Wounded solders at Desford

[Jane Hayward]

Thank you for all your help & encouragement, Bob!

[PRC]

10 hours ago, Jane Hayward said:

I couldn't read this part of his service records but am learning that the smudged, indecipherable bits may be the most interesting parts. I have no idea what this says at all, if anybody has better eyes than me.

My eyesight is pretty rubbish but I have to say I’m seeing much the same as @Bob Davies.

Attested on the 16^th August 1910 and reported to the 2^nd Battalion, York and Lancaster Regiment  at Blackdown on the 17^th August 1910 with the rank of Private.

(A new recruit wouldn’t normally go straight to a Battalion – by any chance does his attestation show him already serving with the Militia?)

The 1910 edition of Harts Annual Army list shows the 2^nd Battalion commenced the year stationed at Blackdown. The 1^st Battalion were at Quetta in India.)

On the 4^th March 1913 and still a Private, he was posted to the 1^st Battalion.

(As the 1^st Battalion were still in India at the commencement of the war, it looks like he travelled out to serve with them.

According to the Long, Long Trail:-
1st Battalion
August 1914 : in Jubbulpore in India. Returned to England 23 December 1914. Moved to Hursley Park and joined 83rd Brigade in 28th Division.
17 January 1915 : landed at Le Havre.
Moved to Egypt in October 1915 and thence to Salonika, arriving in early December.
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/york-lancaster-regiment/

In a note dated 8^th January 1915 it looks originally like the entry was going to read “Forfeits Pay absent + ??? (illegible), but this has been added to “further absense 1.1.15 – 11-1-15”.

If he was absent till the 11^th, (or possibly the 14^th), then how can the note have been written on the 8^th.

Adding to that looking across the page the total for this period that doesn’t count towards his service looks like 7 days,  - so the whole thing doesn’t add up.

Down the bottom of the columns there should be some totals. Is the total for the column with 7 in it also 7 or is it a higher number.

I’m assuming he made the Police Gazette because he had two periods of absence close together. Given the dates I’m also assuming he is another one who didn’t report back after leave.

6 hours ago, Jane Hayward said:

Were troops able to return from France for leave and their movements between the two countries would not be recorded on their service records? It seems obvious the answer must be yes but I hadn't take it into account.

Real hit and miss as to what makes it into the records we can see.

Even during the Great War a soldiers records would have been “weeded” with superfluous pages removed. Between the war the process continued, so likely what went up in flames in the blitz was only a pale shadow of a mans file. I suspect records of leave would be the sort of document that wouldn’t be retained, and when you do come across reference to it, it is because the document was saved for some other reason.

Documents like the B.103 Casualty Form active service is the most likely as that can give far more detail than any statement of service. But I think I’ve only ever seen UK leave recorded there – never in-theatre leave. An for some of the Norfolk Regiment men who have surviving service records I’ve tried reconciling those to local press reports of men home on leave and I don’t think I’ve ever had a match.

Cheers,
Peter

[PRC]

And now with a little late night Deefer madness 

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

[Bob Davies]

7 minutes ago, PRC said:

And now with a little late night Deefer madness 

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

Fantastic set of comparative pics Peter, thank you. Brilliant job.

D4, D4, D7 I believe are the same older white muzzel Dog.

D1 and D3 are the same Dog.

We have to remember that wet dog and dry dog look different, even though they are the same dog.

Also summer coat dog and winter coat dog look different, even though they are the same dog.

A labrador or lab cross springer spaniel can live to age 14 and look pretty much the same as each other, apart from ears and top of head.

D6 is the same as D4, D7 and D11 and D 12

D1 and D3 are younger dogs probably the same dog. Their ears start from the head in a different place than D4,  D6,  D7, D11 and D12.

Also I don't think they would go muzzel grey in that short a period.

So Sister Harpers Dog is I think a different dog to the other two.

I think we have three different Dogs.

 

 

[Jane Hayward]

I'm laughing my socks off. Fantastic 

[Jane Hayward]

16 hours ago, PRC said:

My eyesight is pretty rubbish but I have to say I’m seeing much the same as @Bob Davies.

 

Attested on the 16^th August 1910 and reported to the 2^nd Battalion, York and Lancaster Regiment  at Blackdown on the 17^th August 1910 with the rank of Private.

 

(A new recruit wouldn’t normally go straight to a Battalion – by any chance does his attestation show him already serving with the Militia?)

The 1910 edition of Harts Annual Army list shows the 2^nd Battalion commenced the year stationed at Blackdown. The 1^st Battalion were at Quetta in India.)

 

On the 4^th March 1913 and still a Private, he was posted to the 1^st Battalion.

