Wounded solders at Desford

[Bob Davies]

23 minutes ago, PRC said:

I have been wondering if that is Virginia Creeper rather than Ivy, as that dies back in winter, but in a number of the picture the leaves can be more clearly seen and I'm 99.9% sure it's Ivy.

I am 100% sure it is Ivy Peter.

 

24 minutes ago, PRC said:

Is Deefer in summer or winter coats in pictures 1 and 3.

Deefer Desford Dog looks to me to be a Labrador or a Lab cross Springer Spaniel. 

Labradors have a double coat all year round and they moult all year round, I know this because I am chief sweeper/hoover man/dog brusher in our house 

At these times of year Deefer Desford Dog will have his winter coat on.

He will also have a third coat at times of enjoyment and opportunity,

that is a coat of Mud, easily lost onto anything the owner wants to keep clean.

However we see Deefer Desford Dog in pristine condition in these pictures, eyes, ears and nose all on full alert, picture 3 shows him about to go into shake like a loony

and wag his tail like a mad one, as he is with his mates!

However he is a respectful type of dog, ergo he is holding it back until the picture is taken and then play will resume 

 

[Jane Hayward]

On 04/03/2024 at 17:46, PRC said:

MiC shows his York and Lancaster Service number as 4498.
No Battalions of the York and Lancaster Regiment are recorded as deploying overseas around this date, so most likely went out as part of a replacement draft.

 

FindMyPast have service records as Robert Connole indexed as born Cork, Ireland c1870 and commencing in 1914. FamilySearch have them as a burnt series record, (WO363) and records him as born Cork, resident Sheffield. There are both Service Records and Pension records for a “Robert Connole” on Ancestry but neither is indexed with the known unit details.

 

The man in the picture certainly looks like he could be in his forties.

 

Nothing obviously in the Casualty Lists.

 

 

 

PRC, Console, 14 in 1183, living in Sheffield in 1914. It's your man. Disappointing lack of injury detail in his records.

27 Robert Henry Connole (Sergt), 4498, 10th York & Lancaster Regiment (also Durham Light Infantry and the Labour Corps - possibly using the numbers 15925 and 35295 - and 77987, Royal Welsh Fusiliers). An army pensioner, Connole had previously served in the York & Lancs for 20 years having signed up at 14 in 1883. On 26 September 1914, he was called to attest to the York & Lancs 3rd (Reserve) Battalion in Sheffield and promoted to sergeant. His service records show that he was 44 years old and 5ft 81/2in tall with grey hair.  Connole disembarked in France with the 10th Battalion on 9 September 1915, returning home on 27 December 1915 and was posted to depot two days later. His condition is not detailed. He was reposted on 8 April 1916 to the Durham Light Infantry, and didn't return abroad, but his army career continued until 1930.

Edited 9 March by Jane Hayward

[Jane Hayward]

I think this might be the oldest soldier in the group

44 John Shaw Gardner (Pte), 10148 North Staffordshire Regiment and 43132 South Staffordshire Regiment. Gardner was an old soldier who was asked to return to the forces - in 1886 had taken part in the Anglo-Egyptian campaign while serving with the Duke of Cornwall’s Light Infantry (1036).  He signed up with the South Staffordshire Regiment in Birmingham on 7 September 1914. Although his attestation form says he was 44, his marriage record says he was born in 1865, so perhaps he was really 49. Gardner disembarked in France on 24 August 1915. On 2 December 1915, he suffered a gunshot wound in the abdomen and was returned to England. After recovery (he was reposted on 9 March 1916), he went back to France twice more and was finally demobilised to Class Z on 23 February 1919.

Edited 10 March by Jane Hayward

[PRC]

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

35 George Walter Ferry (Gunner), 21094, Royal Field Artillery. Ferry, from Millfield, Sunderland, disembarked in France on 13 July 1915. He was killed in action 7 September 1917, aged 21.

Received the Military Medal while serving in France while serving with A/75^th Brigade, R.F.A. (A Battery, 75^th Brigade). The award appear in the London Gazette dated 18^th October 1917.

Image courtesy The National Archive.

FindMyPast have a 1915 Medical Admission Register entry for a Artilleryman with the service number 21094 but in the name “G. Feery”.

I’m not readily spotting him in the Casualty Lists for 1915, but then I couldn’t see him for his death either.

CWGC records him as 21 when he died, serving with “A” Battery, 75^th Brigade, Royal Field Artillery, with the additional information that he was the son of Emily Mary Ferry, of 19, Wilson St., Millfield, Sunderland, Co. Durham. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/435675/george-walter-ferry/

George could easily be aged 18/19 in the picture taken at Desford Hall.

Soldiers Died in the Great War records him as Killed in Action, born and enlisted Sunderland.

Forum member @David Porter may be able to give you a better idea of the circumstances in which his RFA service number was issued.

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

36 James Webster (Pte), 6815, Black Watch. A married man from Falkirk, Webster was born in 1886. He disembarked in France on 23 August 1915 and was discharged 13 September 1917 with disabilities described as a gunshot wound to his right buttock with damage to the sacrum and rectum.

MiC records his service number as S/6815.

As Paul Nixons’ website tells us “When Britain went to war in August 1914, men joining the new service battalions were issued with numbers from the same series that had, up until that point, been the sole preserve of the regiment’s two regular battalions. The only difference between men enlisting for war-time service only and those enlisting as career soldiers, was that the former’s numbers were supposed to be prefixed with the letter S/.”
https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2011/08/black-watch-royal-highlanders-1st-2nd.html

James appears amongst the list of the wounded of the 9^th Battalion, Black Watch in the Official Casualty List printed in the edition of The Times dated October 29^th 1915. He is one of 21 names listed from the Battalion. There are no man of the Battalion shown as having been killed in action to give any guide as to when the wounding might have occurred.

