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19th officer cadet I’d love if any one recognised any names


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24 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

George Ogilvie Penny seems on the surface of things a good match given that there were no obvious candidates previously.  Put in another way, and being devil’s advocate, what are the reasons why it couldn’t be him?

 

 If he is the man seated directly above the signature , the headdress would suit .  https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C723506    . Scottish Horse .

Edited by esco
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6 minutes ago, Charles Fair said:

From my research and digging round the LG I have found that not all cadets in a given intake were commissioned immediately at the end of the course,  Some were backsquadded because of illness and injury, Others may have been on the borderline and were recommended to stay on for an extra month or two in order to gain more experience of command.  Others may have narrowly failed the exams, but were recommended to pass because they had proved themselves in other ways, e.g. command roles on exercise.  In both these cases approval needed to be sought by SD3 in the War Office who usually confirmed the CO's recommendations.  I have sometimes found paperwork to this effect in their service records in WO 339 or WO 374.

That is entirely commensurate with my understanding too Charles, and follows some well tried and trusted principles of officer selection and training.

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5 minutes ago, esco said:

 

 If he is the man seated directly above the signature , the headdress would suit .  https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C723506    . Scottish Horse .

Yes I agree, an Atholl bonnet certainly fits, and I think I can even see the hint of a slashed cuff panel on his left sleeve as favoured by that regiment.  Do we know the subsequent unit of the fellow Scot sat immediately adjacent to him?

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47 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes I agree, an Atholl bonnet certainly fits, and I think I can even see the hint of a slashed cuff panel on his left sleeve as favoured by that regiment.  Do we know the subsequent unit of the fellow Scot sat immediately adjacent to him?

I don't think the other Scot has been identified yet .

There is a photograph on Ancestry of  George Ogilvie Penny taken, I would guess, in the 60s-70s .

The same man ?

9D547CAD-386B-47A7-8DBB-B9F856AAAC4B.jpeg.7c6215b58b3c0b3aa3fd21187c198ea4.jpeg

289b46ca-a590-4d9b-a86f-e9d47a86a1e2.jpg

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Just now, esco said:

I don't think the other Scot has been identified yet .

There is a photograph on Ancestry of  George Ogilvie Penny taken, I would guess, in the 60s-70s .

The same man ?

9D547CAD-386B-47A7-8DBB-B9F856AAAC4B.jpeg.7c6215b58b3c0b3aa3fd21187c198ea4.jpeg

289b46ca-a590-4d9b-a86f-e9d47a86a1e2.jpg

In my opinion yes, I believe it is.  The left ear and lower lip and jawline match well.

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30 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

In my opinion yes, I believe it is.  The left ear and lower lip and jawline match well.

Thank you Frogsmile . I also think there are similarities , and not just the 'tache .

The Aberdeenshire Electoral Register for 1918 & 1919  show G.O. Penny as absent and a soldier .

                                                                                     Regards .

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On 06/10/2021 at 22:23, Charles Fair said:

From my research and digging round the LG I have found that not all cadets in a given intake were commissioned immediately at the end of the course,  Some were backsquadded because of illness and injury, Others may have been on the borderline and were recommended to stay on for an extra month or two in order to gain more experience of command.  Others may have narrowly failed the exams, but were recommended to pass because they had proved themselves in other ways, e.g. command roles on exercise.

Oh sugar – I wish someone had brought this up earlier. When I’ve been looking at the October 1917 Army List for specific individuals, I’ve also been checking out the other 2nd Lieutenants in the same unit with a seniority date of the 27th June 1917 to see if any of the “unmatched” names might have a candidate there. Anything after that date I’ve just treated as noise and ignored. However if the parameters have opened that much, (and possibly more), then better candidates for some of these names may well have been missed. I’d have to take a break before I’d even consider going back and taking another look. But for now here’s who I think are the remaining names.