 

(As the 1^st Battalion were still in India at the commencement of the war, it looks like he travelled out to serve with them.

According to the Long, Long Trail:-
1st Battalion
August 1914 : in Jubbulpore in India. Returned to England 23 December 1914. Moved to Hursley Park and joined 83rd Brigade in 28th Division.
17 January 1915 : landed at Le Havre.
Moved to Egypt in October 1915 and thence to Salonika, arriving in early December.
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/york-lancaster-regiment/

 

 

I have absolutely no idea, Peter. His records seem to go backwards and I'm not sure if I'm reading someone else's. I'll have to leave him & come back later.

Real hit and miss as to what makes it into the records we can see. 

Even during the Great War a soldiers records would have been “weeded” with superfluous pages removed. Between the war the process continued, so likely what went up in flames in the blitz was only a pale shadow of a mans file. I suspect records of leave would be the sort of document that wouldn’t be retained, and when you do come across reference to it, it is because the document was saved for some other reason. 

Documents like the B.103 Casualty Form active service is the most likely as that can give far more detail than any statement of service. But I think I’ve only ever seen UK leave recorded there – never in-theatre leave. An for some of the Norfolk Regiment men who have surviving service records I’ve tried reconciling those to local press reports of men home on leave and I don’t think I’ve ever had a match.

Thanks, Peter. It's confusing but I'm getting that you have to take what you can find.

[Jane Hayward]

On 04/03/2024 at 14:02, TEW said:

Photo 2.

Another batch of 'unidentified so far'. Again I checked through Casualty Lists for 10 men and found:
Feb 1915 - 1
March 1915 - 2
June 1915 - 7.

There are some anomolies with the above but I'm just using it to check the probability of an unknown against a likely CL entry.

58 LINTON 8739 / LINTON 8970 K R R

I'm not sure where 8739 comes from. There is a CL entry for 8075 C Linton KRRC in Oct 1915 which may seem out of kilter but the Report Recieved date is April-May 1915 which re-aligns it.

I believe the 8075 to be incorrect and that Charles Linton KRRC is 8975, trasferred to Labour Corps as 448673.

There are pension ledgers/cards for him under 8975.

 

I have finally reached your men, TEW. I am going with Linton 8975. Thank so much by the way for flagging up red herrings. I'm finding those warnings very helpful indeed.

[Jane Hayward]

94 Thomas Beevers (Lance Corp), 2841, N Staff. From Tatenhill, Staffordshire. The IWM Bond of Sacrifice has a photograph of him (https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205290368) and records him as Lance Corporal Thomas Beevers 2841/240622. Unit 1st/6th Battalion, North Staffordshire Regiment. Death 1 July 1916, Somme, Western Front. Commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial.

[PRC]

2 hours ago, Jane Hayward said:

94 Thomas Beevers (Lance Corp), 2841, N Staff. From Tatenhill, Staffordshire. The IWM Bond of Sacrifice has a photograph of him (https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205290368) and records him as Lance Corporal Thomas Beevers 2841/240622. Unit 1st/6th Battalion, North Staffordshire Regiment. Death 1 July 1916, Somme, Western Front. Commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial.

So a side by side comparison would look like this:-

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

[Jane Hayward]

Unmistakable. A very handsome man.

On a different note, NO74 Charles Scott's 11 tattoos: 

 

 

[TEW]

102 Leighton, 3488, 1488? Staff Yeo

Not 100% convinced about this but there is a Leighton with service with the Staffs. Yeomanry.

His number doesn't really match that well but he has numbers 300361, 235647 & 3045.

He has pension Cards/ledgers under 300361 which give the same reference number but different middle names - Charles Curtus leighton and Charles Arthur Leighton.

He didn't serve abroad until 10/11/1915 Egypt which matches the history for 1/1st Staffs. Yeo. This must be after his time at Desford? He certainly isn't displaying any injury so is presumably there for a sickness recoverery.

 

143 Massay, 6 Liverpool

I looked at this again and there is something after the '6' and before 'Liverpool'. Going out on a limb here but it may be '6th Liverpools' rather than a regimental number.

From a Aug 1915 CL there is #1683 Bertram Sourke Murry. Gained a commision in Nov 1915. Date of entry to theatre Feb 1915.

There may be a photo of him out there somewhere or an Officers File?

TEW

 

[TEW]

While looking into 102 Leighton and 143 Massay I've confused myself!

From the listing on page 9 the date for photo 1 is between 29/12/1915 and 12/1/1916.  Date for photo 3 is late August/early September 1915.

I can't deny the Leicester Chronical article 28/8/1915 which places three men from photo 3 visting Enderby Hall.

Extracts from Photos 1 & 3 to me show that 1 is earlier than 3 based on the vegetation growth up the walls and around the windows.