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

37 Andrew D Colville (L/Corp), 18173, Cameron Highlanders. Multiple gunshot wounds causing disability judged at 30 per cent were recorded on Colville's pension card in 1919. An Edinburgh man, he had disembarked in France on 1 October 1915 and was demobilised to the Reserves 7 February 1919

MiC shows S/18173 Andrew D. Colville first landed in France with the 5^th Battalion, Cameron Highlanders. He was discharged to the Class Z Army Reserve.

Lance Corporal A. Colville, (no middle initial), appears amongst the wounded of the 5^th Battalion in the Official Casualty List that was printed in the edition of The Times dated December  31^st 1915. In the same part of the list, (and as a guide only), the following individuals of the 5^th Battalion were recorded as killed.

18635 Private T. Cullen. CWGC records him as died 7^th December 1915 and buried Railway Dugouts Burial Ground (Transport Farm), Zillebeke, Belgium.
9977 Lance Sergeant J. Kerr. CWGC records him as died 8^th December 1915 and buried Railway Dugouts Burial Ground (Transport Farm), Zillebeke, Belgium.
18770 Private P. Parkins. CWGC records him as died 8th December 1915 and originally buried in the Ypres Reservor (North) Cemetery, Zillebeke, before being exhumed and reburied in Maple Copse British Cemetery in September 1921.

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

38 Albert Edward Ryder (Corp), 6161 1st Middlesex Regiment. (Also 592757 and 6351 3/18th London Regiment.) Ryder entered France on 17 September 1914 with the Middlesex Regiment and came home on 5 October 1915. He went back to France a second time in 1916 and a third time in 1917.

His MiC shows Private L/6161 Albert E. Ryder first landed in France on the 22^nd September 1914, serving with the 1^st Battalion, Middlesex Regiment.

The 1^st Battalion originally landed in France on the 11^th August 1914, so he was part of a replacement draft.

The L prefix will denote a pre-war regular. The Regular Army Battalions of the Middlesex Regiment would have issued service number 6161 in eatly 1900 – Paul Nixons’ website indicates that 6165 was issued on the 23^rd March 1900. (The L was frequently dropped, so absence doesn’t mean a man wasn’t a pre-war regular)  https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/07/middlesex-regiment-1st-2nd-3rd-4th.html

With a short service enlistment being 12 years, Albert was either in for a long haul 21 years or more likely having completed his 12 years he took advantage of the one off opportunity for enlisted men with a reasonably good record to extend their service in the reserves by four years and continue to receive half pay and access to medical care. That would also provide a plausible explanation for why he didn’t go out when his Battalion deployed. If his 12 year enlistment in cMarch 1900 was split into the common 7 years in the colours and 5 in the reserves by August 1914 it would have been nearly seven and a half years since he was routinely in uniform when war was declared.

FMP has a 1915 Medical Admissions Register entry for him.

He appears amongst a long list of the wounded of the 1^st Battalion that appeared in the edition of The Times dated October 20^th 1915.

In the same part of the list, (and as a guide only), the following individuals of the 1^st Battalion were recorded as killed.
12888 Lance Corporal A. Allen. CWGC records him as died 25^th September 1915 and buried Cambrin Churchyard Extension, France.
10803 Private H. Beckenham. CWGC records him as died 25^th September 1915 and buried Cambrin Churchyard Extension, France.
10270 Private G. Browne. CWGC records him as George W. BROWN, died 25^th September 1915 and buried Cambrin Churchyard Extension, France.
9502 Private T. Budd. CWGC records him as died 25^th September 1915 and buried Cambrin Churchyard Extension, France.
147 Private J. Carter. CWGC records him as died 25^th September 1915 and buried Cambrin Churchyard Extension, France.
3394 Private J. Crawford. CWGC records him as died 25^th September 1915 and buried Cambrin Churchyard Extension, France.
546 Private W. Davis. CWGC records him as died 25^th September 1915 and buried Cambrin Churchyard Extension, France.
838 Private E. Elmer. CWGC records him as died 25^th September 1915 and buried Cambrin Churchyard Extension, France.
10190 Private F. Futter. CWGC records him as died 25^th September 1915 and buried Cambrin Churchyard Extension, France.
12530 Lance Corporal H. Moore. CWGC records him as died 25^th September 1915 and buried Cambrin Churchyard Extension, France.
11473 Lance Corporal G. Smith. CWGC records him as died 25^th September 1915 and buried Cambrin Churchyard Extension, France.
12328 Private W. Wilson. CWGC records him as died 25^th September 1915 and buried Cambrin Churchyard Extension, France.

There used to be a very detailed and well researched website on the 1^st Battalion but it has long since gone and so difficult to give it full credit deserved  http://freespace.virgin.net/howard.anderson/loos.htm. The information it had for the activities of the 1^st Battalion on the 25^th September 1915 was:-

When dawn broke on the morning of 25th it seemed as if the elements had again conspired to make the attack abortive, for heavy rain fell and the wind, what there was of it, shifted almost continually; it was a bad day for the projection of gas. Indeed, one Brigade of the 2nd Division (6th) notified Divisional Headquarters that the wind was unfavourable, but was ordered to proceed with the projection. So, at 5.50 a.m., the cylinders were opened and great clouds of asphyxiating gas were projected into the air, whilst the smoke candles were lighted. But instead of the gas floating across No Man's Land and settling down over the German trenches, it hung lifeless in the air or blew back upon the British trenches from which it had been projected, in many places with disastrous effects.

The left Battalion (the Highlanders) of the 19th Brigade fared worse than the right-the Middlesex-for the ground in front of the former was much cut up by craters, and in these the gas hung about with exasperating stillness.