Simpson.jpg.1ebb67313a2c6d68fa6eebe4b16bbbcf.jpg

W.Simpson –  Cadet William Simpson gazetted Temporary Second Lieutenant from the 27th June 1917 in the supplement dated 17th July 1917, Page 7201 Regular Army, York and Lancaster Regiment. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30187/supplement/7201/

The nearest to a possible MIC match is for a Private 19779 William Simpson, York and Lancaster Regiment, who was discharged to a commission in the same Regiment on the 26th June 1917. As a Private he had first landed in France on the 10th September 1915. (The LLT records that the 10th (Service) Battalion landed at Boulogne on the 11th September 1915.) Only the 1914/15 Star is shown as issued on this MiC, but there is another roll reference written above the Remarks box and which probably relates to the issue of his Victory Medal and British War Medal. There are no contact details shown on the MiC.

The October 1917 British Army List records that a Second Lieutenant W. Simpson with seniority from the 27th June 1917 was on the establishment of the Regular Army Battalions of the York and Lancaster Regiment but attached to the 16th Battalion. (See Column 1423f). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/106331964

16th (Transport Workers) Battalion

Formed at Colsterdale in March 1916. Moved to Durham in December 1916 and then Catterick in November 1917 where it then remained. Army Council Instruction 1488 of 1916 defined the establishment of the battalion as being much larger than a normal battalion of infantry. Organised into eight companies, it would have 24 officers, 8 Warrant Officers, 65 Sergeants and 1415 other men. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/york-lancaster-regiment/

By the time of the November 1918 British Army List there is a Second Lieutenant W. Simpson with seniority from the 27th June 1917 who was recorded on the establishment of the 7th (Service) Battalion, York and Lancaster Regiment. (See Column 1426a). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123104253

The 7th Battalion were the Divisional Pioneers of the 17th (Northern) Division, and had been in France since July 1915. (See LLT link above).

Andrews.jpg.f96136b048a3fded939aa3243bb770ad.jpg

Original guess Alg. Andrews – As identified by @esco, from the Supplement to the London Gazette dated 17 July 1917, page 7200, Cadet Alfred George Andrews who received a Temporary Commission in the Regular Army, Middlesex Regiment, effective 27th June 1917 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30187/supplement/7200

There is a MiC for a 2nd Lieutenant Alfred George Andews of the Middlesex Regiment, but he was commissioned 6th February 1917. He was ex Private G/5639 in the same Regiment.

The October 1917 British Army List has an A.G. Andrew (1379) and an A.G. Andrews 1385m (Middlesex). The latter is an honourable Lieutenant and Adjutant in the 29th (Works) Battalion, Middlesex Regiment – with seniority from the 10th July 1916. Column 1379 would be the Regular Army Battalions of the Middlesex Regiments and does include Second Lieutenants with seniority from the 27th June 1917, but no-one with the surname Andrews.

Checking to the CWGC to see if this was because he was already dead, I didn’t find an exact match. But what CWGC did show up as a close match was a Second Lieutenant Alfred George ANDREWS, 4th Battalion, Middlesex Regiment, who died on the 14th October 1918, aged 23. He is buried at St. Sever Cemetery Extension, Rouen. Addditional information is that he was the “Son of Capt. Alfred George and Emily Andrews, of 27, St. Andrew's Rd., Portslade, Brighton.” https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/515609/alfred-george-andrews/

The grave register records that he died 14th October of wounds received 12th October.

Skipping forward to the British Army List for December 1917 to allow the index and the actual establishment to come back in line, it becomes clearer why there is an issue. On the establishment of the Regular Army Battalions of the Middlesex Regiment there is an entry in column 1378a for a Second Lieutenant Andrews with seniority from the 27th June 1917. But his initials are shown as “C.G.”, not “A.G.” https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103986752

And that is how they appear on the October 1917 Army list, this time also in Column 1378a. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/106331414

Both times he is shown as posted to the 4th Battalion. Soldiers Died in the Great War also records him as serving with the 4th Battalion.

By the time of his death the 4th Battalion was part of the 63rd Brigade of the 37th Division, serving in France. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/the-duke-of-cambridges-own-middlesex-regiment/

From “The Die Hards in the Great War: Volume 2” by Everard Wyrall.

Pages 257-258.

On the 11th the Middlesex moved forward to support the Lincolnshire and Somersets who had pushed two platoons across the river. During the day there had been a certain amount of shell fire.

