Wounded solders at Desford

[Jane Hayward]

Bob, this is a photo the history society sent me of pre-war Desford. Maybe this is Lucie Maud Havers? 

[Bob Davies]

21 hours ago, Jane Hayward said:

Bob, this is a photo the history society sent me of pre-war Desford. Maybe this is Lucie Maud Havers? 

Thank you Jane,

I would not be surprised if that is her. There are 40 plus patients in the picture too.

Now, after more digging I am sure I have found a Leicesters Soldiers in amongst your pictures from the first page.

Well his MIC at least.

Pte 16715 Roger Toon. Edit; He is 1st Battalion Leicestershire Regiment.

Went to France 4-5-1915.

 

 

I have 3 candidates for Burrows Sgt Leicesters but I need to look into them further.

For others they are;

22162 Ruben Burrows

13142 William Burrows has SWB

20251 Alfred Burrows

All the above Leicesters.

A side note is that my Grandad, Pte Jack Griffin 1/5th Leicesters, worked at the Desford aerodrome during WW2.

He got on the train from Hugglescote or Coalville station to Desford station, then walked up the hill to work.

My Mum, as a child could not understand why her Mum and Dad went to bed before 10 pm each evening.

'Got to be up early, a few long walks to do before and after the train journey'

Regards, Bob.

 

Edited 21 February by Bob Davies
to add a note.

[BarbaraG]

On 17/02/2024 at 16:20, Jane Hayward said:

Not sure if anyone has looked at these names but had some success with MIC on Ancestry. Have saved those I've found for other details (additional reg. numbers/ SWB etc)

HAMES 19868 Notts & Derby - MIC William HASSELL (?)

MURRAY 7026 2nd Gordens

PATTINSON 3037 - MIC Ernest Leslie PATTISON - SWB Enlisted 8/9/1914 Discharge 10/3./1916 Wounds 

MAIN 3488 Gordons - MIC William Christie MAIN - SWB Enlisted 15/2/15 Discharge 25/3/19 Wounds (290855 Gordons / 528008 14th Lond. R.)

COOPER 2839 London - MIC Westley R COOPER (147870 M.G.C.)

LINTON 8739 / LINTON 8970 K R R

BOWER 9567 K R R - MIC Hubert BOWEN

DALE 2209 London - MIC George A DALE - SWB (700395) Enlisted 20/8/1914 Discharge 14/6/19 Wounds

CLEARY ??? *9190**

HURD 9190 E Yorks

McKAIL 1165 H L I - MIC HUGH C McKAIL

WRIGHT 7525 Devons -MIC Ernest Gordon WRIGHT

BURROWS 5352 Leicesters

COHEN 10458 D P - MIC Morris COHEN

OWEN 3065 Lancers??

 

HAMMERSLEY 2264 London - MIC - Henry HAMMERSLEY

SCOTT 3865 K R B - MIC Charles J SCOTT

DICKENS 6004 K R R - MIC William T DICKENS

POCOCK 8291 K R R - MIC - Harry POCOCK

BURNALL 11039 K Liverpool - MIC - Richard Burnell

BERRY / BARRY 1909 London

POLAND 8616 K Liverpool - MIC George W POLAND - SWB

WARREN 9110 Suffolks - MIC Percy WARREN (K-In-A 13/16.9.16)

DALBY 2422 R Hussars - MIC Charles H DALBY - SWB

SHERWOOD 16471 Canada

TILBURY 54589 R E - MIC / LGS - J TILBURY 54809

 

ROSS 9750 Camerons - MIC John ROSS

BROWN 2251 Yorks - MIC Willey BROWN - SWB

GOODBRAND 1344 H L I - MIC Charles GOODBRAND

McNEIL 1360 H D

RADFORD 7698 H L I

WAITE 935 Seaforths -MIC Thomas WATE - SWB

WESTACOTT 42418 Canada - MIC Herbert WESTACOTT Canada Personnel Records

BUDD 9350 Sussex - MIC Frank A BUDD M M

DAY 3156 Kents

BEEVERS 2841 N Staff - MIC - Thomas BEEVERS (Pres. Dead 1.7.16)

EVERETT 8142 - MIC Robert EVERITT

HILL 2595 London - MIC William H Hill

Edited 21 February by BarbaraG
Updated Canadian Entries

[Jane Hayward]

Barbara, I  was ploughing the same furrow last night. Dalby's discharge in April 1916 is the earliest date I found so this picture perhaps slightly predates that.