I can't see pruning as an explanation, I can see growth being more vigorous in an August photo but not shrunk back like this 4 months later, not sure what the plant is but there is ivy further to the right which also appears more verdant in 3. I don't think Ivy shrinks back at all during winter nor does it re-align itself.

TEW

[Jane Hayward]

2 hours ago, TEW said:

143 Massay, 6 Liverpool

I looked at this again and there is something after the '6' and before 'Liverpool'. Going out on a limb here but it may be '6th Liverpools' rather than a regimental number.

From a Aug 1915 CL there is #1683 Bertram Sourke Murry. Gained a commision in Nov 1915. Date of entry to theatre Feb 1915.

There may be a photo of him out there somewhere or an Officers File?

TEW

 

I've gone back to the unaltered photo which I had to sharpen up because the pencil was faded, and I think you can see it's a t?

[TEW]

Yes, I thought I saw a 't' which to me makes more sense if it was supposed to be a 'th'.

TEW

 

[Jane Hayward]

On 83 John Tilbury why would RE have been crossed out and MAS put in? He is only listed as having been in the Royal Engineers.

[Jane Hayward]

2 hours ago, TEW said:

While looking into 102 Leighton and 143 Massay I've confused myself!

From the listing on page 9 the date for photo 1 is between 29/12/1915 and 12/1/1916.  Date for photo 3 is late August/early September 1915.

I can't deny the Leicester Chronical article 28/8/1915 which places three men from photo 3 visting Enderby Hall.

Extracts from Photos 1 & 3 to me show that 1 is earlier than 3 based on the vegetation growth up the walls and around the windows.

I can't see pruning as an explanation, I can see growth being more vigorous in an August photo but not shrunk back like this 4 months later, not sure what the plant is but there is ivy further to the right which also appears more verdant in 3. I don't think Ivy shrinks back at all during winter nor does it re-align itself.

TEW

Is the slender bit of creeper to the right of the second window higher though less bushy on pic 1 than 3? 

[TEW]

I don't think RE has been crossed out, just the way it's written. TheGenealogist have transcribed the other bit as MFS. Not sure what that is but presumably a sub set of the RE. The card also shows RTO which is Rail Transport Officer.

Ah!! His 1914 Star Roll has Military Forwarding Staff which has a connection to the railways.

 

Quote

is the slender bit of creeper to the right of the second window higher though less bushy on pic 1 than 3?

If we're looking at the same bit I'm seeing it as taller and bushier in photo3 which is supposedly earlier.

Further right (off my crops) the ivy? is covering a downpipe which is just visible in photo1.

TEW

 

[Jane Hayward]

4 minutes ago, TEW said:

I don't think RE has been crossed out, just the way it's written. TheGenealogist have transcribed the other bit as MFS. Not sure what that is but presumably a sub set of the RE. The card also shows RTO which is Rail Transport Officer.

Ah!! His 1914 Star Roll has Military Forwarding Staff which has a connection to the railways.

 

If we're looking at the same bit I'm seeing it as taller and bushier in photo3 which is supposedly earlier.

Further right (off my crops) the ivy? is covering a downpipe which is just visible in photo1.

TEW

 

Thank you! I am obviously missing a lot of detail on these cards.

[Jane Hayward]

This is a curious one. 91 Frank A Budd has been marked as a deserter - deserted 1 8 15, perhaps just after Desford - oe one record but it's scored through on another. And here it does the same and the word 'Returned' is there. It also seems to say that he earlier served as FA Barnes in the Royal Canadian Dragoons?

Edited 8 March by Jane Hayward

[PRC]

13 minutes ago, Jane Hayward said:

This is a curious one. 91 Frank A Budd has been marked as a deserter - deserted 1 8 15, perhaps just after Desford - oe one record but it's scored through on another. And here it does the same and the word 'Returned' is there. It also seems to say that he earlier served as FA Barnes in the Royal Canadian Dragoons?

It's worth checking the information on his 1914 Star Roll as I suspect it actually reads "Dis" as in Discharged 1-8-15.

Looking at Paul Nixons' Army Service number website, the Regular Army battalions of the Royal Sussex Regiment would have issued service number 9350 as some point between the 5th April 1909 (9210) and the 7th July 1910 (9413). https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/05/royal-sussex-regiment-1st-2nd.html

So with a 12 year term for a pre-war short service enlistment, (which the Army could unilaterally extend by up to 12 months if we were at war), then he didn't leave the army because he was time expired. And as he retained his entitlement to his service medals any discharge was honourable - which would point circumstantially to him being discharged as no longer fit for war service. Which in turn might explain the change of name, and when he enlisted in Kingston, Ontario on the 28th October 1915 as Frank Arthur Barnes he stated he had no previous military experience. His Canadian service record can be found here. https://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item/?op=pdf&app=CEF&id=B0446-S001

The "Returned" bit refers to the Victory and British War Medals in the name of Budd - he was returning them probably as he was getting them in the name of Barnes from the Canadian authorities. It looks like he also returned his original 1914 Star with Clasp and Roses but later that was re-issued in England.