Across No Man's Land the Germans could be seen donning gas masks and using sprays-in order to dispel the gas-whilst all along their parapets, at intervals of about 20-30 yards, they lighted fires for the same purpose, and by their activities they appeared quite unaffected by the noxious fumes. For forty minutes the gas projection lasted and then, at 6.30 a.m., the signal was given for the assault.

"A", "B" and "C" Companies of the 1st Middlesex, awaiting the order to go forward, at once began their advance; "D" Company was in reserve. But the men had not gone more than a few yards ere a storm of rifle and machine-gun bullets tore their ranks to shreds and No Man's Land was soon littered with killed and wounded. Undeterred by the gas fumes the Germans stood up in their trenches, in many places upon the parapets, and poured a deadly accurate fire upon the advancing British troops. For not alone from in front of the gallant Die-Hards did fierce resistance take place, but all up and down the line. Unable to make further progress, the Middlesex men laid down. By this time the German trenches, which when the advance began had been lightly held, were packed with men and the volume of fire increased. With orders to reinforce the three forward companies, "D" Company now "went over the top," only to share a similar fate, and survivors lay close to the ground with a rain of bullets pouring overhead. The Battalion Diary records the action in the following and all too brief words: "At 5.50 a.m. a gas attack was opened on the German trenches for 40 minutes. This was not, however, very successful, and did not have much effect. At 6.30 the Battalion attacked with three Companies in the front line and one Company ("D") in reserve. The Battalion was all flung into the line, but failed to get further forward than 100 yards and were then hung up. Gunners again shelled the hostile line, but no further advance was made. At 12 noon the Battalion was ordered to withdraw into Brigade Reserve, having lost very heavily in both officers and men. A large proportion of N.C.Os. were casualties."

The 19th Brigade Diary throws but little further light on the action, though the position of the Brigade at 7.30 a.m. is given thus: "1st Middlesex about 100 yards in front of our front-line trenches; 2nd A. and S. Highlanders being under cover of the German parapet by the wire " (a terrible position). Then a little later the narrative states: "2nd A. and S. Highlanders withdrawn to their original trenches, leaving many men behind, including two complete platoons who reached the German front trenches. 1st Middlesex, trying to get on, are a hundred yards in front. Artillery shell the German front line very heavily. A bombardment under 2nd Divisional orders was arranged to start at 9a.m., after which infantry were to advance. 2nd Royal Welch Fusiliers now put out two companies to support the Middlesex, but they were met with fierce opposition and lose heavily. Bombers of 1st Middlesex reach the craters at "D," but are heavily fired on by our own artillery."

At 9.45a.m. orders were received at Brigade Headquarters stating that as the attack on the right of the 2nd Division was progressing favourably, no further attack was to be made for the present by the 19th Brigade and the 6th Brigade ( the latter was on the left of the former).

Amongst the appendices to the Diary of the 19th Infantry Brigade, however, are several field messages of special interest to the Middlesex Regiment, and although there are gaps in the story it is possible to follow the course of the Battle from a battalion point of view.

The first message, timed 6.57 a.m., is from Brigade Headquarters to Battalion Headquarters Middlesex and reads: "Any news aaa How far have you advanced aaa Is gas returning you aaa Keep me well informed so that artillery barrage may be altered to suit if you want it." In reply to this message there follow several, one after the other, from the O.C. Middlesex, and they are given in their correct order, though the first was evidently despatched while the Brigade message was on its way to Battalion Headquarters: (i) "6.50 a.m. Much opposition to our front. Please ask guns to shell Les Briques trench." (ii) "7 a.m. Reserve company has got on, but we are being very heavily fired at." (iii) "7.16 a.m. Line held up. Very heavy fire aaa Have " (here the message is overwritten and is unreadable. (iv) "7.20 a.m. Ask guns to shell German front-line trench aaa Railway trench I mean." (v) "7.26 a.m. Don't think gas is affecting us or Germans. They are holding their front-line trench aaa Our Battalion is all out in area between their front trench and ours aaa 2nd Royal Welch Fusiliers are now up aaa It is essential to now shell hostile front trench." (vi) "7.30 a.m. Reported casualties probably 400, but impossible to tell aaa Have observed an enormous number fall." ( vii) "7.55 a.m. Must shell German first line aaa Our men are all out in front aaa Almost all must be killed or wounded aaa Please shell first line aaa Welch Fusiliers are now advancing." And, at 8 a.m. the Commanding Officer asks for men for the attack on his left: "Is there any news re Argylls and Sutherlands ?"

It is apparent from the last message that no news had reached the Commanding Officer of the Middlesex from his own front line of the situation on his left flank. About 8 a.m., however, Colonel Rowley received the following message from Lieut. A. D. Hill ( commanding "C" Company): "Enemy very strong in front with machine-guns and rifles. "C" Company strength only about 30 or 35 men. Impossible to advance on account of machine guns. Mr. Henry and 3 men alone remain out of two platoons. Can we have reinforcements ? We are in Square 27B in crater S.E. of road and about 60 yards south Point 79." To which, at 8.12 a.m., Colonel Rowley replied: "Hang on where you are until reinforced." The next message is written on a small muddy and blood-stained piece of paper: "8.30 a.m. "B" Company attack held up 100 yards out of own trench. Major Swainson wounded. "B" Company knocked out, few men stand fast." It is signed "P. Choate, 2nd Lieutenant."

The only other information received by Colonel Rowley from No Man's Land was a second message from Lieut. Choate, timed 10.50 a.m.: "So far as can ascertain "B" Company nearly wiped out. A few men are lying near me 100 yards in front of our front trench to left of wrecked aeroplane and facing Les Briques Farm. I have not enough men to advance further. Can you reinforce or give orders ?" There is no reply in the Diaries to this message.

The one bright spot in the attack was an assault from the left flank carried out by the Grenade Reserve platoon, assisted by a platoon of the Reserve Company ("D"). These gallant fellows attacked a large crater (at D) and actually captured it.

