Jane Hayward Posted 21 February Author Share Posted 21 February Thank you so much, Dink999!!! I have wondered about this photograph for such a long time. I thought it was a newspaper-style one but never found it. I'm thrilled! 5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: I don’t know if you spotted it, but the lance corporal in a greatcoat is actually giving your grandmother a military salute - although not an especially smart one - as he would an officer. I did, and it always makes me smile. I have to say though that my mother said it was the matron in the car so it might have been largely directed at her! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 21 February Share Posted 21 February (edited) 14 minutes ago, Jane Hayward said: Thank you so much, Dink999!!! I have wondered about this photograph for such a long time. I thought it was a newspaper-style one but never found it. I'm thrilled! I did, and it always makes me smile. I have to say though that my mother said it was the matron in the car so it might have been largely directed at her! No I think it’s you’re grandmother in this case Jane, she’s greeting him and reaching out her hand to shake, it seems to me, and he’s responding with an initial salute, which must come first in correct etiquette. The body language is quite compact and revealing, almost like a tableau. Edited 21 February by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane Hayward Posted 21 February Author Share Posted 21 February 5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: No I think it’s you’re grandmother in this case Jane, she’s greeting him and reaching out her hand to shake, it seems to me, and he’s responding with an initial salute, which must come first in correct etiquette. The body language is quite compact and revealing, almost like a tableau. Yes, I see that now you've explained it. Lovely. I think it's such an interesting photograph altogether with the various social interactions. Plus clipboard lady of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Bob Davies Posted 21 February Admin Share Posted 21 February 4 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said: He is definitely a Major in the RAMC. His last medal ribbon is for the QSAM and the centre one looks to be for the MC. The first medal ribbon is unclear but could be for the DSO maybe. Pete. Thank you for confirming RAMC Pete and for adding medal ribbon suggestions. Your help is appreciated. Regards, Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane Hayward Posted 21 February Author Share Posted 21 February 24 minutes ago, Bob Davies said: Thank you for confirming RAMC Pete and for adding medal ribbon suggestions. Your help is appreciated. Regards, Bob. Yes, very much appreciated. I'm hoping to visit the Leicestershire Record Office and perhaps put a name to him. I saw from TEW's link that they hold Desford Hall's annual reports etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Bob Davies Posted 21 February Admin Share Posted 21 February (edited) On 21/02/2024 at 17:40, Jane Hayward said: Yes, very much appreciated. I'm hoping to visit the Leicestershire Record Office and perhaps put a name to him. I saw from TEW's link that they hold Desford Hall's annual reports etc. Thanks Jane, I know we will all be delighted to see what you come up with. From your picture 4. Desford Hall. picture 3. Soldier 149. (Peters Numbering system) Bowyer 2336 - Leic Yeo The closest I can find is, 2538 Pte Frederick Bowyer Leicester Yeomanry/ 255487 Corps of Hussars. From his MIC entered France 27-5-1915. Discharged 1-8-1917. SWB (Silver War Badge) CY 202 (That is the book number under Corps of Hussars) Badge number is 226,012. Sickness is recorded as his injury. His 1915 Star and British War Medal and Victory medal rolls all show the same names, numbers and Regiments. Looking on these rolls from Ancestry I cannot find another Bowyer in any Yeomanry Regiment/Corps of Hussars, with the Number 2336. Therefore I am sure that I have your man. Possibly @charlie962 will be able to confirm my findings as he has done this type of research before. A first for me, a light came on Regards, Bob. Edited 26 February by Bob Davies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane Hayward Posted 21 February Author Share Posted 21 February (edited) Picture 3 Date: late August/early September 1915? 