Wounded solders at Desford

[Jane Hayward]

I know, Brian! Thanks for posting. I spotted it the other day and fished out my grandparents' wedding certificate. The Major was a witness. I don't have any photos or more info about it at all though.

[TEW]

Jane,

Didn't want to say either way regarding Noon's arm. Perhaps it is hidden from view or it's amputated. I had hoped pension records might give an age and/or injury to match up or use to eliminate.

John Price certainly looks to be a good match injury and age wise. Quite a good extraction of details from a torn piece of paper.

I had pondered on discussing how the names arrived on the reverse.

I have worked through lists of hospital patients before and there's usually a ratio of mistakes for numbers, names and units even when taken officially. 

Odd things happen though. Mckail 1165 is actually 1166 but his MIC has both numbers noting that 1166 is correct but perhaps he claimed to be 1165 all along, so may not be your Grandmother's mistake.

If a patient arrived at hospital with any wrong detail in his official paperwork it might never get corrected.

TEW

[Jane Hayward]

John Price certainly looks to be a good match injury and age wise. Quite a good extraction of details from a torn piece of paper.

Genius, frankly.

I can't find any mention of John Haynes 19868 Notts & Derby on Ancestry at all, though. 

[Jane Hayward]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Service Medal MiC shows him landed in France on the 28^th June 1915 – and only has his 1917 TF renumber from the range issued to the 5^th Battalions of the York and Lancaster Regiment. SWB MiC has him enlisted 27^th June 1914 discharged 25^th March 1919 – but I’m looking at the watermarked version in the National Archive catalogue, (my hard drives are getting too full up to download anything non-essential!).

 

The 1/5^th Battalion had been in France since the 14^th April 1915 so he was part of a replacement draft.

 

FindMyPast show service records dating from 1914. Born Great Britain c1896 (2934) or c1892 (240795)
Familysearch have them indexed as burnt records (WO363 series) and resident Yorkshire.
Ancestry have them as service records.

 

He appears in the Official Casualty List in the edition of The Times dated January 12^th, 1916 as amongst the casualties of the 5^th Battalion (T.F.), York and Lancaster Regiment.

 

Again it’s only a guide but Other Ranks of the same Battalion shown as Killed in that Casualty List are:-
3952 Private E. Bailey. (E. Bailey. Died 19^th December 1915, buried Bard Cottage Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium).
184 Sergeant F. Carpenter. (Frank Hervey Carpenter. Died 19^th December 1915, buried Bard Cottage Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium).
3562 Private V. Cawthorne. (Vernon Cawthorne. Died 19^th December 1915, buried Bard Cottage Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium).
1457 Drummer W.Cook. (William Cook. Died 19^th December 1915, buried Bard Cottage Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium).
3431 Private A.P. Gray. (Arthur Percy Gray. Died 19^th December 1915, buried Bard Cottage Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium).
2136 Private A. Greasley. [Died 19th December 1915, buried Bard Cottage Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium.]
2427 Private W.H. Howell. [Died 19th December 1915, buried Bard Cottage Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium).]
3751 Private W. Mellor. [Died 19th December 1915, buried Bard Cottage Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium).]
77 Acting Lance-Sergeant A. Morgan. [Died 19th December 1915, buried Bard Cottage Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium).]
3145 Private H. Morris. [Died 19th December 1915, buried Bard Cottage Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium).]
2364 Lance Corporal C. Murdoch. [Died 19th December 1915, buried Bard Cottage Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium).]
2428 Private R.H. Nicholson. [Died 19th December 1915, buried Bard Cottage Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium).]
878 Private J. Silkstone. [Died 19th December 1915, buried Bard Cottage Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium).]

(Information in round brackets comes from CWGC).[ Information in square brackets comes from running a query on Geoff’s Search Engine looking for 5^th Battalion men who died on the 19^th December 1915 and who are buried in Bard Cottage Cemetery – used after the CWGC database became in accessible so couldn’t follow the links].

BNA have the casualty list, (service number 2934), in the 15^th January 1916 edition of the Barnsley Independent.

Appears in the Official Casualty list in the edition of The Times dated November 1^st, 1915, as amongst the wounded of the 1^st Battalion, Northamptonshire Regiment.There are no Other Ranks of the 1^st Battalion recorded as killed in the same Casualty List.