There is little more to tell ! At 1.15 p.m. the Battalion- all that was left of it-was ordered into reserve at Siding No. 3 and Braddell Trench. When this movement had been carried out, but a handful of men-84 other ranks-were mustered, though when darkness had fallen over the battlefield on the night of 25th other men, who had been lying out all day in No 2 Man's Land, were able to withdraw. The little party of "D" Company who had hung on to the crater they had captured were also withdrawn. During the day they had actually pushed beyond the crater, but were held up by very thick hostile wire entanglements, and the grenade officer was killed whilst trying to force a way through. A machine gun had also been pushed forward into the crater and did great execution, but the machinegun officer being wounded, the gun had to be withdrawn. Throughout the morning the Battalion stretcher-bearers performed many gallant deeds and worked heroically

Ten officers killed (Captains N. Y. L. Welman, F. V. A. Dyer, L. G. Coward and R. J. Deighton; 2nd Lieuts. C. A. J. Mackinnon, C. Pery, B. U. Hare, A. L. Hill, R. C. Mellish, J. H. Linsell; Lieut. A. W. R. Carless died of wounds on 27th September.) and 7 wounded; 73 other ranks killed, 285 wounded, 66 missing, 7 gassed and 2 suffering from shell concussion-a total of 455-were the casualties suffered by the 1st Middlesex throughout the day. Well indeed might the Brigadier-General (P. R. Robertson) commanding 28th Brigade write in a letter to Colonel Rowley, dated 26th September: "Please convey to all ranks my very high appreciation of the splendid behaviour of all ranks in yesterday's action. They did all that it was possible to do under such circumstances; their conduct was most gallant and fully upheld the fine reputation of the Die-Hards."

Cheers,
Peter

[David Porter]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

FindMyPast have a 1915 Medical Admission Register entry for a Artilleryman with the service number 21094 but in the name “G. Feery”.

Admitted to 51st Field Ambulance on October 21, 1915 with Influenza and serving with 79th Brigade RFA, 17th Division. It is obviously G. Ferry on inspection.
His arrival in France date of July 13, 1915 also could indicate 79th Brigade RFA.
His number was issued on arrival at No. 1 Depot RFA, Newcastle-on-Tyne on September 3, 1914.

There is no direct connection with 75th Brigade RFA, Guards Division, with whom he died and was awarded the MM. It was just a subsequent posting.

More on him here.

 

Edited 10 March by David Porter

[Jane Hayward]

FindMyPast have a 1915 Medical Admission Register entry for a Artilleryman with the service number 21094 but in the name “G. Feery”.

I’m not readily spotting him in the Casualty Lists for 1915, but then I couldn’t see him for his death either.

CWGC records him as 21 when he died, serving with “A” Battery, 75^th Brigade, Royal Field Artillery, with the additional information that he was the son of Emily Mary Ferry, of 19, Wilson St., Millfield, Sunderland, Co. Durham. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/435675/george-walter-ferry/

George could easily be aged 18/19 in the picture taken at Desford Hall.

 

Definitely, he's so young in that photo. I found his mother's 1911 census entry and he seemed to be the eldest or one of the eldest children in a big family. Fascinating info - I hope his medal's owner reads it & see the pic. So he was admitted to the field hospital and discharged the same day with influenza but he's in Desford 2-21/2 months later. 

Edited 10 March by Jane Hayward

[Jane Hayward]

MiC records his service number as S/6815.

As Paul Nixons’ website tells us “When Britain went to war in August 1914, men joining the new service battalions were issued with numbers from the same series that had, up until that point, been the sole preserve of the regiment’s two regular battalions. The only difference between men enlisting for war-time service only and those enlisting as career soldiers, was that the former’s numbers were supposed to be prefixed with the letter S/.”
 

Thank you for this and the Coalville adds and corrections, Peter! I've read the description of the 25th several times but will need to do so again to take it in properly. 

Edited 10 March by Jane Hayward

[PRC]

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

40 James Noon (Pte), 16651, 9th Cameronians (Scottish Rifles). Noon appeared on a casualty list in October 1915 and was discharged 26 August 1916.

MiC shows first landed in France on the 12^th May 1915 with the 9^th Battalion, Scottish Rifles.
The Long, Long Trail records the Battalion landed at Boulogne on that day. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/cameronians-scottish-rifles/

James appears amongst the wounded of the 9^th Battalion in the Official Casualty List that was printed in the edition of The Times dated October 20^th, 1915. There are no members of the Battalion recorded as killed in the same list.

A quick look at the first 15 individuals named as the other wounded of the Battalion shows that:-
6981 J. Bell has service records showing on FindMyPast as James Bell – I suspect they are pension records on Ancestry. May potentially give you an approx wounding date

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

42 John Price (Pte), 3042, Black Watch. Born in Dundee in 1894, Price disembarked in France on 3 April 1915. The 21-year-old is seen with a heavily bandaged face at Desford and his pension record states that he suffered a severe gunshot wound to the face causing 90 per cent disability. He was discharged on 4 December 1916

I can’t see the detail but from the snapshots on the British Newspaper Archive:-
19^th October 1915 edition Dundee Courier 3042 Private J. Price – admitted St. Omer.
22^nd October 1915 edition Dundee Courier 3042 Private J. Price – to England, ex Lahore, shot wound, face.
23^rd October 1915 edition Dundee Courier 4^th Black Watch 3042 Private J. Price – admitted Leicester, wounded (severe).

3042 Private J. Price appeared in the Official Casualty List printed in the edition of The Times dated October 16^th 1915.He was among 131 men of the 4^th Battalion, Black Watch, (T.F.), recorded as wounded.

