photo a bit too.

[brianmorris547]

Jane

I searched the British Newspaper Archive on FMP for Leicestershire, using Desford in the keywords. It came back with a number of accounts of wounded soldiers being taken out on day trips to various places and concerts held at Desford etc

The Leicester Chronicle 02/01/1915 names all the Belgian refugees in the county, including some at Desford. It only shows the towns or cities where they were from and surnames but it does show the address of where they were staying. It does not say if those at Desford were soldiers or civilians. I will continue to look.

Since it was me who first wondered what the dog was called I must admit I have been hoping to find a mention in the reports. Nothing yet.

Brian

Edited 2 March by brianmorris547

[Jane Hayward]

Thank you, Brian, I had missed the Belgian article. I did bookmark a newspaper article that said that the first group of Belgian soldiers had arrived at Desford. It gave the date and number but no names, and I think it said that they were the only soldiers at Desford at that stage. I'll dig it out. I do wonder if the photo shows that first group.

The trips out I have found some of & they're a fantastic read. Have you seen the one that advised how to stop the soldiers drinking alcohol on a day trip? But so unhelpful that they contain endless lists of local drivers and singers and hosts and no names of soldiers unless one of them leads a 'three cheers' and thank you.

I must admit, the dog's name is on my mind also...

[Jane Hayward]

[PRC]

Apologies if some of this has already been covered. As I don’t subscribe to the likes of Ancestry \ FindMyPast \ Fold3 or the British Newspaper Archive \ Newspapers com, I can’t check many of the sources.

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

2 Thomas Walker Leith, 18296, Royal Scots Fusiliers. Born on 7 April 1897 in Ayr, Leith entered service two months before his 18th birthday on 5 February 1915. He disembarked in France on 12 July and, after suffering a gunshot wound in the left leg, returned to the UK. He was discharged the following year on 28 August 1916.

MiC shows him first serving with the 1st Battalion. As the 1st Battalion had been out in France since the 14th August 1914, he was part of a replacement draft.
The Official Casualty list that appeared in the edition of The Times dated 14th October 1915 records him as among the wounded of the 1st Battalion.
British Newspaper Archives also have the Casualty List in the (Lanarkshire) Daily Record and the London Evening Standard, both dated 14th October 1915.

It should only be used as an indicator but the same casualty list has the following 1st Battalion other ranks as killed, (information in brackets comes from CWGC)
8938 Lance Corporal P. Clifton. (Percy H. Clifton, died 25th September 1915. Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial)
5956 Acting Corporal J. Connor. (John Connor, died 25th September 1915. Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial)
9009 Private H. Elsom. (Herbert Elsom, died 25th September 1915. Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial)
8806 Drummer W. Nevans. (W. Nevans, died 25th September 1915, recovered from the battlefield in 1921 and identified from his damaged disc and paybook)
17217 Lance Corporal H. Percy. (Harry Percy, died 25th September 1915. Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial)
9736 Corporal E. Richardson. (Serjeant Edward H. Richardson, died 25th September 1915. Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial)
17946 Acting Corporal J. Thomson. (James Thomson, died 25th September 1915. Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial)
15894 Private A. Wedgewood. (Arthur WEDGWOOD, died 25th September 1915. Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial)
17312 Lance-Corporal J. Whitelaw. (J. Whitelaw, died 25th September 1915, recovered from the battlefield in 1921 and identified by his disc.)

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

3 Harry Addy, 13186, 264135, King’s Own Yorkshire Light Infantry Labour Corps. Born in 1892 and from Lockwood near Huddersfield, Addy disembarked in France on 10 September 1915. He was discharged on 20 November 1917. His pension records show that in 1920 he was granted a payment of 5s 6d per week for a disability judged as less than 20 per cent, which was discontinued the following year.

May be a co-incidence but the 9th and 10th KOYLI went to France in September 1915 as part of the 64th Brigade of the 21st Division. He crops up in casualty lists in early June 1916 under the KOYLI service number. The casualty list in the Leeds Mercury 2nd June 1916 associates him with Huddersfield.