 

Of the other 1^st Battalion Other Ranks listed as wounded -  7661 Lance Corporal J. Badger; 18492 Private E. Barrett; 17486 Private H. Clarke; 17786 Private T. Hughes; 19259 Private T. Hughes; 7260 Private A. Mills; 17875 Private G. Pateman; 9824 Private B. Tebbutt; 7666 Private J. Tompkins; 3/8979 Private H. Willis;  -

 

John Badger, Ernest Barrett, and James TOMKINS are shown on FindMyPast with surviving service records. They also have something under 8979 H. Willis, but given the lack of indexing detail I suspect its another one of the entries on a memo \ casualty that was recovered from another man’s service record.

 

 

 

Given the date of first landing he would have been part of a replacement draft.

BNA have him in a Casualty List in the Northampton Mercury edition dated 5^th November 1915.

 

Cheers,
Peter

Thanks so much, Peter. So we're now looking later than 19 December for the photo. I'm finding yours and others' methods of investigation fascinating.

[TEW]

1 hour ago, Jane Hayward said:

John Price certainly looks to be a good match injury and age wise. Quite a good extraction of details from a torn piece of paper.

Genius, frankly.

I can't find any mention of John Haynes 19868 Notts & Derby on Ancestry at all, though. 

Try his other number, 47674 West York's. May be my error but he's James not John.

TEW

[PRC]

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

11 Walter V Drake, 2324, W Yorks

Walter Victor Drake first landed in France on the 16^th April 1915, subsequently renumbered 88133 and then remaining in the Army in 1920 he was given the new style Army Service Number 4525720. During the post war stage of his Army career he qualified for the General Service Medal with clasp for Kurdistan. It’s likely his service records were retained by the Ministry of Defence and only now are they making their way to the National Archive.

He appears in the Official Casualty List in the edition of The Times dated January 10^th 1916 as amongst the wounded of the 6^th Battalion (T.F), West Yorkshire Regiment.
6^th Battalion Other Ranks recorded as killed in the same list are:-
3313 Corporal R. Alston. [Robert.R. Alston, died 20/12/1915, Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial]
4156 Private T.C. Anderton. [Tobias Copley Anderson, died 20/12/1915, Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial]
3560 Private W. Barber. [Walter Barber, died 19/12/1915, Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial]
2944 Private P. Blackburn. [P. Blackburn, died 20/12/1915, Essex Farm Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium.]
2000 Private H.C. Bottomley.[Herbert Cecil Bottomley, died 19/12/1915, Essex Farm Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium.]
61 Sergeant E. Buckley. [E. Buckley, died 21/12/1915, Essex Farm Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium.]
2338 Private A.G. Cohen. [A.G. Cohen, died 19/12/1915, Essex Farm Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium.]
4286 Private H. Cook. [Harry Cook, died 20/12/1915, Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial]
3594 Private J. Easton. [J.H. Easton, died 19/12/1915, Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial]
2353 Private E.A. Gellert. [E.A. Gellert, died 19/12/1915, Essex Farm Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium.]
3136 Private F.C. Greenwood. [Fred Clarkson Greenwood, died 19/12/1915, Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial]
4310 Private H. Hall. [Harry Hall, died 20/12/1915, Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial]
2373 Lance Corporal A. Nightingale. [Andrew Nightingale, died 19/12/1915, Essex Farm Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium.]
1839 Private G. Rudolph. [George Rudolph, died 19/12/1915, Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial]
2592 Private J. Stanton. [James Stanton, died 19/12/1915, Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial]
2806 Private J. Sutcliffe. [J. Sutcliffe, died 20/12/1915, Essex Farm Cemetery, Boesinghe, Ypres, Belgium.]
3113 Lance-Corporal G. Warrener. [G.A. Warrener, died 19/12/1915, Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial]

I suspect it’s just a listing for Walter rather than an actual picture in the edition of the Bradford Weekly Telegraph dated 14^th January 1916

Image courtesy the British Newspaper Archive.

He also appears to be on a casualty list in the Sheffield Daily Telegraph (10^th January 1916 - BNA)

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

12 George Vickers (Lance Corporal), 1415, 34166 York & Lancs. A Scunthorpe man who enlisted in 1912, aged 19, Vickers entered France on 13 April 1915. He was killed in action on 9 April 1917

The 1/4^th and 1/5^th Battalions, both Territorial Force, moved to France in April 1915, landing at Le Havre on the 14^th. His later number would appear to indicate he wasn’t serving with a Territorial Force when the renumbering took place in the opening months of 1917.

Not obviously spotting him in a Casualty List.