100 Charles H Bignall, 11250, Dorsets, also in the Royal Engineers 101 Shaw, W Ridings 102 Leighton, 3488, 1488? Staff Yeo 103 Ralph Balderson, 21456, Durham Light Infantry, also in the Royal Engineers 104 Albert Edward Taylor, 20716, KOYLI 105 George Cooke/Cook, 12494, Royal Engineers 106 Pennington, 16135, K Liverpool. Could be Edward John Pennington 16135, 2nd South Lancashires. He was from St Helens (near Liverpool). Date of Entry 26/5/15. Appendicitis in the field 24/8/1915 and evacuated to England 5/9/15. Returned to service and was KIA Oct 1916. D Dog 107 M Pendleton, 2182, King's Liverpool Regiment 108 William Smith, RBB/366, 11th & 13th RB Died of wounds 14/3/16 109 William Smith, 3594 King's Royal Rifle Corps 110 John James Mohan, 10573, Liverpool 111 John Ainley, 9522, King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry 112 Robert Charles Bidgood, 5221, 4th Dragoon Guards 113 Thomas Calder, 6362, King's Own Scottish Borderers 114 Nurse 115 Sister Fanny Harper, assistant matron from 1912-1917 116 Matron Lucie Maud Havers, ran Desford Convalescent Home/Auxiliary Military Hospital throughout the war. In August 1918, recognised by the War Office for valuable nursing services 117 Major Thomas Gordon Kelly, medical officer throughout the war 118 Nurse - possibly Florence Maud Morley? 119 Reverend William Townshend, rector of Kirkby Mallory, Leicestershire, 1908-23, and county cricketer 120 Walter Herbert Barnes, 1911, Rifle Brigade 121 Stuart McAulay, 812, Royal Engineers 122 Herbert W Garner, 17013, Suffolks 123 Robert Everitt (Sergt), 8142, 1st Leicesters, Named in Leicester Chronicle article (28/8/15) on Desford soldiers visit to Enderby Hall which said he was wounded at Rue de Bois. Also pictured as No 95. 124 125 126 Williams, 15 Buffs 127 Cox, 20222, Leicester 128 Alexander Budge, 3533, Seaforth Highlanders 129 Harold Barker, 9870, East Kents 130 Frederick Hubert Lake, 2308, Rifle Brigade 131 Herbert John Empringham (Sergt), 8013, 1st Hampshires. Named in Leicester Chronicle article (28/8/15) on Desford soldiers visit to Enderby Hall which said he was wounded at Ypres. Awarded the DCM (3.10.18), 132 Richard Anderson, 857 Scottish Rifles 133 Frank Herbert Hole, 7599 Devons 134 Harold Buck, 3576, Staffs Yeomanry 135 Perkins 136 McNiel, ASC 137 Arthur Wicks, 14343, Notts and Derby Regiment 138 Arthur Widdowson, 3427, Notts and Derby Regiment 139 Brant or Brunt, possibly Robert Matthew Bronte, RAM C Cat, see discussion below. Also 1725 Brant RAMC wounded about Aug 1915. 140 Constantine, 1220, K Liverpool 141 Harold Wollatt/Woollat, 1687 RAMC. Enlisted Sept. 1911, transferred (Own Request) Sept 1915 to Argyll & Southern Highlanders 3085/7575 then in Oct. 1918 he was transferred to the RAMC no. M/398458. 142 Richard Harry Quilter, 11964, Wilts 143 Massay, 6 Liverpool 144 George Sydney Hallum, 3099, Seaforth Highlanders 145 Smith, 4013 or 4073 Leicester 146 William Lear, 10051, 1st Cheshire Regiment, embarked 18 Dec. 1914, discharged 14 Aug. 1918. Named in Leicester Chronicle article (28/8/15) on Desford soldiers visit to Enderby Hall, which said he was wounded at Ypres. 147 Roger Toon, 16715, Leicestershire Regiment 148 (Arthur) Francis Terry, 7884 Rifle Brigade 149 Frederick Bowyer, 2538, Leicestershire Yeomanry/255487 Corps of Hussars 150 Thomas Lovatt, 3436, Rifle Brigade (died 1 July 1916) Edited 28 February by Jane Hayward Soldiers info added twice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Bob Davies Posted 21 February Admin Share Posted 21 February 26 minutes ago, Jane Hayward said: Sounds very promising, Bob. This is what I have for the third pic so far but tons of gaps. I think I have picked off the easy ones! Thanks Jane, just a matter of perseverance I suppose, we will get there in the end Cox is a popular name in the Leicesters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dink999 Posted 22 February Share Posted 22 February 9 hours ago, Jane Hayward said: Lear, 10037 Jane, A Pte Lear 1st Cheshires is listed amongst the 14 who visited Enderby Hall. The one that fits is Pte 10051 William Lear, embarked 18 Dec. 1914, discharged 14 Aug. 1918. 9 hours ago, Jane Hayward said: Empingham, 8073 or 8013, Hants Also amongst the 14 is Sgt. H Empringham 1st Hampshires. He is 8013 Sgt. Herbert John Empringham who was later awarded the DCM. Image courtesy of Ancestry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane Hayward Posted 22 February Author Share Posted 22 February A Pte Lear 1st Cheshires is listed amongst the 14 who visited Enderby Hall. The one that fits is Pte 10051 William Lear Brilliant find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane Hayward Posted 22 February Author Share Posted 22 February Friday August 27th 1915 (Issue 1225 of the Coalville Times). DESFORD WOUNDED SOLDIERS OUTING TO LEAMINGTON Favoured with fine weather, the wounded soldiers stationed at the Convalescent Home, Desford, were taken