Cheers,
Peter

[Jane Hayward]

Sorry, should have posted both at the same time. I'm sure it says deserted on here, and it's mentioned on his Find My Past entry.

Edited 8 March by Jane Hayward

[TEW]

I think Budd/Barnes is a little more complex. It does look like he deserted 1/8/15 got himself to Canada where he enlisted in Oct 1915. 

His Budd medals were returned under KR 1743 which means they had no address for him. He was back in Canada by this time.

In 1934 he applied for a 14 Star & Clasp and Rose.

Being a deserter that would have generated a lot of questions and correspondence but that application was processed under a restitution list. So, he was pardoned for desertion. His BWM & Vict were issued by Canada.

Nothing in his Canadian file I can see before Oct 1915.

TEW

[Jane Hayward]

It's fascinating. I'm speculating that he met Canadian soldiers at Desford, which sparked something in him. I can't see him on passenger lists arriving in Canada in 1915 under either surname.

Edited to say: looking at the picture again, I see BuddBarnes is standing next to No 90 Hubert Westacott, who  was in Ontario at the outbreak of the war. He was a Londoner and his mother's address is still a London one on his Canadian sign-up form, so he presumably travelled to Canada as an adult and talked a lot about his experiences.

Edited 9 March by Jane Hayward

[Bob Davies]

7 hours ago, TEW said:

While looking into 102 Leighton and 143 Massay I've confused myself!

From the listing on page 9 the date for photo 1 is between 29/12/1915 and 12/1/1916.  Date for photo 3 is late August/early September 1915.

I can't deny the Leicester Chronical article 28/8/1915 which places three men from photo 3 visting Enderby Hall.

Extracts from Photos 1 & 3 to me show that 1 is earlier than 3 based on the vegetation growth up the walls and around the windows.

I can't see pruning as an explanation, I can see growth being more vigorous in an August photo but not shrunk back like this 4 months later, not sure what the plant is but there is ivy further to the right which also appears more verdant in 3. I don't think Ivy shrinks back at all during winter nor does it re-align itself.

TEW

Fantastic work all

TEW, if we look at the bigger picture, pun intended, if this helps and does not confuse us all further as I am in the same boat.

Picture 1.        (photo 1 is between 29/12/1915 and 12/1/1916.)

No leaves on the tree to the right, so October/November to April/May ish.

I think that there is new growth over the lower window to the left of the picture, which starts earlier than the leaves appear on the trees. or it is new slow growth after being pruned late in late 1915.

I have to prune our own ivy each year, for many years now and it is a determined animal!

Picture 3. (photo 3 is late August/early September 1915.)   Lots of leaves on the tree to the right so May to October ish.  

The Ivy has been pruned possibly in May, June 1915 but it has gone mad again.    

However, in its next growth spurt it has gone mad without sticking to the wall, as seen in picture 3.  It does that sort of thing.

So I think you have got the dates correct.

Regards, Bob.

 

[PRC]

2 hours ago, TEW said:

I think Budd/Barnes is a little more complex. It does look like he deserted 1/8/15 got himself to Canada where he enlisted in Oct 1915.

Deserted it is - I stand corrected!

1 hour ago, Bob Davies said:

TEW, if we look at the bigger picture, pun intended, if this helps and does not confuse us all further as I am in the same boat.

Picture 1.        (photo 1 is between 29/12/1915 and 12/1/1916.)

I have been wondering if that is Virginia Creeper rather than Ivy, as that dies back in winter, but in a number of the picture the leaves can be more clearly seen and I'm 99.9% sure it's Ivy.

I've mentioned it before but to me the grass in Picture 1 looks waterlogged - something has been dragged across it in the foreground and it still hasn't sprung back into shape. The patients in the front row appear to be on some form of sheeting and the rest are on the gravel.

In picture 3 however the grass is lush and even. There is no sheeting under the front and all present appear to be on the grass.

On a non-gardening angle, is it possible to see anything through the windows or is it all just reflections. In picture 1 in particular would you not potentially expect to see Chritstmas decorations up - possibly until the 6th January? Of course they may have been reserved for the main communal areas rather than the wards.

Finally - @Bob Davies specialist subject. Is Deefer in summer or winter coats in pictures 1 and 3.

Cheers,
Peter