Orders had been received that the attack was to be continued on the morning of the 12th of October. The objective of the 63rd Brigade was the high ground east of the river and just east of the Neuvilly-Solesmes road. The Middlesex were to lead the attack of the Brigade at 5 a.m., with “A” Company on the right, “B” in the centre, and “D” on the left : “C” Company was to be in support to follow at a distance of 800 yards and “mop up” the railway line and help consolidate the main line of resistance.

The barrage fell at zero with good effects on the right, but with poor results on the left. Heavy machine-gun fire from Bellevue and from the railway line in front encountered in the advance and momentarily checked it, but the centre company, under 2/Lieut. H.M. Chaundy, gave the enemy “ten rounds rapid” which so demoralized him that he abandoned his machine guns and the advance continued. The railway line was thus gained by the centre and right companies and rifle fire opened on the retreating enemy. Sergant Harris of “A” Company, having discovered that a German officer and his orderly were hiding in a tunnel under the railway, went in pursuit and killed both. The advance from the railway to the final objective (the high ground east of the railway) was then carried out without resistance.

The left company, however, suffering heavy casualties from machine-gun fire from Bellevue, was held up in an attack on that place. The German machine guns were stubborn and could not be put out of action. Only 2/Lieut. Bloy with a section, on the right of the company, succeeded in crossing the railway and took up position on the high ground left of “B” Company, but the remainder of the left company were forced to form a defensive flank.

The support company crossed the river through the enemy’s barrage and sent a platoon to fill the gap between the centre and left companies : the other three platoons echeloned to the left to protect the flank from the north.

The enemy had now discovered that the attack was not being pressed further, and began to dribble back in small parties to the high ground east of the Middlesex and then to push men down the railway from Bellevue where he opened fire on the Battalion then engaged in consolidating their positions. Orders were then received to withdraw to the line of the railway, but it was found impossible to hold the latter owing to the heavy enfilade fire the enemy had brought to bear upon it. The Middlesex were then withdrawn to the sunken road between the river and the railway where a line was organized. Patrols were pushed forward to the railway when the capture of Bellevue was reported, but the Battalion was relieved and moved back to Caudry.

The losses of the 4th Middlesex in this action were:- Killed: Capt. G.N. Viner, 2/Lieuts. W.J. Turner and R.E. McFadden and 19 other ranks. Wounded: Capt. A.J. Klaiber, Lieut. J.B. Bucknill, 2/Lieuts. J.P. Lindsay, J.L. Selfe and A.G. Andrews (died of wounds 14.10.18) and 95 other ranks. 15 other ranks were missing.

The most likely birth of this Alfred George Andrews appears on the Army Birth Returns for 1891 to 1895. His birth was registered at Ahmednagar in 1895.

On the 1901 Census of England & Wales the 5 year old Alfred Andrews, born India, was recorded as a Boarder at 7 Russell Place, Dover. Among the other boarders is a married woman, Emily Andrews, (aged 32, born Maidenhead, Berkshire) and an Emily Andrews, (aged 3, born India).

By the time of the 1911 Census of England & Wales the 15 year old Alfred George Andrews, an apprentice pianoforte maker(?), born Ahmednegar, Idia, was recorded living at 99 High Street, Mortlake, Surrey. This was the household, (and shop), of his parents, Alfred George, (40, Grocer Shopkeeper) and Emily, (41, born Colnbrook, Middlesex). The couple have been married 16 years and have had 2 children – Alfred plus the 13 year old Emily Ellen, born Bombay, India.

From page 6 of the Middlesex Chronicle dated February 6th, 1915.

Under the general heading “Our local warriors” :-

Mr. Alfred Andrews, one of the assistants of the establishment of Messrs Webb Bros., of Cecila House, High-street, Hounslow, has this week enlisted in the Middlesex Regiment. His father, Sergt.-Major Andrews, was for some years chief of the non-commissioned staff of the 8th (I.S.) Battalion of the D.C.O. Middlesex regiment at Hounslow. He has emerged from his retirement and re-joined the colours, and has been appointed Quartermaster-Sergeant of the Battalion to which his son has been posted.

So seems likely the father may be the Honorary Lieutenant and Quartermaster recorded with the Middlesex Regiment in the October 1917 British Army List.