to Leamington on Thursday afternoon by the Earl Shilton and Barwell Motor Association. The arrangements were admirably carried out by the organising secretary, Mr L. M. P. Ney. A start was made from the hall at 2.45, and the cars, headed by Mr L. M. P. Ney’s “pilot car,” proceeded through Earl Shilton, Barwell, Hinckley, Wolvey, Walsgrave, Coventry, Kenilworth, and Warwick, arriving at Leamington about 4.45. The ruins at Kenilworth were inspected, and a halt was made on the bridge at Warwick for a view of the castle. In most of the villages people turned out in large numbers to give the soldiers a good cheer as they went along. This was particularly noticeable at Wolvey, where on the return the cars were signalled to stop in the village square. Nearly all the inhabitants must have turned out, including the Vicar, to greet the men, and cigarettes, chocolates, plums, apples, bananas, and flowers in abundance, were thrown into the vehicles. In one car alone 52 packets of cigarettes were collected. As the cars were about to leave three hearty cheers were given for the people of Wolvey in appreciation of their generosity. Tea was provided at the Café Royal, Leamington, and was given by Mr Ney, secretary of the Association. After repast, cigars were handed round and before leaving a hearty vote of thanks was accorded Mr Ney, with the usual three cheers, proposed by Sergt. Everett. Mr Ney suitably responded, and spoke of the generous spirit displayed by the car owners in lending their vehicles for these outings. He hoped before the fine weather was over many more outings would be arranged. The return journey was made via Stoneleigh and Coventry and enthusiasm was at a very high pitch en route for the halt at Wolvey (as already mentioned), Hinckley and Earl Shilton. The Home was reached at 7.45, after a run of 75 miles in all. Those lending cars were Messrs. L. M. P. Ney, A. V. Hopecroft, C.C., W. H. Bird, S. Norton, H. Orion and George Geary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbaraG Posted 22 February Share Posted 22 February (edited) Apologies for finds already mentioned. I've included refs. if anyone would like more details. A couple of suggestions/alternate transcriptions. Bignall, 11280 or 11200, 11250 Dorsets MIC Charles H BIGNALL Dorset R Pte 11250 / R E Sgt WR/281138 / R E 310227 * see BIGNAL R E SWB Shaw, W Ridings Leighton, 3488, 1488? Staff Yeo Balderson, 21486 or 21456, Durham MIC Ralph BALDERSON Taylor, 20716, KOYL L1 Corke, 12494, RE Pennington, 16135, K Liverpool WFA Pension Record M Pendleton, 2182, King's Liverpool Regiment Smith, 336 RB WFA Pension Record William Smith 3594 King's Royal Rifle Corps Morham, 10573, K Liverpool MIC John James MOHAN Liverpool R Pte 10573 - SWB Enlisted 24.7.14 Discharge 30.1.16 Wounds WFA Pension Record Garner, 1703, Suffolks MIC Herbert W GARNER Suff R Pte 17103 / Pte 241320 Macauley, 812, RE MIC Stuart McAULAY R E Pte 812 / R E Pte 406394 / A & S Hrs 1290 SWB Enlisted 5.8.14 Discharge 1.1.19 Sickness Walter Herbert Barnes, 1911, Rifle Brigade MIC Thomas Calder, 6362, King's Own Scottish Borderers MIC Robert Charles Bidgood, 5221, 4th Dragoon Guards MIC - SWB - WFA Pension Record John Ainley, 9522, King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry Robert Everett, 8142, Leicesters MIC Cpl 8142 Robert EVERITT 1st Bn Leics Reg / A/Sjt 8142 1st Bn Leics Reg Discharged 1.7.17 - SWB Williams, 1st Buffs Cox, 20222, Leicester Alexander Budge, 3533, Seaforth Highlanders Harold Barker, 9870, East Kents Frederick Hubert Lake, 2308, Rifle Brigade Empingham, 8073 or 8013, Hants Richard Anderson, 857 Scottish Rifles Frank Herbert Hole, 7599 Devons Harold Buck, 3576, Staffs Yeomanry Perkins McNiel, ASC Arthur Wicks, 14343, Notts and Derby Regiment WFA Pension Record Died of wounds 29.7.16 https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/77852/arthur-wickes/ Arthur Widdowson, 3427, Notts and Derby Regiment Brant or Brant, RAM ??? MIC BRONTE Robert Mathew R.A.M.C Capt. Constantine, 1220, K Liverpool Woollat, 1689 RAM C Linilter, 11964, Wilts MIC Wilts R Pte 11964 Richard Harry QUILTER - SWB Massay, 6 Liverpool MURRAY George Sydney Hallum, 3099, Seaforth Highlanders MIC - SWB - WFA Pension Record Smith, 4013 or 4073 Leicester Lear, 10037 MIC Pte 10051 William LEAR Cheshire Regiment - SWB - WFA Pension Record Roger Toon, 16715, Leicestershire Regiment MIC Francis Terry, 7884 Rifle Brigade WFA Pension Records Killed in Action 21.8.16 https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/815451/arthur-francis-terry/ Bowyer, 2536 or 2336, Leicestershire Yeomanry Thomas Lovatt, 3436, Rifle Brigade (died 1 July 1916) Edited 