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

5 John McIntosh (Lance Corporal), 12553 Royal Scots Fusiliers (also 180947 Royal Engineers and Wr/256917 Royal Scots (Lothian Regiment)

The WR/256917 service number relates to the Royal Engineers and was part of a wider renumbering carried out by the Corps that took place – I believe - in 1918. He has three MiC’s but only the one where he is shown as “Royal Scots” in error shows his entitlement to the 1914/15 Star, having first landed in France on the 3rd December 1914.

FindMyPast are showing service records for him under the two Royal Engineers service numbers – dating from 1914 and year of birth as c1894.
Familysearch don’t have the paperwork online but they have them as burnt series records (WO363), and give him as resident Ayr, Scotland. Starts 1914, ends 1919.
But I’m not readily spotting them indexed on Ancestry.

A casualty list that appeared in the Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer dated 16th January 1915 records 12553 Lance Corporal J. McIntosh as wounded and serving with the 1st Battalion. Unfortunately the other names in the thumbnail available to non-subscribers to the British Newspaper Archive are recorded as “sick”. I can’t find the equivalent in The Times.

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

6 John William Sutcliffe 2995,Loyal North Lancashire Regiment. A Southport man who was discharged on 22 (altered number) November 1916 suffering from hepatitis

MiC shows first landed in France on the 12th February 1915. May be a co-incidence but the 1/5th Battalion landed in France about that date. Nothing obvious in the casualty list.

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

7 Charles Urguhart Willox, 15873, Royal Scots. A Mancunian born in 1895, Willox disembarked in France on 11 May 1915. He was discharged on 22 October 1916 suffering from bronchitis

MiC shows Charles URQUHART Willox landed with the 12th Battalion when it deployed overseas.

FindMyPast are showing service records dating from 1916, born Cowdenbeath, Fife, born c1895.
Familysearch shows them as unburnt WO364 series records.
Ancestry will have them under pension records – those are now impossible to search for non-subscribers.

Nothing obvious in the casualty lists I have visibility of.

Cheers,
Peter

[Jane Hayward]

Thank you Peter! I can't find more details for Willox on Ancestry than those I have. I need another coffee for McIntosh's number details. I find him confusing.

Edited 3 March by Jane Hayward
find

[Jane Hayward]

20 hours ago, TEW said:

I found some service records from my original MH106 list for "Desford Hall". These are not soldiers featured in Jane's photos.

The relevant form covered their time at Desford as per the MH106 description but their service file did not not mention Desford at all.

Not sure why we're not picking up any mentions of Desford in service/pension files but I guess it's just bad luck. VAD Aux hospitals do get mentioned sometimes.

Is there any reason there are no VADs in any of the photos? Florence Maud Morley/Norley was there from July 1915.

@Jane Hayward

Just a small correction for page 9, No. 141 Woolatt. the RAMC no. M/398458 part should read RASC.

TEW

I am thinking that when I go to Leicester Record Office I will be able to scoop up missing staff as they say they have quite a lot of named photos. They've said they only have two of [my grandmother with] soldiers though, so my hopes are low on that front.

[TEW]

I noticed your enquiry regarding Roman Numerals. It's a method of classification of wounds.

TEW

 

[Jane Hayward]

Thank you TEW, that's a really helpful tool.

[brianmorris547]

The Melton Mowbray Mercury 31/12/1914 has the list of Belgians in the County but with more details of the names. 

This photograph was in the Leicester Chronicle 08/07/1916 and might help date some of Jane's pictures. 

Brian

[TEW]

I've had a look at some of the so far unidentified.

I'm not suggesting these are all going to be 100% IDs but maybe work in progress and needs further checking.

I went through the page 9 list for photo 1 until I had Casualty List dates for 10 of the known men. The tally is:
Aug 1915 - 1
Oct 1915 - 4
Nov 1915 - 2
Jan 1916 - 3

I'll come back to the relevance of that!

I'll start with:
40 Noon 161???.