I suspect this is confirmed by the entry in the 1918 Probate Calendar. An Alfred George Andrews, of 27 St Andrews Road, Postslade, Sussex, lieutenant 4th Battalion Middlesex Regiment died 14 October 1918 in France on active service. Administration was granted at the London court on the 16 December 1917 to Alfred George Andrews, lieutenant and quartermaster H.M. Army. https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=Andrews&yearOfDeath=1918#calendar

The older Alfred George Andrews was killed in a motor bike accident at Hove on September 25, 1923. An obituary in the West Sussex Gazette records that he joined the Middlesex Regiment in 1887 and would serve 23 years in the colours, seeing service in the Boer War and India.  Leaving the Army for the first time in 1909 with the rank of Colour Sergeant, he then saw service with the Middlesex Territorials and on moving to Portslade in 1912, the R.F.A. Cadets. On the outbreak of war he rejoined as an R.S.M., went out to France with a Middlesex Regiment taking part in the Battle of Loos, eventually ending up with a Labour Battalion at home, leaving the Army for the second time in 1918 with the rank of Captain. His only son also held a commission in the Middlesex Regiment, and gave his life in the war.

Evans.jpg.3bca9697dd891ac18a1bad7fe0b0b902.jpg

J. Evans Yreorci – Probably Cadet John Evans gazetted Temporary Second Lieutenant in the supplement dated 17th July 1917, Page 7200 Regular Army Welsh Regiment. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30187/supplement/7200

There are potentially MiC’s for five 2nd Lieutenant John Evans, (no middle names) who served with the Welsh Regiment, but the most likely candidate seems to have been C.Q.M.S. 41900 who was serving with the 23rd Welsh Battalion when he landed in Salonika in August 1916. He was discharged to a commission on the “25th” June 1917.

The October 1917 Army List records that attached to the establishment of the regular Army Battalions of the Welsh Regiment was a Second Lieutenant J. Evans with seniority from the 27th June 1917. He was then serving with the 14th Battalion. (See column 1272d) https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/106330490

14th (Service) Battalion (Swansea)

Formed at Swansea in October 1914 by the Mayor and Corporation and the Swansea Football and Cricket Club.
Moved to Rhyl and came under orders of 129th Brigade in 43rd Division.
28 April 1915 : formation became the 114th Brigade in 38th (Welsh) Division. Moved to Winchester in August 1915.
Landed at Le Havre in December 1915.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/welsh-regiment/

He applied for his medals in January 1920, giving a contact address of Penylan, Suton Street, Treorchy, Glamorganshire.

Cheers,
Peter

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Peter, I suspect you are on safe ground re 27th June for matches already identified as I would expect the majority of the intake would have been gazetted together. For those for whom there wasn't an instant match then later Gazette dates would need to be considered.

All in I think you desrerve a medal yourself for the excellent research and effort you have put into this - WELL DONE!

David

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1 hour ago, DavidOwen said:

All in I think you desrerve a medal yourself for the excellent research and effort you have put into this - WELL DONE!

Peter, a remarkable example of your patient, immaginative and detailed research.

ditto the Well Done

Charlie

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A tour de force Peter, you are fast becoming the exemplar in this highly specialised field methinks.

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Thank you @DavidOwen, @charlie962 amd @FROGSMILE for your kind words. :)

Given that the many people coming to the forum looking for a photo of a relative are undoubtedly just the tip of the iceberg, and how many photo's there are of unnamed or unidentifiable* individuals, then it's good to potentially get a few more names and faces in circulation.

*I was looking earlier this week at a picture in the contemporary local Norfolk newspapers of a "Private Smith who was home on leave" without an inkling of where to begin!

Now to move on to that 1918 picture - we know it's likely to have been taken in the first ten weeks as the most likely candidate for the adjutant is released from his commission in mid-March 1918. So all I need to do is identify all the likely commissioned officer cadets from this period and then look for pictures of them to see if a match can be made. Perhaps on second thoughts I'll give it a miss:)

Running back through the signatures I could not find a match for:-

207386564_RandlesorCandles.jpeg.4abd5840d1bfffa3b561ac25636c4e40.jpeg

My original guess was F Ian Candle or Frank Candle – but I’m not finding a likely MiC or London Gazette entry.