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

13 David Ashton, Gs/6347, Queen’s Own Royal West Kent Regiment

Landed in France on the 11^th October 1915, most likely as part of a replacement draft. MiC references 8^th Battalion.

Not spotting an obvious Casualty List entry but there is a possible entry in the Police Gazette dated 31^st October 1916 of 6347 David Ashton under “Deserters and Absentees”. If it his him it will provide a very brief physical description and confirm unit he was then serving in.

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

14 Harry Wright (Pte), 9818, York & Lancaster Regiment. Wright was a Sheffield soldier who had joined the army aged 18 in 1910. He was discharged with wounds on 30 May 1917. His records show that he had worked as a cook in the army but was thinking of going back to his pre-war job, in the stamping trade.

First landed in France on the 15^th January 1915 according to his MiC.

By the sounds of things you are already aware of his surviving service records – presumably they are not clear on any hospitalisation at this point.

Looks like there is an entry in the Police Gazette in 1915 unders Deserters and Absentees according to the Military records on FindMyPast. Again should give brief physical description and confirm unit serving with at the time.

Not spotting an obvious Casualty List entry.

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

15 Ernest Busby, 13082, Duke of Cornwall’s Light Infantry. Enlisted 1 September 1918; entered France 21 May 1915; discharged 13 September 1916

Enlistment date needs correcting.

The 1/5^th and the 6^th Battalions DCLI landed in France on the 22^nd May 1915.

Not spotting an obvious Casualty List entry.

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

16 Arthur Clarke (Pte), 3456, 20th London Regiment (Blackheath and Woolwich Rifles). He arrived in France on 9 October 1915 and was sent back to England on 4/5 December of the same year. On 31 March 1916 he was discharged as no longer medically fit for service. 

Assume you are aware of surviving service record, (FMP born Great Britain c1893, dating from 1915, familysearch have them as unburnt records WO364 and resident East Dulwich, Surrey, and probably pension records on Ancestry) and also that FindMyPast have a Medical Admission Register entry from 1915 – hopefully some point along the medical evacuation in the right time frame to give you some idea what he was recovering from. But all records are in surname CLARK.

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

17 Thomas McDonald (Pte), 8724, 1st Battalion Notts & Derby (Sherwood Foresters). The spelling of his name is marked 'correct to Macdonald' in a note on his MRI. A regular soldier who had enlisted in 1902, Macdonald disembarked where??? on 4 November 1914. Discharged on 6 July 1917  with wounds that made him unfit for service.

 

Disembarked France.

From the Long, Long Trail.
1st Battalion

August 1914 : in Bombay, India. Returned to England, landing Plymouth 2 October 1914.
2 October 1914 : moved to Hursley Park and came under orders of 24th Brigade in 8th Division.
5 November 1914 : landed at Le Havre.
Note: brigade attached for purposes of giving instruction to 23rd Division, 18 October 1915 to 15 January 1916.
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/sherwood-foresters-nottinghamshire-derbyshire-regiment/

Appeared in the Official Casualty List that was published in the edition of The Times dated 8th February 1915 amongst the wounded of the Sherwood Foresters and with surname spelt MACDONALD.

In the same part of the Casualty List and recorded as Killed are the following Other Ranks of the Sherwood Foresters.

11262 Acting Sergeant F. Blake. [Frank Blake, 2^nd Battalion, died 1^st December 1914, Ploegsteert Memorial, Belgium]
11350 Private G. Butcher. [Henry Butcher, 1^st Battalion, died 26^th November 1914, Le Touret Memorial, France]
829 Private J. Dillon. [J. Dillon, 2^nd Battalion, died 29^th November 1914, recovered from the battlefield in summer 1919, originally as an unknown British Soldier. Identified from the serial number on his spoon. Now buried Loos British Cemetery, France.]
6083 Acting Corporal W. Smith. [Lance Corporal William Smith, 2^nd Battalion, died 28^th November 1914, Ploegsteert Memorial, Belgium]
11937 Private H. Sully. [Herbert Sully, 2nd Battalion, died 29^th November 1914, Ploegsteert Memorial, Belgium]
8749 Lance Corporal J. Walters. [Jarvis Walters, 1^st Battalion, died 22^nd November 1914, Le Touret Memorial, France]

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

18 George Albert Naylor (Pte), 2457, Yorkshire & Lancashire Regiment. A Sheffield man who was discharged on 11 December 1917. In 1920 he was awarded an 8s per week pension - plus 2s to support his wife -  for a 20 per cent disability

MiC as Albert Naylor and he was serving with the YORK & LANCASTER Regiment when he landed in France on the 13^th April 1915 – so may have been in the same Battalion as (12) George Vickers.