Recorded as “Killed” from the same Battalion and as a guide to when he might have been wounded are:-
2562 Lance Corporal D.H. Chapman.  CWGC as David H. Chapman, died 25/09/1915. Commemorated Loos Memorial.
3404 Private J. Doig. CWGC as James Doig, died 25/09/1915. Commemorated Loos Memorial.
2579 Lance Sergeant W. McGee. CWGC as William McGee, died 25/09/1915. Commemorated Loos Memorial.
923 Private J. Smith. CWGC as died 25/09/1915. Buried Rue-Di-Bacquerot No.1 Military Cemetery, Laventie, France.
3749 Private G. Stewart. CWGC as George Alexander Stewart, “D” Company, died 25/09/1915, Commemorated Loos Memorial.
171 Company Sergeant Major W.A. Thomson. CWGC shows William Adamson Thorton died 25/09/1915. Commemorated Loos Memorial.

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

46 Ernest George Miller (Corp), 7152 and 449888, R Berks but records says LC, Essex Militia. From Chingford. Marked as dead on his pension record though this could be much later.

MiC shows Ernest G. Miller first landing in France on the 17^th November 1915 as Private 17845 Essex Regiment. He was subsequently 449888 Private Labour Corps. Ernest was discharged to the Class Z Reserve on the 27^th February 1919.

FindMyPast has a Medical Admission Register entry dating to 1916 for a 17845 E.G. Miller, Essex Regiment.

Not readily spotting anything in the Official Casualty Lists.

But looking at the original image that looks like “Miller 7132 R. Berks” to me.

Which then puts 7132 Private Alfred A. MILLAR, Royal Berkshshire Regiment in the frame. He was subsequently 206425 Royal Army Medical Corps. MiC shows landed France on the 12^th September 1914 with the 1^st Battalion, Royal Berkshire Regiment. Service ends wih him being discharged. The 1^st Battalion landed in France on the 13^th August, so he was part of a replacement draft, and possibly even a mobilised reservist.

Medal Roll indexed as Alfred Andrew MILLAR on FindMyPast, which also has a 1915 Medical Admissions Register entry for him under that service number and regiment. No obvious service records under either service number.

Private 7132 A. MillEr 1^st Royal Berkshire Regiment turns up in casualty lists that appear in the regional press in January 1915 and then again in December 1915. If it is him present in the picture then the paperwork that accompanied him to Desford may well have reflected the “E” spelling.

His appearance amongst the wounded of the 1^st Battalion that appears in the Official Casualty List that was printed in the edition of The Times dated December 9, 1915, used the MILLER spelling. The same List does not have any 1^st Battalion men recorded as killed.

Others wounded are:-
7083 Lance Corporal A. Cotton.
16318 Private E. Ford.
11863 Private W. Moorcroft.
9742 Private J. Winkworth.FMP are showing surviving service records.

Battalion War Diary.

For much of November 1915 the 1^st Battalion was out of the front line, although often providing working parties. They did go into the front line on the 14^th November 1915 and were relieved on the 17^th.  The only casualties mentioned were in the War Diary entry for the 15^th.

Work. Cleaning up was continued steadily as before in addition in KAISERIN trench and SAVILE ROW. Between 4 pm and 5.45 pm our area was heavily shelled with field guns, medium howitzers and minenwerfers, the latter firing from the direction of the CORON. Battn (also Battns on right and left) stood to arms from 5 to 5.45 pm. Companies also reinforced their front line taking men from support trenches where most shells were falling. Our artillery replied and bombardment ceased at time stated. No hostile movement followed. Enemy sent up green flare just before bombardment ceased. Bombardment caused considerable damage to second line and communications trenches. During night a small party of 3 to 4 Germans approached No 3 Bombing Post HOGS BACK, but were immediately driven back by our bombers, one being killed and another wounded. Enemy worked on 2nd and 3rd line opposite HOGS BACK during the night. Casualties 5 slightly wounded.
https://www.thewardrobe.org.uk/research/war-diaries/detail?id=453&regiment=1&month=11&year=1915

The numbers wounded in that diary entry and the numbers wounded in the official casualty list could just be co-incidence. Hopefully the service record for Winkworth will confirm one way or t’other.

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

49 Sydney Arthur Bailey (Pte), 13461, Suffolk Regiment. Bailey enlisted on 7 September 1914 and arrived in France on 31 August 1915. He was discharged on 1 August 1916 having suffered a fractured right femur

Appears in the Official Casualty List that was printed in the edition of The Times dated December 6^th, 1915, as amongst the wounded of the 9^th Battalion, Suffolk Regiment. The same part of the list has no men of the 9^th Battalion recorded as Killed.

Other 9^th Battalion men listed as wounded:-
13455 Lance Corporal W. Bayles.
13447 Private F.C. Capon.
3/10131 Private S. Collins.
17946 Private M.W. Mayes.
But I couldn’t readily spot surviving service \ pension records for any of them under the Suffolk details.

The Battalion war diary doesn’t give much of a clue. After the first week of November out of the line the Battalion was taking attritional wounded casualties on a regular basis whether holding the line or on working parties.

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

50 George McIvor (Pte), 20621,King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry????; later 651177, Labour Corps. Disembarked in France on 14 October 1915.

There is a MiC for a 20621 Private George McIvor but it shows him serving with the Kings Own Scottish Borderers when he landed in France on the 14^th October 1915. He was subsequently 651177 Labour Corps.

No obvious appearance in the Official Casualty List.

No obvious surviving service record or pension record.

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

51 Harold Tunnicliffe (Pte), 23012, 1st and 9th Notts & Derby Regiment. Born 1892, Tunnicliffe entered the war at Gallipoli with the 9th Battalion on 28 August 1915. At some point he suffered a gunshot wound in the right thigh, and was discharged on 28 March 1919

No obvious appearance in the Official Casualty List.