On 30/09/2021 at 18:50, esco said:

Cadet Frank Carville was granted a Temporary Commission in the Regular Army, Royal West Kent Regiment, effective 27th June 1917 in the supplement dated 17th July 1917, Page 7200. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30187/supplement/7200

There is a MiC for a Frank Carville who was initially Private 1100 in the 22nd Battalion, Royal Fusiliers when he first landed in France on the 16th November 1915. He was discharged to a Commission on the 26th June 1917. He would go on to be Acting Captain then Captain in the 8th Battalion Royal West Kent Regiment.

The October 1917 Army List records that a Second Lieutenant F. Carville with seniority from the 27th June 1917 was on the strength of the Regular Army Battalions of The Queen’s Own (Royal West Kent Regiment) and was serving with the 8th Battalion. (Column 1351e). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/106331183

Battalion War Diary

18th August 1917. 2/ Lt F. Carville listed amongst 6 2Lts who joined from base.

8th December 1917. Raid attempted by D Coy, 2/Lts CARVILLE and HOLLIDAY unsuccessful owing to wire not being cut.

January 1918. A summary of the Battalion organisation at the end of the months’ diary entry shows 2/Lt F. Carville as ‘D’ Company Commander.

3rd February 1918. Raid by D Coy on enemy trenches. No prisoners taken but casualties inflicted on enemy. 2/Lt F.CARVILLE WIA, 2/Lt J.S. CRIGHTON wounded and prisoner. (Carville is not listed as a Company Commander at the end of the month).

Appendices in that months war diary detail the preparation for the raid and then there is a narrative of events including :-

At 9.55 p.m. 2/Lieut. CARVILLE led his party into the enemy trench at G.1.d.90.15. The wire had been perfectly cut and the entry was made without difficulty. The party then proceeded along the trench Northwards and reached  a point about G.1.d.9.2 where an enemy post is normally held. This was found to be unoccupied and the party proceeded again towards the suspected dug-out at G.1.d.90.30. At this moment loud shouting was heard and a large party of the enemy appeared on the high back  which forms the parados of the trench at this point. Our men were very heavily bombed from this bank and further reinforcements in large numbers came across, probably from dug-outs in the bak at G.2.c.00.05. One of the enemy, either Officer or Warrant-Officer, dropped into the front line at about G.1.d.90.25 and made off North. 2/Lieut. F. CARVILLE at once pursued him and fired four revolver shots into him at close range. 2/Lieut. CARVILLE did not consider it possible to search this man as by this time the enemy party had been considerably reinforced, his party was hopelessly out-numbered and in great danger of being cut-off.

It was impossible to scale the parados and the order was given for our party to throw all remaining bombs and return to their assembly positions in No Man’s Land. One of the enemy stood up to throw a bomb and was shot by 2/Lieut. CARVILLE.

By this time 2/Lieut. CARVILLE had been twice wounded but he succeeded in getting his party back to shell-holes outside the enemy wire. From there he ordered the party to return to our trenches in small parties and finally returned himself at 10.45 p.m. The casualties in this party were several but not serious, but unfortunately a trench mortar fell among a party of six entering our trenches in CURTAIN LANE and killed or wounded them all.

The other officer led party seems to have fared worse, with some of the casualties incurred in the attempt to recover the wounded officer who subsequently had to be abandonned.

FindMyPast has the Medical Admission Register for the Queen Alexandra’s Military Hospital at Millback which records the arrival of a Lieutenant F. Carville of the 8th Royal West Kents from a sick convoy on the 16th February 1918. He had a B.W. left thigh. He was moved on to another medical facility on the 4th April 1918 but I couldn’t make out the name  - unless it was Mont Don or Dove.

A Military Cross was gazetted to Temporary 2nd Lieutenant Frank Carville, Royal West Kent Regiment, in the supplement dated 26th March 1918  - page 3744 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30597/supplement/3744/data.pdf

The citation subsequently appeared in the London Gazette dated 24th August 1918.

For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty during a raid on the enemy's trenches. He led his men with great courage and determination into the enemy's lines, and personally accounted for two of the enemy. Though he was twice wounded, he succeeded in withdrawing all his party safely, after being out for more than two hours. http://www.janetandrichardsgenealogy.co.uk/2nd Lieut F Carville.html

War Diary 10th July 1918.