The Roll of Honour that appeared in the edition of the Newcastle Journal dated 14^th December 1915 includes Private A. Naylor, 2457, 4^th York and Lancs. I could find a couple of the names revealed in the preview of that newspaper on the British Newspaper Archive website in the Official Casualty List in The Times but one of them didn’t appear until the 20^th December. No trace of Naylor. May be worthwhile checking out the Newcastle title, if anyone has access to the British Newspaper Archive.

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

24 J Williamson, 1971, York & Lancaster Regiment.

There is a MiC for a Joseph Williamson who landed in France on the 16^th April 1915, but he was 1971 WEST YORKSHIRE Regiment before going on to be 209627 York and Lancaster Regiment. Because he was originally in a Territorial Force unit, when he was stood down from full time soldiering on the 23^rd February 1919 he was shown as “Disembodied”.

The back of the photograph shows Williamson as “1971 W. York”

Not readily spotting him in an Official Casualty List.

Cheers,
Peter

[Jane Hayward]

Thank you so much for all this research, Peter, I'm amazed at how far we've got in a fortnight. I will plug away today, I was wondering if there would be any desertions so very intrigued by that information. 

9 hours ago, TEW said:

Try his other number, 47674 West York's. May be my error but he's James not John.

TEW

Will do, thank you. I can see James there. 

[TEW]

19868 James Haynes, his medal card has been indexed with Ancestry as 69868.

TEW

[TEW]

Photo 2.

Another batch of 'unidentified so far'. Again I checked through Casualty Lists for 10 men and found:
Feb 1915 - 1
March 1915 - 2
June 1915 - 7.

There are some anomolies with the above but I'm just using it to check the probability of an unknown against a likely CL entry.

58 LINTON 8739 / LINTON 8970 K R R

I'm not sure where 8739 comes from. There is a CL entry for 8075 C Linton KRRC in Oct 1915 which may seem out of kilter but the Report Recieved date is April-May 1915 which re-aligns it.

I believe the 8075 to be incorrect and that Charles Linton KRRC is 8975, trasferred to Labour Corps as 448673.

There are pension ledgers/cards for him under 8975.

 

59 BOWER 9567 K R R - MIC Hubert BOWEN

I agree with the ID as Hubert Bowen KRRC 9567. CL date of June 1915

 

78 BERRY / BARRY 1909 London

Arthur Percival Barry 1909 1/9th London Regt. is on a CL dated June 1915. In France until 15/5/1915.

Later commisioned as Lt. on Censor Staff in Feb 1917.

Possible muddles with pension ledgers/cards. He may have been renumbered 390220 automatically just before his commision.

For reasons I can't explain there is a pension ledgers/card for a Arthur Barry with a Royal Fusiliers number of 1909 which may be him but it gives another regt. number of 105996 who is certainly not him.

 

88 RADFORD 7698 H L I. G Radford, 7498? Also Black Watch on Ancestry. On FindMyPast T Radford 7498?

I agree with 7498 George Radford HLI later 19441 Royal Highlanders /Black Watch.

He appears on two CL with dates of March 1915 and then again in June 1915. I think these are two different incidents the latter giving rise to his return to the UK

 

92 DAY 3156 Kents

I'd say the unit written is Herts. not Kents.

There is an Arthur Day of Herts. Regt. 3155 later 240089 Bedfords. MIC shows him to be in France from Feb 1915.

I'm not seeing a CL date for him but he could have been evacuated sick rather than wounded. There's a pension ledgers/card for him under 240089

There are some red-herrings for him. There's a Henry Day 3155 Notts. & Derby who did not go to France until Aug 1915.

TEW

[TEW]

Unpleasant entry in Soldiers' Effects.

5357 Joseph Fisher 2nd Border Regiment committed suicide at Desford Conv. Hosp. 26/3/1916.

TEW

[TEW]

I've had a bit of time to look at the WO364 pension file for 54 Murray, 7026 2nd Gordons .

There are 10 sheets and I'm sure they've not only muddled up two different men they've also annotated various sheets with mis-matched numbers. Then there seems to be a number cross over to pension ledgers/cards.

This MIC to Percy Murray is the one that relates to the man at Desford in my opinion.