Looks like FindMyPast has a one pager under H. Tunnicliffe.

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

52 Christopher Quearney, 9065, Royal Dublin Fusiliers, later 2076 RAMC. ........He was discharged on 26 March 1819 as no longer fit for war service.

Discharge date needs checking

Cheers,
Peter

[Jane Hayward]

9 hours ago, PRC said:

MiC shows first landed in France on the 12^th May 1915 with the 9^th Battalion, Scottish Rifles.
The Long, Long Trail records the Battalion landed at Boulogne on that day. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/cameronians-scottish-rifles/

 

James appears amongst the wounded of the 9^th Battalion in the Official Casualty List that was printed in the edition of The Times dated October 20^th, 1915. There are no members of the Battalion recorded as killed in the same list.

 

A quick look at the first 15 individuals named as the other wounded of the Battalion shows that:-
6981 J. Bell has service records showing on FindMyPast as James Bell – I suspect they are pension records on Ancestry. May potentially give you an approx wounding date

 

I am starting to enjoy settling down with a cup of coffee and a soldier's service record, Peter :). James Bell was shot on the 3rd October and treated at Lillers then Rouen then home.

[Jane Hayward]

I can’t see the detail but from the snapshots on the British Newspaper Archive:-
19^th October 1915 edition Dundee Courier 3042 Private J. Price – admitted St. Omer.
22^nd October 1915 edition Dundee Courier 3042 Private J. Price – to England, ex Lahore, shot wound, face.
23^rd October 1915 edition Dundee Courier 4^th Black Watch 3042 Private J. Price – admitted Leicester, wounded (severe).

Brilliant, thank you. The newspaper content is just the same as the snapshots. I'm so chuffed you've uncovered the whole story on Price's injury when initially there was just the scrap of info - "3042 tch" that TEW unravelled. And "Lahore".

Edited 16 March by Jane Hayward

[Jane Hayward]

Medal Roll indexed as Alfred Andrew MILLAR on FindMyPast, which also has a 1915 Medical Admissions Register entry for him under that service number and regiment. No obvious service records under either service number.

 

4/12 months in the field,  suffering from rheumatic fever. 15/10/15  to duty

[PRC]

2 hours ago, Jane Hayward said:

22^nd October 1915 edition Dundee Courier 3042 Private J. Price – to England, ex Lahore, shot wound, face.

To the best of my knowledge there wasn't a full-blown Hospital ship called the Lahore, but she could have been a Hospital Transport or even just a Hired Transport.

There was a SS City of Lahore that was launched in 1911 to carry passengers and cargo. However the National Maritime Museum ran a project to digitise the crew agreements for British flagged vessels for the year of 1915. The last one they've digitised for the City of Lahore saw the ship dock at Birkenhead on the 1st December 1915 after at least one round trip to Bombay. The crew agreement started on the 12th August 1915. https://1915crewlists.rmg.co.uk/document/205053#&gid=1&pid=1

It may be that their journey took them via northern France but given the dangers involved and the destination port it seems unlikely. So probably another ship called Lahore.

Cheers,
Peter

[TEW]

Is it not Lahore British Hospital?

Moved from Marseilles in April 1915 to Calais and re-named 35th GH in 1916.

I noted a Rawalpindi reference for one of the men which turned out to be another base hospital.

TEW

[PRC]

2 hours ago, TEW said:

Is it not Lahore British Hospital?

Thank you @TEW, -distinct possibility

I don't think I've ever come across it by that name before. Every day a learning day here on the forum!

Cheers,
Peter

[Jane Hayward]

On 23/02/2024 at 10:37, stiletto_33853 said:

Re. TEW's last post,

I can help with the RB men

B/366, Smith, William 11th & 13th RB Died of wounds 14/3/16

Z/1911, Barnes, Walter Herbert, 3rd, 10th, 2nd, 10th & 2nd RB, Class Z 1/4/19

B/2308, Lake, Frederick Hubert, 8th RB, WIA Gsw Calf 31/7/15, invalided to UK 15/8/15, to 5th RB 21/11/15, Commissioned 3rd Att'd 13th Royal Sussex Regiment 4/8/16, WIA 31/7/17

S/7884, Terry, Arthur Francis 8th, 3rd RB, KIA 21/8/16

B/3436, Lovatt, Thomas, 7th & 1st RB WIA 27/7/15, invalided UK 15/8/15, Depot 1/10/15, BEF again 31/12/15 KIA 1/7/16

3865, Scott, Charles James, 4th RB going overseas with them, WIA Gsw Neck 9/5/15, 2nd Garrison Northants Battalion 1/10/16, 13th Royal Defence Corps 10/8/17, Disc KR392 Xvi 26/11/17, awarded Silver War Badge 279314

Hope it helps a little

I don't know how I missed your post until now, but thanks very much for the  help & information. I don't know what happened to Barnes though, he seems to have died of something different while his Class Z was going through.

[Jane Hayward]

On 23/02/2024 at 12:54, TEW said:

I'll tentatively put up the following ID. It does rely on the regiment given to be incorrect, other possibilities may exist.

Could be Edward John Pennington 16135, 2nd South Lancashires. He was from St Helens (near Liverpool). Date of Entry 26/5/15. Appendicitis in the field 24/8/1915 and evacuated to England 5/9/15. Returned to service and was KIA Oct 1916.

He has a service file, nothing that gives any UK hospitals though.

TEW

TEW, I found this picture of Pennington which I think confirms your genius detective work. 106 Pennington sounds so heartbreakingly chaotic that it makes perfect sense that he gave the wrong answer to an enquiry about his details. 

 

Edited 17 March by Jane Hayward

[PRC]

On 28/02/2024 at 19:11, Jane Hayward said:

?

Monsieur 98/175? I've got a thank-you postcard from a Belgian soldier dated October 1915. Clement Conti, I think.