2Lt F. CARVILLE from England – to D Coy.

The August 1918 Diary has an appendix showing the break down of the Battalion organisation all the way down to the section commanders and their 2 i\c’s. 2nd Lieutenant F. Carville, M.C., is shown as No. 13 Platoon Commander in “D” Company.

3rd September 1918.

9th E. Surrey posts on our left were attacked and driven in, but afterwards re-established. 2 Lt. CARVILLE. M.C.  wounded while going to assistance of a post attacked on our left.

No further reference to him in the rest of 1918.

London Gazette 28th May 1919.

Royal West Kent Regiment. - The under mentioned temporary 2nd Lieutenants to be temporary Lieutenants: F Carville. 27 December 1918, with precedence next below J C Parminter

London Gazette 4th May 1920.

Royal West Kent Regiment. - Temporary 2nd Lieutenant F Carville, M.C., relinquishes his commission on account of ill health caused by wounds, 5 May 1920 and is granted the rank of Captain. (Both from http://www.janetandrichardsgenealogy.co.uk/2nd Lieut F Carville.html

According to his MiC, when he applied for his medals in June 1920 his contact address was 187 Shirland Road, Maida Vale, London.

On the 1911 Census of England & Wales there is a 21 year old Frank Carville,  a Drapers Assistant born Tunbridge Wells, who was recorded living at 187 Shirland Road, Paddington. This was the household of his parents Thomas A. Carville, (49, a Painter Motor Mechanic for a Motor Manfacturer, born Southboro’ Kent) and Emily S, (44, born Bedford). The couple have been married 25 years and have had five children, of which four were then still alive. As well as Frank, still single and living with them are their young daughters Elise, (17, born Tunbridge Wells) and Ivy, (13, born Ightham, Kent).

The most likely birth was that of a Frank Carville registered in the Tunbridge Wells District of Kent in Q2 1889. I couldn’t find records of a baptism for in online at the sources familysearch and freereg. But the latter has a Ivy Carville, no date of birth transcribed, who was baptised at Ightham, Kent on the 26th September 1897. Her parents were Thomas Abbott Carville, a Butcher, and Emily Sarah Carville. https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/59129893f493fdccf977dd5c/ivy-carville-baptism-kent-ightham-1897-09-26?locale=en

A Frank Carville of 187 Shirland Road, Mailda Vale, London W., enlisted in the Reserve Battalion of the 13th London Regiment at Kensington on the 2nd September 1914. His service number was 2744. His age was given as 24 years and 5 months and he stood 6 feet and a half inch tall. His next of kin was his father Thomas Carville, of 187 Shirland Road, Maida Vale, (London) W.

I believe what the medical officer has written is fit for the Territorial Force “except teeth cavies” – but other interpretation coukd be equally valid. This is a doctors’ handwriting after all :)

Franks’ signature on the attestation would perhaps cause some doubt over whether the right man has been identified from the autograph on the 1917 19th Cadet Battalion picture. However some of the doubt may be removed when you look at how he wrote his name when filling out the declaration.

385427437_FrankCarvilleattestationstatement020914sourcedFMP.jpg.9ffb640423f87a837875348819606f8e.jpg

Image courtesy FindMyPast.

He was discharged from the Territorial Force on the 14th October 1914  “under para 156 (4) T.F. Regns.”

According to this thread that was “Conduct unsatisfactory”, which I would have thought would be a bit of a showstopper when it came to being commissioned later n the Army. One can only assume he sorted himself out while in the ranks with the Royal Fusiliers.

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/131200-para-156-tf-regs/

Although perhaps unfortunately it wouldn’t last.

Dover Express, 6th February 1931.

At the Dover Police Court, on Tuesday, Frank Carville (41), 174, Snargate St., ex-Army officer, was charged with having been drunk and disorderly in Snargate St. Det-Sergt. Cadman said that he found the prisoner commiting a nuisance in a door way. Fined 10s.

Dover Express, 13th March 1936.

THE SHOP-LIFTING CHARGE.

Before Mr. Ivan Snell, the Marylebone Magistrate on Tuesday, Frank Carville (47) and Virtue Purchase (40) of Liverpool St., Dover, were charged on remand with stealing a number of articles worth 11s 9d., from Messrs. Selfridges’ Store in Oxford Street.