#40 is an older man with the right arm of his jacket hanging loose IE. no arm in it. That has some potential for a wound and publication in a CL.

There is a James Noon, 9th Scottish Rifles. He is on a CL for Oct 1915 (relevance of the tally). His number on this list is 16051 but his actual number is 16651. There are pension card/ledger hits for him which may detail an injury to right arm? I can't view the results I'm afraid.

 

Next:

42 3042?

Tricky one obviously, bear with me!

He is on the damaged portion of the rear, only a little ink remains. A small part of the remaining ink seems to me to match the unit given for #36 Webster who is Black Watch.

I think the tch of Black Watch matches?

#42 is a young lad with a bandaged right eye.

Just to add some complexity there are two Black Watch men with a CL date of Oct 1915 and a 3042 number.
3042 John Price 4th BW
3042 Robert Sloan 9th BW

However, Sloan is actually numbered 3945. MICs for both men could indicate either man.

Both men have pension card/ledger hits which may help eliminate.

NB. There is another 3042 John Price from Llwynfilly with a few pages of a pension record. This man is a red-herring.

 

Next up is #53 from photo 2

53 Hames, 19868 Notts & Derby - MIC William HASSELL (?)

There is John Haynes 19868 1st Notts & Derby, on a CL of June 1915. He transferred to the West Yorks with number 47674 which is showing some pension card/ledger hits which might indicate an older injury to left arm.

 

Lastly.

54 Murray, 7026 2nd Gordons

There is a Percy Murray 7056 2nd Gordon Highlanders CL published June 1915. Later Labour Corps 487529

Medal Index Card

NB. There's also a Patrick Murray 7056 Irish Guards another red-herring.

A very complicated Pension file indexed under Patrick might have conflated 487529/7056 & 3544 into a Patrick Murray of Gordon Highlanders AKA Percy Murray Labour Corps. There's a B.103 sheet for Percy of Scotland and other sheets for Patrick of Ireland muddled together.

Percy Murray 487529 & 7056 was wounded May 1915 and evacuated to England

Either way there are pension card/ledger hits for Murray under 7056, 7026, 3244 & 487529 which someone may be able to weed through.

I don't see any obvious injury to #54

TEW

 

[Jane Hayward]

1 hour ago, brianmorris547 said:

The Melton Mowbray Mercury 31/12/1914 has the list of Belgians in the County but with more details of the names. 

This photograph was in the Leicester Chronicle 08/07/1916 and might help date some of Jane's pictures. 

Brian

Thank you, Brian. I see they're all in hospital clothes whereas the men in my grandmother's pic were all in their own (and looked a lot less merry and bright.

[Jane Hayward]

TEW, the mistakes on my grandmother's notes makes me think that she is copying from another list, either her own or someone else's, or maybe someone is reading them aloud to her. Either she or someone else is misreading numbers. 

Amazing detective work. Do you think there's room for a sling under (James) Noon's coat rather than an amputation? He looks bulky. I can't see details of an injury on Ancestry anywhere. What is this about Chelsea written at the time of his discharge, I wonder?

[PRC]

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

9 George Edward Taylor,  2934, 240795 5th York and Lancs. Discharged on 5 November 1918

Service Medal MiC shows him landed in France on the 28^th June 1915 – and only has his 1917 TF renumber from the range issued to the 5^th Battalions of the York and Lancaster Regiment. SWB MiC has him enlisted 27^th June 1914 discharged 25^th March 1919 – but I’m looking at the watermarked version in the National Archive catalogue, (my hard drives are getting too full up to download anything non-essential!).

The 1/5^th Battalion had been in France since the 14^th April 1915 so he was part of a replacement draft.

FindMyPast show service records dating from 1914. Born Great Britain c1896 (2934) or c1892 (240795)
Familysearch have them indexed as burnt records (WO363 series) and resident Yorkshire.
Ancestry have them as service records.

He appears in the Official Casualty List in the edition of The Times dated January 12^th, 1916 as amongst the casualties of the 5^th Battalion (T.F.), York and Lancaster Regiment.