 

 

 

Apologies,

I've been meaning to put a side by side comparison together on this one. Looks like a very strong case for the Belgium soldier being the man in civilian garb in pictures 2 and 3. Is there a date on the postcard to throw into the mix of when those Desford Hall pictures must have been taken by?

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owner.

Cheers,
Peter

[Jane Hayward]

Yes, 2 October 1915. and it thanks her for her holiday postcard and says he's still feeling really well, so there's some sort of gap after leaving. 

Edited 17 March by Jane Hayward

[Jane Hayward]

On 29/02/2024 at 10:22, Jane Hayward said:

26 George William Hubbard (Pte), 4360, 5th Leicester Regiment. Hubbard, a 21-year-old who worked in a Market Harborough corset factory, enlisted on 26 May 1915. His medical report stated that he was 5ft 10 1/2in tall with a 32in chest, and "poor" development "but will improve". However, that proved not to be the case. His discharge report reveals that he had suffered pneumonia and pleurisy as a teenager, and been left with lung damage. While with the Leicesters he had nine attacks of pleurisy possibly exhibiting TB, and only managed to do a single week's drill. He was described as unable to undertake any physical exertion, and discharged as physically unfit after 241 days service. Hubbard returned to Market Harborough and lived until the age of 75.

Does anyone have an opinion on Hubbard, who had the different regiment number to the photo? I think it's mostly a good fit. He is slouching and looks unfit (polo neck jumper for bad throat and chest?), and has the black hair and brown eyes noted at enlistment. It's just his height - he needs to be 5ft 10 1/2. Flack, on his right, is 5ft 51.2in. No 12 is 5ft 11 though much broader chest. 'Hubbard' does have a long body, i think, disguised by the slouch. Nine attacks of pleurisy surely makes it likely that he'd have been sent to a convalescent home to gain strength. 

Edited 20 March by Jane Hayward

[TEW]

I've looked through medal cards for Hubbards of the Leicesters who have a number that might have got muddled into 4436 and don't see anything better than 4360.

There are men in these photos that have not entered a theatre of war yet. That's always going to be an issue as that significantly reduces the available records to match 'the man in the photo' to a soldier.

I see that nothing has come to light regarding 4 Wilbourne 1473 Notts & Derby. I'd suspect that either there's more than one bit of information there that's wrong or that it's correct at the time but he never served abroad or did so with a different number and regiment.

TEW

[Jane Hayward]

Thanks for the second opinion. It must be him I think, he holds himself so badly compared to the other soldiers. I read an article about the 1916 annual report for the society that funded Desford and it said that one of the Leicester hospitals had been taking in men who had failed their medicals to build them up for war, so I suppose it's not so surprising they invested a year in Hubbard.

[Jane Hayward]

7 hours ago, TEW said:

 

I see that nothing has come to light regarding 4 Wilbourne 1473 Notts & Derby. I'd suspect that either there's more than one bit of information there that's wrong or that it's correct at the time but he never served abroad or did so with a different number and regiment.

TEW

No, but I did strike gold with 48 Johnstone after playing around with his name on National Archives searches (although it turned out I'd made it more difficult by thinking he was London Regiment). So satisfying when a Leicester hospital pops up in the results.

48 John James Johnson (Sgt), 367, 3rd County of London Yeomanry (Sharpshooters). (Also 265020 1/3 City of London Yeomanry and a 2nd Lieut in the Norfolk Regiment.) A shrapnel wound to the eye causing traumatic iritis brought Johnson, aged 28, to Leicester's 5th Northern General Hospital on 28 October 1915, according to a document in the National Archives. A railway clerk from Watford before the war, had disembarked in Egypt on 14 April 1915, where the 3rd London Yeomanry had fought at Gallipoli. After recovery, he was discharged on sick furlough on 16 March 1916. He was commissioned to the Norfolk Regiment in 1918.

Edited 20 March by Jane Hayward

[PRC]

Earlier in the thread an article from the edition of the Illustrated Leicester Chronicle dated Saturday, 28th August 1915 was posted. 14 wounded men from Desford were stated to have gone on a trip to Enderby Hall on “Saturday”.

Like many a journalistic report the contents of the article is likely to be a mix of truth, journalistic licence and sub-editor mangling - in my opinion!

·       The reference to Saturday and the article in the past tense, combined with the unlikelihood that the Chronicle was a Saturday evening paper makes it unlikely the trip took place on that day – more likely the preceding Saturday, (21^st) or even possibly the one before that, (14^th).

There are other stop and pause comments – the group who went on the trip comprised 14 of the 17 wounded men then at Desford, the other three being too unwell to travel.

As we’ve seen earlier Desford started the war with a capacity for 60, and pictures 1, 2, and 3 as well as some of the pre-war images and one potentially of the Belgiums shows those in residence to number in that sort of number so:-

·       Had there been a clear-out leaving only 17 wounded as the residents?

·       Or were the rest resident at Desford sick?

·       Or was this in a changeover period with a mix of Belgiums and British \ British Empire troops – the 17 referring to the number of Brits in residence.

I’ve previously put forward that pictures 5 and the 8 were taken practically at the same time, with just enough subtle changes between the two to make it clear these are two individual images.

Others have suggested these pictures relate to the trip to Enderby Hall. I beg to differ as there are 15 soldiers present, so unless one dropped out, this possibly relates to a different trip.

But worth exploring further as three potential matches have been found for three men present in pictures 5 and 8 in amongst group shot pictures 2 and 3 – Empringham, Dalby and Lear.

Picture 2 is currently believed to date to June/July 1915 and picture 3 to September 1915 – which would tie up with an August 1915 trip. But they would also make the statement that there were only 17 wounded at Desford look rather unlikely.