22 February by BarbaraG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane Hayward Posted 22 February Author Share Posted 22 February You are excellent at deciphering my grandma's writing, Barbara. I can't tell you how long it took me to get Quilter. I have these two which I found just with the regiment number on Find My Past but can't find elsewhere. Not sure about them. Albert Edward Taylor, 20716, KOYL L1 (from Find My Past, born 1886) George Cook or Cooke, 12494, Royal Engineers??? (From Find My Past) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 22 February Share Posted 22 February Third photo. Regarding the man IDd at present as; 'Robert Matthew Bronte, RAM C Cat' Or 'Brant or Brant, RAM ??? MIC BRONTE Robert Mathew R.A.M.C Capt.' He is RAMC and if I've got the right man he's not in uniform so must be a patient. You're not going to have a RAMC captain mixed in with ORs. I would go with Brant or Brunt. I'm not seeing any MICs to that name/unit but there is 1725 Brant RAMC wounded about Aug 1915 and 1970 Brunt RAMC wounded Aug 1916. The other RAMC man - Woolatt is surely written as 1687 not 1689. Either way he's being elusive! Incidently, KOY L1 should read KOYLI, King's own Yorkshire light infantry. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane Hayward Posted 22 February Author Share Posted 22 February (edited) Harold Wollatt, 1687, Royal Army Medical Corps, from Find My Past's Military Records? I don't have an account so can't view the details. Edited 23 February by Jane Hayward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Bob Davies Posted 23 February Admin Share Posted 23 February Hello All, I need your help please, cause I am struggling to find this Soldier on Ancestry. This is the list, back of the picture. This is the name, At first sight it looks like; Cox 202222 Leicester(s) There are 20 plus Coxs listed under Leicestershire Regiment but none with that service number. As he is in a convalescent home, one would presume he would have a SWB. So I have been through all lists, MIC etc and the only 202222 number comes up with Fox 20222 Manchester Regiment. SWB List H/656 Is the C an L or an F or other? If any one can help please shout out. @kenf48 @Matlock1418 @PRC If I may call upon you to help? Best wishes, Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 23 February Share Posted 23 February (edited) 7 hours ago, Bob Davies said: At first sight it looks like; Cox 202222 Leicester(s) Bob, To me the number is 20222 [you've an extra 2 in there] That 20222 can offer a MIC for a Harold COX, 20222, RFA [14 Bde] He has an unspecified condition disability pension index card - we can see he was discharged 16.1.17 Unfortunately the PIC doesn't have an address so we can't see if he came from Leicester [but perhaps another record can be found somewhere] ??? M Edited 23 February by Matlock1418 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 23 February Admin Share Posted 23 February I think we have to consider he did not return to the Leicestershire Regiment but in all probability was posted elsewhere and renumbered, e.g. Labour Corps. The Medal Roll for the Leicestershire Regiment Courtesy Ancestry We may find an initial in the casualty records but I'm late to this thread and haven't read it all for once it's nt raining and the dogs have to go out but will have a look later unless someone else comes up with the answer. It's unusual as FMP does index earlier units. Harold Cox was from Deptford in Kent and in the RFA His record survives and no Leicester connection. 20221 Hardy (allocated 8th February 1915) 2/4th Battalion then RDC and finally Labour Corps 20226 was allocated on 25th March 1915 to a Pte George who appears to be a Special Reservist who was posted to the 5th Supernumerary Company and then on to the RDC he is not on the Leicester Roll Both these men were aged 48 and 49 years respectively on enlistment 20227 Ross who is on the Roll enlisted on 22nd May 1915 and was posted to the 2nd Battalion and was wounded and evacuated to India on recovery returned to unit via Basrah and posted missing death presumed January 1917. He was aged 21 and enlisted at Nuneaton. Not sure any of this takes us closer to identifying Pte. 20222 Cox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 23 February Share Posted 23 February 2 minutes ago, kenf48 said: Harold Cox was from Deptford in Kent and in the RFA His record survives and no Leicester connection. Thanks Ken - I was clutching at a straw M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 23 February Share Posted 23 February (edited) 16 minutes ago, kenf48 said: I think we have to consider he did