3rd row

Henry James Hammersley, 172340, 2264, Labour Corps, London Regiment, Roy Fus, Devon Rgt

Albert Scott, 3865, Yorkshire and Lancashire Regiment (killed 7 July 1916)

William T Dickens, 6004, King’s Royal Rifle Corps

Harry Pocock, 8291, King’s Royal Rifle Corps (killed in 1917)

Richard Burnell, 11039 and 591280, The King’s Regiment (Liverpool) and Labour Corps

Barry, 1909, London???

George William Poland, 8616, King’s Regiment (Liverpool)

John Percy Warren, 9110, 9th Suffolk Regiment (died in September 1916)

Chas H Dalby, 2422, Hussars (discharged April 1916)

 

 

[Jane Hayward]

Thanks, Bob. I feel a visit to Desford coming on.

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Jane Hayward said:

Barbara, I  was ploughing the same furrow last night. Dalby's discharge in April 1916 is the earliest date I found so this picture perhaps slightly predates that.

3rd row

Henry James Hammersley, 172340, 2264, Labour Corps, London Regiment, Roy Fus, Devon Rgt

Albert Scott, 3865, Yorkshire and Lancashire Regiment (killed 7 July 1916)

William T Dickens, 6004, King’s Royal Rifle Corps

Harry Pocock, 8291, King’s Royal Rifle Corps (killed in 1917)

Richard Burnell, 11039 and 591280, The King’s Regiment (Liverpool) and Labour Corps

Barry, 1909, London???

George William Poland, 8616, King’s Regiment (Liverpool)

John Percy Warren, 9110, 9th Suffolk Regiment (died in September 1916)

Chas H Dalby, 2422, Hussars (discharged April 1916)

 

 

Good job Jane.  Albert Scott was York and Lancaster Regiment, the only infantry unit that was aligned with both counties via two cities.  Often abbreviated York & Lancs, it frequently confuses the unfamiliar.

Edited 21 February by FROGSMILE

[Jane Hayward]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

Good job Jane.  Albert Scott was York and Lancaster Regiment, the only infantry unit that was aligned with both counties.  Often abbreviated York & Lancs, it frequently confuses the unfamiliar.

I am only just start to get to grips with them! Planning a visit to the Army Museum when it stops raining.

[Jane Hayward]

GOODBRAND 1344 H L I - MIC Charles GOODBRAND

Delighted to see this. I was down a very long Goodhand rabbit hole.

[BarbaraG]

9 minutes ago, Jane Hayward said:

Barbara, I  was ploughing the same furrow last night. Dalby's discharge in April 1916 is the earliest date I found so this picture perhaps slightly predates that.

3rd row

Henry James Hammersley, 172340, 2264, Labour Corps, London Regiment, Roy Fus, Devon Rgt

Albert Scott, 3865, Yorkshire and Lancashire Regiment (killed 7 July 1916)

William T Dickens, 6004, King’s Royal Rifle Corps

Harry Pocock, 8291, King’s Royal Rifle Corps (killed in 1917)

Richard Burnell, 11039 and 591280, The King’s Regiment (Liverpool) and Labour Corps

Barry, 1909, London???

George William Poland, 8616, King’s Regiment (Liverpool)

John Percy Warren, 9110, 9th Suffolk Regiment (died in September 1916)

Chas H Dalby, 2422, Hussars (discharged April 1916)

 

 

Good morning - on the photograph Canadian Records exist for two of the men..

SHERWOOD 16471 Canada -Samuel Harold SHERWOOD -Canada Personnel Records show Samuel 5.6.15receiving treatment at the 5th Northern General Hospital Leicester.

WESTACOTT 42418 Canada - Herbert WESTACOTT - Canada Personnel Records show Herbert 28.5.1915 was wounded and at the 5th Northern General Hospital Leicester.

[Jane Hayward]

V interesting re Canada, Barbara.

I am wondering if it's possible to identify the senior-looking military man in my last photo of the staff. He seems to be in all three group shots? Would he be supervising the whole process?

[BarbaraG]

52 minutes ago, Jane Hayward said:

Barbara, I  was ploughing the same furrow last night. Dalby's discharge in April 1916 is the earliest date I found so this picture perhaps slightly predates that.

3rd row

Henry James Hammersley, 172340, 2264, Labour Corps, London Regiment, Roy Fus, Devon Rgt

Albert Scott, 3865, Yorkshire and Lancashire Regiment (killed 7 July 1916)

Re. SCOTT 3865 KRB Wouldn't this possibly be Rifle Brigade? 

[Jane Hayward]

Barbara, Yes, you're quite right.

[Bob Davies]

2 hours ago, Jane Hayward said:

I am wondering if it's possible to identify the senior-looking military man in my last photo of the staff. He seems to be in all three group shots? Would he be supervising the whole process?