Again it’s only a guide but Other Ranks of the same Battalion shown as Killed in that Casualty List are:-
3952 Private E. Bailey. (E. Bailey. Died 19^th December 1915, buried Bard Cottage Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium).
184 Sergeant F. Carpenter. (Frank Hervey Carpenter. Died 19^th December 1915, buried Bard Cottage Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium).
3562 Private V. Cawthorne. (Vernon Cawthorne. Died 19^th December 1915, buried Bard Cottage Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium).
1457 Drummer W.Cook. (William Cook. Died 19^th December 1915, buried Bard Cottage Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium).
3431 Private A.P. Gray. (Arthur Percy Gray. Died 19^th December 1915, buried Bard Cottage Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium).
2136 Private A. Greasley. [Died 19th December 1915, buried Bard Cottage Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium.]
2427 Private W.H. Howell. [Died 19th December 1915, buried Bard Cottage Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium).]
3751 Private W. Mellor. [Died 19th December 1915, buried Bard Cottage Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium).]
77 Acting Lance-Sergeant A. Morgan. [Died 19th December 1915, buried Bard Cottage Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium).]
3145 Private H. Morris. [Died 19th December 1915, buried Bard Cottage Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium).]
2364 Lance Corporal C. Murdoch. [Died 19th December 1915, buried Bard Cottage Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium).]
2428 Private R.H. Nicholson. [Died 19th December 1915, buried Bard Cottage Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium).]
878 Private J. Silkstone. [Died 19th December 1915, buried Bard Cottage Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium).]

(Information in round brackets comes from CWGC).[ Information in square brackets comes from running a query on Geoff’s Search Engine looking for 5^th Battalion men who died on the 19^th December 1915 and who are buried in Bard Cottage Cemetery – used after the CWGC database became in accessible so couldn’t follow the links].

BNA have the casualty list, (service number 2934), in the 15^th January 1916 edition of the Barnsley Independent.

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

10 Charles Henry Seamarks (Pte), 17970, Northamptonshire Regiment. Seamarks was born in 1887. A married man from Rushden, he worked as a shoehand finisher before the war. After enlisting on 25 April 1915, he landed in France on 28 July. At some point he suffered a gunshot wound to the lower jaw and head, and was discharged on 29 October 1917. Seamarks was judged 20 per cent disabled in 1921, and was awarded 8s a week plus an amount to support his two children. 

Appears in the Official Casualty list in the edition of The Times dated November 1^st, 1915, as amongst the wounded of the 1^st Battalion, Northamptonshire Regiment.There are no Other Ranks of the 1^st Battalion recorded as killed in the same Casualty List.

Of the other 1^st Battalion Other Ranks listed as wounded -  7661 Lance Corporal J. Badger; 18492 Private E. Barrett; 17486 Private H. Clarke; 17786 Private T. Hughes; 19259 Private T. Hughes; 7260 Private A. Mills; 17875 Private G. Pateman; 9824 Private B. Tebbutt; 7666 Private J. Tompkins; 3/8979 Private H. Willis;  -

John Badger, Ernest Barrett, and James TOMKINS are shown on FindMyPast with surviving service records. They also have something under 8979 H. Willis, but given the lack of indexing detail I suspect its another one of the entries on a memo \ casualty that was recovered from another man’s service record.

Given the date of first landing he would have been part of a replacement draft.

BNA have him in a Casualty List in the Northampton Mercury edition dated 5^th November 1915.

Cheers,
Peter

[Jane Hayward]

TEW, I feel like this should have a drum roll. You have surely found him. John Price with a severe gunshot wound on the face.

Edited 3 March by Jane Hayward

[Jane Hayward]

His pension record says he has a 90 per cent disability and awards him 36 shillings a week (22.10.19) 

Robert Sloan is 3942 on all his Ancestry records, so we can say that 42 is John Price? 

Edited 3 March by Jane Hayward

[brianmorris547]

Jane

Just noticed this one paragraph report in the Illustrated Leicester Chronicle 24/03/1917. 

Brian