Image courtesy of Ancestry

The Pension File has sheets to Patrick Murray from Ireland who joined the Gordon Highlanders in Glasgow with #3244 in 1890. He then transferred to the Irish Guards in 1897 and his first period terminated in 1902. His attestation form has been incorrectly annotated with Percy's 2nd number of 487529.

Then there's 6 B.103 sheets. for Percy Murray from Aberdeen under his 487529 Labour Corps number. This does show his Gordon Highlanders service period and a wounded in action event 9/5/15. He rejoined the GH depot in July 1915 and seemingly joined the Seaforths in Salonika and then Italy until April 1918 (no new number for Seaforths?). He then transferred to 3 different regiments in the space of a month before his posting to the LC in Sept 1918.

The B.103 forms are to the correct man but the other service related sheets are to Irish Patrick.

The pension ledgers/cards show the attached, the 3544 number is not correct for Percy!

TEW

Image courtesy of Ancestry

[PRC]

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

27 Robert Henry Connole (Sergt), 4495, York & Lanc. Later 77987, R Welsh Fusiliers. Disembarked in France on 9 September 1915.

MiC shows his York and Lancaster Service number as 4498.
No Battalions of the York and Lancaster Regiment are recorded as deploying overseas around this date, so most likely went out as part of a replacement draft.

FindMyPast have service records as Robert Connole indexed as born Cork, Ireland c1870 and commencing in 1914. FamilySearch have them as a burnt series record, (WO363) and records him as born Cork, resident Sheffield. There are both Service Records and Pension records for a “Robert Connole” on Ancestry but neither is indexed with the known unit details.

The man in the picture certainly looks like he could be in his forties.

Nothing obviously in the Casualty Lists.

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

28 Carson, 21420, HLI??? Possibly 21421 Sgt. George Carson, HLI. Embarked 5 Oct 1915, discharged 7 March 1916???

MiC records him landing with the 11^th Battalion, Highland Light Infantry.
The 11^th Battalion had been in France since the 12^th May 1915, so he was part of a replacement draft.

As he was discharged before September 1916, when the Silver War Badge was introduced, he would have had to apply for one. He does appear on the Silver War Badge Roll, but FindMyPast has dated the entry to 1920 and has him down as G. Carson.

Nothing obviously in the Casualty Lists.

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

29 Harry C Ball (Pte), 2728, 20th Londons.  Later No 630909. Entered France on 9 March 1915

Victory Medal and British War Medal Roll, (Image on Ancestry, (usually) low quality transcription on FindMyPast) for men of the London Regiment are normally quite detailed and hopefully will show the periods he was not on the strength of an overseas unit.

Medal Roll has him as Harry Charles Ball.

Nothing obviously in the Casualty Lists.

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

30 Stephen Mongan (Pte), 8348, Prince of Wales’ Own West Yorkshire Regiment. Mongan, born in 1894 and from Hebburn in Yorkshire, enlisted on 24 September 1914. He went right through the war with one recorded gunshot wound in his left side and was demobbed on 10 January 1919

The indexing on FindMyPast for his service record shows him born Hebburn, Durham c1884 and enlisted 1902. However that may relate to earlier service – unless he enlisted after the 6^th August 1902 or lost time through disciplinary issues, then a standard short service 12 year enlistment would have been up when the reserve was mobilised on the 5^th August 1914. And his MiC shows his service number as 3/8348. That makes him a Special Reservist and that only came into existance in August 1908.

Familysearch has them as burnt series records, under 8348 service number (WO363).
But can’t readily spot them on Ancestry.

But the only likely birth in the civil records was registered in the South Shields District of County Durham in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1894. And the 1911 Census of England & Wales has a 17 year old Stephen Mongan, a Shipyard Platers Marker, born Hebburn, Durham, who was recorded living with his aunt and uncle at 28 Thistle Street, Hebburn.

So perhaps the indexing on FindMyPast and familysearch is wrong.

MiC has him landing in France to serve with the 1^st Battalion on the 24^th September 1914. The 1^st Battalion had landed in France on the 10^th September so likely he was in the very first party of replacements.

Nothing obviously in the Casualty Lists.

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

32 Harry Faulkner (corp), 16472, Worcestershire Regiment. Faulkner, from Selly Oak in Birmingham, enlisted on 10 September 1914, six weeks after the war began, and entered France on 19 July 1915. He was discharged aged 24, on 4 December 1917, having suffered a bomb wound to his right elbow.