He is a Major, as indicated by the rank insignia on his cuffs, which is a single crown.

He also wears collar badges which look to me to be RAMC. @FROGSMILE or @CorporalPunishment may assist us further.

Edit; He also wears three medal ribbons.

I would think that he is in charge of the Home.

One more edit here; I am wondering that if our mystery Major is in the RAMC, then he might be connected to the 5th North General Hospital Leicester,

in some way? Is he there visiting, as I don't think he would be needed there all the time, therefore he is on his rounds as it were checking various outlying

convalescent homes.

Leicester is not that far from Desford, 10 miles give or take.

How to find him for me is an unknown at the moment. Regards, Bob.

There are threads about army ranks on the forum, the best place to look is probably

Uniforms,Cap Badges and Insignia.

such as this thread.

 

 

Edited 21 February by Bob Davies
to add some and then some more.

[CorporalPunishment]

1 hour ago, Bob Davies said:

He is a Major, as indicated by the rank insignia on his cuffs, which is a single crown.

He also wears collar badges which look to me to be RAMC. @FROGSMILE or @CorporalPunishment may assist us further.

Edit; He also wears three medal ribbons.

I would think that he is in charge of the Home.

One more edit here; I am wondering that if our mystery Major is in the RAMC, then he might be connected to the 5th North General Hospital Leicester,

in some way? Is he there visiting, as I don't think he would be needed there all the time, therefore he is on his rounds as it were checking various outlying

convalescent homes.

Leicester is not that far from Desford, 10 miles give or take.

How to find him for me is an unknown at the moment. Regards, Bob.

There are threads about army ranks on the forum, the best place to look is probably

Uniforms,Cap Badges and Insignia.

such as this thread.

He is definitely a Major in the RAMC. His last medal ribbon is for the QSAM and the centre one looks to be for the MC. The first medal ribbon is unclear but could be for the DSO maybe.       Pete.

 

 

[TEW]

The National Archives have a series of Medical Sheets in series MH106, these are not available online. There are 21 records for wounded soldiers at Desford Hall. I may not have kept up with all the names and transcriptions as much as others here but I don't think there's any cross over so far.

What is apparent is that all 21 originated from 5th Northern GH or North Evington. The bulk of these men were at Desford in the 4th Qtr of 1915, then a smaller spread 1917-1918. None in 1916 for some reason.

They were all Transferred to Desford Hall prior to discharge or furlough which makes me think that 16471 Sherwood in BarbaraG's example may have been discharged from Desford 7/8/15.

I would wonder if an RAMC Major would be in charge of a convalescent VAD hospital. Could he not be from 5th Northern GH or Northern Command abnd perhaps have a number of VAD hospitals under his wing?

I suspect someone's noted this already but the VAD Redcross site has four records for Desford.

TEW

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, TEW said:

The National Archives have a series of Medical Sheets in series MH106, these are not available online. There are 21 records for wounded soldiers at Desford Hall. I may not have kept up with all the names and transcriptions as much as others here but I don't think there's any cross over so far.

What is apparent is that all 21 originated from 5th Northern GH or North Evington. The bulk of these men were at Desford in the 4th Qtr of 1915, then a smaller spread 1917-1918. None in 1916 for some reason.

They were all Transferred to Desford Hall prior to discharge or furlough which makes me think that 16471 Sherwood in BarbaraG's example may have been discharged from Desford 7/8/15.

I would wonder if an RAMC Major would be in charge of a convalescent VAD hospital. Could he not be from 5th Northern GH or Northern Command abnd perhaps have a number of VAD hospitals under his wing?

I suspect someone's noted this already but the VAD Redcross site has four records for Desford.

TEW

The minimum rank for command of that scale would be major so it’s possible that he was the OC.  Most hospitals would have a lieutenant colonel RAMC, but I suspect the demands of convalescence might have been considered something of a lower magnitude.

Edited 21 February by FROGSMILE

[TEW]

Secondly,

Leicestershire Archives online catalogue throws up 16 hits for Desford Hall including the interesting;

DE9631/172 Album of postcard photographs of staff and patients at Desford Hall including First World War military patients.

There's also;

DE9631/171 1905-12 Album of postcard photographs of staff and patients at Desford Hall.

We may be seeing some of the above (Copies) in this topic?