not return to the Leicestershire Regiment but in all probability was posted elsewhere and renumbered, e.g. Labour Corps. Funny you should suggest that ... I was just looking a chap who was Labour Corps, late Leicesters Charles COX, 595871, Labour Corps [another potential 47849 is floating around on the card - but no 20222] 35 Lower St, Newcastle-on-Tyne. Discharged 30-9-18, Unspeciified disability So again very much ??? M Edited 23 February by Matlock1418 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 23 February Share Posted 23 February @Bob Davies Regarding As he is in a convalescent home, one would presume he would have a SWB. It's not a certainty that these men went on to be discharged. I think some have been shown to have later service with other units or to commission. Plus, some of the photos pre-date the SWB and those that may have been discharged would have to apply later and not all men bothered with it. There is the possibility that the names/numbers/units on the reverse may not be 100% correct. There is some correcting on the 3rd photo. I'm not certain that all these men necessarily had overseas service which makes the hunt for them much more difficult. It's possible to have home based accidents or sickness. 1687 Wollatt RAMC. Seems to have a WO363 sheet on FMP (I can't view it) but I haven't made any match to medals by name or number. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 23 February Share Posted 23 February Re. TEW's last post, I can help with the RB men B/366, Smith, William 11th & 13th RB Died of wounds 14/3/16 Z/1911, Barnes, Walter Herbert, 3rd, 10th, 2nd, 10th & 2nd RB, Class Z 1/4/19 B/2308, Lake, Frederick Hubert, 8th RB, WIA Gsw Calf 31/7/15, invalided to UK 15/8/15, to 5th RB 21/11/15, Commissioned 3rd Att'd 13th Royal Sussex Regiment 4/8/16, WIA 31/7/17 S/7884, Terry, Arthur Francis 8th, 3rd RB, KIA 21/8/16 B/3436, Lovatt, Thomas, 7th & 1st RB WIA 27/7/15, invalided UK 15/8/15, Depot 1/10/15, BEF again 31/12/15 KIA 1/7/16 3865, Scott, Charles James, 4th RB going overseas with them, WIA Gsw Neck 9/5/15, 2nd Garrison Northants Battalion 1/10/16, 13th Royal Defence Corps 10/8/17, Disc KR392 Xvi 26/11/17, awarded Silver War Badge 279314 Hope it helps a little Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Bob Davies Posted 23 February Admin Share Posted 23 February 2 hours ago, Matlock1418 said: Bob, To me the number is 20222 [you've an extra 2 in there] That 20222 can offer a MIC for a Harold COX, 20222, RFA [14 Bde] He has an unspecified condition disability pension index card - we can see he was discharged 16.1.17 Unfortunately the PIC doesn't have an address so we can't see if he came from Leicester [but perhaps another record can be found somewhere] ??? M Thank you M, I see that now on my post, my big fat fingers adding an extra 2 Searching on Ancestry I was using 20222, as I kept checking and re looking. Thanks for your help, It confirms I am not a complete duffer when it comes to looking up these men. 1 hour ago, kenf48 said: I think we have to consider he did not return to the Leicestershire Regiment but in all probability was posted elsewhere and renumbered, e.g. Labour Corps. Thank you for your help Ken, I had not considered this, there are obviously so many variations on service etc, that it is not just a case of finding the name/number in a list, that you hope is in Alphabetical order or numerical order. @TEW Thank you for you help here, certainly some ideas I had not thought about, it is good to find out and then remember these points in future searches. There was me thinking 'you doddering old fool Bob, it has to be here some place' Many thanks to you all for the education Regards, Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dink999 Posted 23 February Share Posted 23 February 1 hour ago, TEW said: 1687 Wollatt RAMC. Seems to have a WO363 sheet on FMP (I can't view it) but I haven't made any match to medals by name or number. He is Harold Wollatt/Woollatt. Enlisted Sept. 1911, transferred (Own Request) Sept 1915 to Argyll & Southern Highlanders 3085/7575 then in Oct. 1918 he was transferred to the RAMC no. M/398458. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 23 February Share Posted 23 February (edited) What a fantastic team effort by everyone. Kudos to you all. How wonderful it will be if these photos can be preserved, along with the extra meaning given by the annotation with the fates of the sitters, and then on public display somewhere. It really is the forum at its best I think. 👍 Edited 23 February by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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