 

MiC shows him serving with the 10^th Battalion, and Long, Long Trail has the 10^th Battalion landing in France about that time.

Nothing obviously in the Casualty Lists.

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

33 Robert Angus Ross (Pte), S/11370, Cameron Highlanders. Twenty three-year-old Ross, from Lairg in Sunderland, travelled to Inverness to enlist on 2 September 1914. In a letter from Ross to his commanding officer dated 22 July 1916, he says "Previously I was out in France with the 5th Battalion where I got wounded at Loos 25 Sept." Ross had been released on 29 March 1916 for munitions work in Glasgow, but now said, "As I am quite fit again I would like very much if I was called back again to the Regt." A request for Ross' release to his employers The Mirrlees Watson Company duly followed but was refused. A letter in 1918 from Ross talks about varicose veins and back problems, and asks to be discharged, I think. I cannot decipher most of the info contained. Will read again.

CWGC lists 255 fatalities of the 5^th Battalion on the 25^th September 1915. Of the Other Ranks a sample check shows them recorded as either Missing or Wounded and Missing in the Official Casualty List that appeared in The Times dated 20^th November 1915. But there are no Cameron Highlanders recorded as wounded in that List.

A bit more searching turns Ross up in the Official Casualty List in The Times dated 18^th October 1915, among the wounded of the 5^th Battalion. But given how small the list is – he is one of 14 – seems at odd with the volumes of deaths of the Battalion on the 25^th. Most sources I’ve seen talk of the Battalion being wiped out although that may have been over the following days as their Brigade tried to hold on to the Hohenzollern Redoubt taken on the first day. See this first hand account https://ourwar1915.wordpress.com/2017/09/24/a-scottish-soldier-at-loos-3-s17912-private-james-laidlaw-5th-service-battalion-the-queens-own-cameron-highlanders/

I’m sure you are already aware of his surviving service records as Robert Ross, (FMP), burnt series (WO363), born Lairg, Sutherland, resident London, (familysearch) and service record (Ancestry).

Cheers,
Peter

 

 

 

[Jane Hayward]

I'm catching up with you both slowly...

[Jane Hayward]

On 04/03/2024 at 14:06, TEW said:

Unpleasant entry in Soldiers' Effects.

5357 Joseph Fisher 2nd Border Regiment committed suicide at Desford Conv. Hosp. 26/3/1916.

TEW

Awful. There's some grim detail from the inquest in the Leicester Evening Mail Thursday 30 March 1916. It says he was (unnecessarily) worried about going back to The Front. The matron and Major Kelly give evidence, as does a Pte C Marks - not on any of the photos I don't think. 

[Jane Hayward]

 

On 04/03/2024 at 00:04, PRC said:

Not spotting an obvious Casualty List entry but there is a possible entry in the Police Gazette dated 31^st October 1916 of 6347 David Ashton under “Deserters and Absentees”. If it his him it will provide a very brief physical description and confirm unit he was then serving in.

 

 

 

 

Yes, No13 David Ashton was on the deserter's list, went missing from barracks earlier in October. The description was that he's 5ft 21/2in tall and enlisted in Accrington. Blimey. I suppose that's it for him, we'll not see what happened to him after that. I've added his details on page 9.

 

 

Edited 6 March by Jane Hayward

[Jane Hayward]

PRC, Yes, you've caught Harry Wright. He is another absentee. I couldn't read this part of his service records but am learning that the smudged, indecipherable bits may be the most interesting parts. I have no idea what this says at all, if anybody has better eyes than me.

Edited 6 March by Jane Hayward

[Jane Hayward]

PRC, Thank you for Clark. With that spelling I found is records easily. Tons of detail on his medical records about movements around France after being injured perhaps naming more different hospitals, sounds like an ordeal. I've added these details to my list.

16 Arthur Clark (Pte), 3456, 20th London Regiment (Blackheath and Woolwich Rifles). Born in 1893. Clark was a house keeper from East Dulwich in South London who enlisted (into the Territorial Force?) on 13 April 1915. His experience of war was short. Arriving in France on 9 October 1915, he hit trouble within nine days. His medical record shows that he suffered concussion on 18 October, and the next day went by motor ambulance convoy to Saint-Omer Hospital where he was treated for "DAH (shock)". On 23 November he was at the 23rd General Hospital in Etaples, still suffering from DAH and returned to England on 4 December. He is transferred on 31 January 1916, which perhaps marks the end of his hospital treatment. On 31 March 1916 he was discharged as no longer medically fit for service. He was awarded 20 shillings a week on discharge (the amount give for 50 per cent disability to a private). Note: his record marks him as 3/20 Battalion and there is a reference to 4 years engagement?