And a bundle of portrait photographs,;

Includes:
George Butler, Vice President, 1934
J. Cipson Clarke, Founder Member & President, 1917-1919
Kingsley S. Gimson, President, 1926-1930
Sydney A. Gimson, Founder Member & President, 1920-1926
J.H. Harris, Vice-President, 1931
William Edwin Hincks (Lord Mayor of Leicester 1929)
William Newbery, Vice President, 1918-1934
T.W. Gordon Kelly, Medical Officer Desford Hall, 1905
W Reginald Tuckett, Medical officer, 1912-1934.
H.H. Woolley, Secretary, 1902-1930
3 unidentified (2 men & 1 woman).

It's possible the Leicsetershire Archives versions have more information on the reverses and where the Local History Society obtained their copies?

I did notice some vegetation changes which would help put the photos into a sequence but as the Archives may have more information I'm not sure it's helpful.

TEW

 

[dink999]

12 hours ago, BarbaraG said:

DALBY 2422 R Hussars - MIC Charles H DALBY - SWB

Dalby, 10th Hussars is listed in the Illustrated Leicester Chronicle dated 28th Aug. 1915. He is amongst 14 wounded who went on a trip to Enderby Hall. He was wounded at Ypres

Also listed and on one of the photos are:-

2209 Dale 23rd London Regt. Wounded at Givenchy

8142 Sgt. Robert Everett, 1st Leicesters. Wounded at Rue De Bois

Image courtesy of Find My Past

 

[Jane Hayward]

So interesting, dink999. I think this is of a similar outing. It's my grandmother striding by the car but no names on the back. And it's not Desford.

2 hours ago, TEW said:

Secondly,

Leicestershire Archives online catalogue throws up 16 hits for Desford Hall including the interesting;

DE9631/172 Album of postcard photographs of staff and patients at Desford Hall including First World War military patients.

There's also;

DE9631/171 1905-12 Album of postcard photographs of staff and patients at Desford Hall.

We may be seeing some of the above (Copies) in this topic?

 

Brilliant! I've emailed them.

[FROGSMILE]

46 minutes ago, Jane Hayward said:

So interesting, dink999. I think this is of a similar outing. It's my grandmother striding by the car but no names on the back. And it's not Desford.

Brilliant! I've emailed them.

The majority of young women who helped organise these events and participated in encouraging some of the activities were very genteel.  It was quite often the first time that they’d ever attended any kind of social event with men of working class backgrounds, although increasingly as the nation mobilised and conscription was introduced the variety of social backgrounds diversified.  The young woman with a clip board stood adjacent to two seated men smoking cigarettes seems to epitomise the phenomena.

Edited 21 February by FROGSMILE

[Jane Hayward]

12 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The majority of young women who helped organise these events and participated in encouraging some of the activities were very genteel.  It was quite often the first time that they’d ever attended any kind of social event with men of working class backgrounds, although increasingly as the nation mobilised and conscription was introduced the variety of social backgrounds diversified.  The young woman with a clip board stood adjacent to two seated men smoking cigarettes seems to epitomise the phenomena.

Quite a contrast to my grandmother who came from an East Riding village and had spent 15 years working in workhouse hospitals

[dink999]

 

So interesting, dink999. I think this is of a similar outing. It's my grandmother striding by the car but no names on the back. And it's not Desford.

Jane, This photo appears in the Illustrated Leicester Chronicle dated Saturday 8 July 1916. The outing took place on Monday the 3rd. The house was Walberton, Stamford Road, Kirby Muxloe. According to the 1911 census it was a property of 18 rooms. Looking at modern maps it appears to have been demolished, replaced with another property but with the same name.

Image courtesy of FMP

 

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, Jane Hayward said:

Quite a contrast to my grandmother who came from an East Riding village and had spent 15 years working in workhouse hospitals

Yes I can imagine that.  Such women were the bedrock of the care and attention the men received.  I’ve long thought it was the beginnings of the NHS ‘idea’ in gestation. 

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, dink999 said:

 

So interesting, dink999. I think this is of a similar outing. It's my grandmother striding by the car but no names on the back. And it's not Desford.

Jane, This photo appears in the Illustrated Leicester Chronicle dated Saturday 8 July 1916. The outing took place on Monday the 3rd. The house was Walberton, Stamford Road, Kirby Muxloe. According to the 1911 census it was a property of 18 rooms. Looking at modern maps it appears to have been demolished, replaced with another property but with the same name.

Image courtesy of FMP

 

I wonder who the studious lady with the clipboard was, she was clearly keeping the score so that exactly who (or which team) won could be determined.

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, Jane Hayward said:

Quite a contrast to my grandmother who came from an East Riding village and had spent 15 years working in workhouse hospitals

I don’t know if you spotted it, but the lance corporal in a greatcoat is actually giving your grandmother a military salute - although not an especially smart one - as he would an officer.

Edited 21 February by FROGSMILE