And turning back to the article, while it states 14 men went on the trip and gives ranks, names and battle where wounded, the actual list only gives 13 individuals.

Looking at those 13.

Sergeant Everett, 1^st Leicesters, wounded at Rue de Bois. (95 and 123).

Sergt. H. Empringham, 1^st Hants Regt. wounded at Ypres. (131 and believed to be 153 in pictures 5 and 8).

Corpl. Reid, K.O.S.B. wounded at Ypres. (Not named on pictures 1-3).

Private Dalby, 10^th Hussars wounded at Ypres. (81 and believed to be 162 in pictures 5 and 8)

Private Burton, Leicestershire Yeomanry wounded at Ypres. (Not named on pictures 1-3. Possible - 2200 Richard Burton, Leicestershire Yeomanry, landed France 2^nd November 1914 on a MiC that only shows his 1914 Star but in the remarks section is noted that he was transferred to an Agricultural Company of the Leicestershire Regiment 22.2.17. FindMyPast are showing service records. Familysearch have them as Burnt series (WO363) and gives a Labour Corps number of 238157. Ancestry have them as service records).

Private Kerley, 1^st Wilts Regt. wounded at Ypres. (Not named on pictures 1-3. Possibles from MiC’s boils down to 10679 Albert C. Kerley, landed France 7^th April 1915, honourably discharged and received the Silver War Badge. There are other Kerley’s who spent all or part of their military career in the Great War with the Wiltshire Regiment but either they didn’t go out early enough or were likely to be serving with a different regiment initially. No obvious service records. Private 10679 A.C. Kerley appears amongst the list of the wounded of the 1^st Battalion that appeared in the Official Casualty List printed in the edition of The Times dated July 24, 1915).

Private Ridgeway, K.O.Y.L.I. wounded at Ypres. (Not named on pictures 1-3. Possibles from MiC record are 9527 John William Ridgeway first landed France 15^th January 1915; and 566 Thomas Henry Ridgeway, first landed France 14^th April ,1915, subsequently Labour Corps 593581. No obvious service records. 9527 Lance Corporal J.W Ridgeway appears in a list published in the edition of the Leeds Mercury dated 23rd June 1915 (BNA) but I’m struggling to find him in the official casualty list).

Private O. Walker, 4^th Royal Warwick Regt. wounded at Ypres. (Not named on pictures 1-3. ).

Private Lear, 1^st Cheshire Regt. wounded at Ypres. (146, and believed to be 164 in pictures 5 and 8).

Sapper F.O. Lowrey, R.E. wounded at Ypres. (Not named on pictures 1-3. Could be a co-incidence but the British Newspaper Archive shows articles mentioning a Sapper F.C. Lowery, R.E. Surrey Advertiser 27^th November 1915 and 17^th December 1915 when he is stated to be in hospital at Weybridge ).

Private Sheldon, 1^st/6^th West Riding Regt. wounded at Flembeux. (Not named on pictures 1-3. Possible from MiC record is 1645 J. Sheldon, landed France 14.4.15, subsequently Military Foot Police P 8596;There are other Sheldon’s who would serve with the West Riding Regiment but doesn’t look any of them arrived early enough in a Theatre of War to be a candidate. No obvious service records, but FMP are showing a couple of Medical Admission Register entries, one dated 1915 and the other 1915-16. The Official Casualty List that appeared in the edition of The Times dated June 19, 1915 includes 1645 Private J. Sheldon amongst the wounded of the 6^th Battalion, (TF) ).

Private Dale, 23^rd London Regt. wounded at Givenchy. (60)

Private Hammond, Oxford and Bucks Light Infantry, wounded at Richebourg. (Not named on pictures 1-3).

______ 

So if those men were at Desford in August 1915 and yet don’t appear on either picture 2 or 3, does this give some idea of how transient the patient populaion of Desford was? There was already a near complete turnover between picture 2 and picture 3 and on the face of it we have a trip to Enderby Hall that occurs between the two but introduce us to 10 additional residents not seen in the bigger group shots.

And we have pictures 5 & 8 which shows us 1 man still present from picture 2, (June/July 1915) and 2 of the men seen on picture 3, (September 1915) - and 12 other residents so far not identified.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 21 March by PRC
Correct picture references

[TEW]

Private Burton, Leicestershire Yeomanry wounded at Ypres.

His Ancestry file is under number 37660 which refers to 2200 & 238157

He was hospitalised in France with DAH then returned to the UK in April 1915.

His 'Medical Report on an Invalid' is dated 15/11/1915 and mentions this hospital which is the 5th NGH, Leicester. No mention of Desford.

Bit of journalistic license with his condition?

TEW

 

 

[Jane Hayward]

Some more dates and numbers for you, Peter.

Looking at the British Newspaper Archive, the content of the Leicester Chronicle article about Enderby Hall appeared first in a Leicester Daily Post article dated Monday 23 August 1915.

On Friday 20 August, there are three different reports of soldiers going on a trip to Leamington "on Thursday." No numbers are mentioned but they fit into six cars lent by the Earl Shilton and Barwell Motor Association.

An article in Leicester Daily Post Monday 9 August describes an outing that took place "on Friday" for 50 men - from both Desford and Leicester Royal Infirmary combined.

An article in the Hinckley Times dated 14 August, says "A treat to wounded soldiers was given on Friday last by the workpeople employed at the firm of Messrs AV Hpcroft and Co of the Empire Works, Earl Shilton....Certain of the women looked after the tea and catered for around 100 persons. "It was a disappointment to hear from the matron at Desford the same morning that only from 12  to 16 soldiers would be available." (The Royal Infirmary solved the problem by "offering as many wounded as could be conveyed." A motor char-a-banc picked up 31 soldiers from Leicester then went back for the Desford soldiers. "Here there were 17 soldiers making a total of 48.