Edited 6 March by Jane Hayward
Found out a bit more re Saint-Omer

[PRC]

4 hours ago, Jane Hayward said:

Blimey. I suppose that's it for him, we'll not see what happened to him after that.

As a deserter his service medals should have been forfeit regardless of subsequent service and his MiC noted accordingly. However this was a mainly civilian army with many going through things that no training or life experience could have prepared them for. After the initial award, (automatic for other ranks so no application process) and with their MiC shown as entitlement to medals cancelled, the government of the day had a change of heart.  Medals were reinstated for those who had voluntarily returned and continued to serve to the best of their ability, and also I believe those who, frustrated at the red tape surrounding discharges, jumped the gun while at demob camps in the UK and went home early after the armistice.

But this cancelling, (usually with a medal roll entry struck through on the MiC) and then a re-instatement, (noted on the MiC with a new medal roll number and referencing an Army Order in my experience) do not occur on the MiC for David Ashton. Perhaps the records office that dealt with the West Kents followed a different practice. Or perhaps the relevant information is on the related service medal rolls.

The back of the MiC on Ancestry has one of their standard template blanks, so nothing helpful there.

Image courtesy of a free account on Ancestry!

Perhaps rather like the Royal Naval Division man an exonerating reason was found for his absence. Unless there was overwhelming evidence that a man had no intention to return he was normally treated I believe as Abent without Leave \ Over-staying his leave, for the first fortnight, after which he was deemed a deserter (from day 1) and notices published in the Police Gazette. So in David's case there was either evidence of no intent to return or it reached the 14 day trigger -  the latter can be seen in the case of the RND man.

BTW - the entry in the Police Gazette also shows where a man deserted from, as in last seen at.

These can often tie in with a location of a home service battalion of the Regiment \ Corps, so always worth a check of the Long, Long Trail.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 6 March by PRC
Typos

[Jane Hayward]

So interesting, PRC. I think I thought they were deal with much more harshly, ie shot. Too many TV dramas I suspect. 

I have noticed on the few service records I've seen that men are getting frustrated towards the war's end, things like coming back to barracks late and Quearney failing to salute an officer. 

However this was a mainly civilian army with many going through things that no training or life experience could have prepared them for. 

The Cameron Highlanders experience you linked to was horrendous. 

[PRC]

40 minutes ago, Jane Hayward said:

He is transferred on 31 January 1916, which perhaps marks the end of his hospital treatment. On 31 March 1916 he was discharged as no longer medically fit for service. He was awarded 20 shillings a week on discharge (the amount give for 50 per cent disability to a private). Note: his record marks him as 3/20 Battalion and there is a reference to 4 years engagement?

A standard enlistment for a Territorial Force man was 4 years. All battalions of the London Regiment were Territorial Force.

Generally speaking, once the medical establishment had finishing treated him and medically supervised his convalsecense, he would be discharged with a period of leave and told to report to the Regimental Depot.  From there a soldier would then be posted to a home service battalion to carry out refresher training, (mainly physical), and ongoing assessment of their ability for further service. On arrival a man might be fit for home service only but the aim would be to get him fit enough for frontline service, or at least overseas service. But of course there would be individuals whose health would keep breaking down, and this was seen more of a liability than an asset. In the spring of 1916 the Army was still discharging such men - as the war went on the situation became more nuanced, with Command Depots fufilling a stepping stone from convalescence to full time training, and the creation of the Labour Corps for those not fit for fighting service but still able to carry out the work required to keep an Army in the field. The onus switched over to keeping a man once the Army had him in uniform. For eample I know of a least a couple of Norfolk Regiment men discharged in 1915 \ early 1915 after losing the top joints of fingers on their dominant hand - including their trigger finger. But by 1917/18 they would have been retained to work with pick and shovel in the Labour Corps.

Our parent site, the Long, Long Trail shows:-

3/20th Battalion
Formed in March 1915 and moved to Richmond Park. Went in January 1916 to Hazeley Down near Winchester.
8 April 1916 : became 20th Reserve Bn. Moved to Chiseldon in November 1917.
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/london-regiment/

Cheers,
Peter

[Jane Hayward]

10 minutes ago, PRC said:

A standard enlistment for a Territorial Force man was 4 years. All battalions of the London Regiment were Territorial Force.

Generally speaking, once the medical establishment had finishing treated him and medically supervised his convalsecense, he would be discharged with a period of leave and told to report to the Regimental Depot.  From there a soldier would then be posted to a home service battalion to carry out refresher training, (mainly physical), and ongoing assessment of their ability for further service. On arrival a man might be fit for home service only but the aim would be to get him fit enough for frontline service, or at least overseas service. But of course there would be individuals whose health would keep breaking down, and this was seen more of a liability than an asset. In the spring of 1916 the Army was still discharging such men - as the war went on the situation became more nuanced, with Command Depots fufilling a stepping stone from convalescence to full time training, and the creation of the Labour Corps for those not fit for fighting service but still able to carry out the work required to keep an Army in the field. The onus switched over to keeping a man once the Army had him in uniform. For eample I know of a least a couple of Norfolk Regiment men discharged in 1915 \ early 1915 after losing the top joints of fingers on their dominant hand - including their trigger finger. But by 1917/18 they would have been retained to work with pick and shovel in the Labour Corps.

Our parent site, the Long, Long Trail shows:-

3/20th Battalion
Formed in March 1915 and moved to Richmond Park. Went in January 1916 to Hazeley Down near Winchester.
8 April 1916 : became 20th Reserve Bn. Moved to Chiseldon in November 1917.
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/london-regiment/

Cheers,
Peter

You've explained something I was curious about with No50 Quearney. They seemed to hang onto him despite pain from abdomen injury that meant he couldn't bend over, tonsil problems, defective teeth etc. He seemed on his knees. It was no wonder he wasn't keen to salute that officer in Blackpool.

[Jane Hayward]

Sorry for all the questions. I'm looking at Bob's info about Reginald Frank Owen. On Owen's service record it says he was with the expeditionary force in France from 15 August 1914 until he returned to England with a severe gunshot wound on 19 May 1915. But he got married in Chertsey on 20 January 1915.

Were troops able to return from France for leave and their movements between the two countries would not be recorded on their service records? It seems obvious the answer must be yes but I hadn't take it into account.

[Bob Davies]

6 hours ago, Jane Hayward said:

 

PRC, Yes, you've caught Harry Wright. He is another absentee. I couldn't read this part of his service records but am learning that the smudged, indecipherable bits may be the most interesting parts. I have no idea what this says at all, if anybody has better eyes than me.

As best as I can see Jane is;

service towards limited engagement recons from 16-8-1910

Joined at Blackdown on 17-8-1910

York + Lancaster  2nd Attested Private 16-8-1910

Regiment              1st Posted   Private    14-3-191(3) ?

                             1st Forfeits pay 

                              Absent   _ _ _ _ _?

                              _ _ _ ? Absence 

                 _ _ _ _ _ ?           15-14 1 15           Private    8. 1. 1915.

           Depot     G Ottley Lt Col

Edited 6 March by Bob Davies
to add a ?

[Jane Hayward]

1 hour ago, Bob Davies said:

As best as I can see Jane is;

service towards limited engagement recons from 16-8-1910

Joined at Blackdown on 17-8-1910

York + Lancaster  2nd Attested Private 16-8-1910

Regiment              1st Posted   Private    14-3-191(3) ?

                             1st Forfeits pay 

                              Absent   _ _ _ _ _?

                              _ _ _ ? Absence 

                 _ _ _ _ _ ?           15-14 1 15           Private    8. 1. 1915.

           Depot     G Ottley Lt Col

Ah, thank you very much, Bob. So maybe just detailing the absent without leaves that were mentioned elsewhere.

I found this in my grandma's album today from the same era. Not sure if it's the Desford dog or an identikit she got when she first married.

[Bob Davies]

28 minutes ago, Jane Hayward said:

Ah, thank you very much, Bob. So maybe just detailing the absent without leaves that were mentioned elsewhere.

I found this in my grandma's album today from the same era. Not sure if it's the Desford dog or an identikit she got when she first married.

I think so Jane, I cannot see anything other than Absent/Absence on there.

We need a side by side to compare the Deefer 'Desford Dogs'. He may be buried in one of the Majors residences, with his name on a marker?

Wishful thinking on my behalf.

I am out of luck searching for the Leicester soldiers, for now at any rate.

Perhaps experienced others will have more luck. If anyone needs searches doing for them or others in the pictures here please ask.

Regards, Bob.