Detective Sergeant Godding said that both the accused were of good character. Carville joined the Army as a private in 1914, obtained a commission in 1916, and was invalided out with the rank of Captain. He was receiving a pension of £21 7s 9d a month. Purchase was the widow of a Captain and lived with her mother at Dover.

The Magistrate said it was very sad to see the accused in the dock and he had no doubt that they felt the disgrace of it very severely. He had a large number of people before him on this charge, who would have been horrified if anyone had suggested that they would do such a thing. It seemed almost like a disease. He fined each of the accused £5 with 30s. costs.

The 1939 Register records a Frank Carville, born 9th April 1889, who was the first person in a household at 4 Clarence Lawns, Liverpool Street, Dover. However there are four households recorded at that address. Frank was a single man, and has no occupation listed, being recorded as a Disabled Pensioner. I believe there was someone living with him, but their record is officially closed - could that have been the delightfully named Virtue Purchase. (Apparently the apartments at Clarence Lawns had to be demolished because of the damage sustained in the war). https://thedoversociety.co.uk/streets-of-dover/a-c-of-dovers-streets-ancient-and-modern
https://www.channelswimmingdover.org.uk/content/photo/captain-webb-memorial-clarence-lawn-dover

The death of a Frank Carville, aged 55, was recorded in the Tonbridge District of Kent in Q2 1945. The 1945 Probate Calendar lists a Frank Carville, of Park Cottage, Leigh, near Tonbridge, who died on the 4th April 1945. Probate was granted to the Midland Bank Executor and Trustee Company Limited. https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=Carville&yearOfDeath=1945#calendar

Cheers,
Peter

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by PRC
Typo
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A rather sad but perhaps not untypical example of what seemingly happened to more than a few “temporary gentlemen”, who were released from the service in such large numbers that in many cases they appear to have struggled to make a living.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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That is so interesting and yes I agree what a super name Virtue purchase 

this has : is one of the most interesting threads I think that has been on this site 

Thank you …Peter if you would like a copy of this picture please send me your email after all your hard work ! 

 

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1189464281_OfficercomparisonJune1917vs1918.png.dc2cc4a01c49319efb7da2ded29ac944.png

Tackled identifying the Royal Fusiliers officer on the instructor staff with some trepidation – that’s a big regiment with a lot of potential for matches. One thing was also not clear in my mind – while he was definitely a Captain on the early 1918 picture, I wasn’t sure if he was a Lieutenant on the June 1917 picture. May just be the way the light is catching them, but looked like two pips on his shoulder rather than three.

The October 1917 British Army list records the following for officers of the Regular Army Battalions:-

Captain A.A.H Charles, attached Officer Cadet Battalion, seniority 11th January 1915. (Column 960) https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/106327553

Captain E.S. North, attached Officer Cadet Battalion, seniority 2nd December 1915. (Column 960a)
Lieutenant F.A. Hicks, M.C., 4th Battalion, attached Officer Cadet Battalion, seniority 1st September 1915. (Column 961) https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/106327564

And for those officers attached to the Regular Army Battalions of the Royal Fusiliers:-

Captain J. Stuart, attached Officer Cadet Battalion, seniority 19th June 1915. (Column 963d)
Captain T.J.E. Blake, attached Officer Cadet Battalion, seniority 25th October 1915. (Column 963d)
Captain A.E.D. Bliss, attached Officer Cadet Battalion, seniority 16th December 1915. (Column 963d)
Captain J.H. Wylie, attached Officer Cadet Battalion, seniority 20th October 1916. (Column 963d) https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/106327575

Lieutenant E.H. Knott, attached Officer Cadet Battalion, seniority 27th January 1915. (Column 963e)
Lieutenant T. Robinson, attached Officer Cadet Battalion, seniority 2nd June 1915. (Column 963e) https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/106327586

7th Battalion (Extra Reserve)

Captain H.E. Meade, attached Officer Cadet Battalion, seniority 12th August 1914. (Column 965a) https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/106327619

18th Service Battalion (1st Public Schools).

Captain H.E. Bowes-Lyon, attached Officer Cadet Battalion, seniority 27th October 1914. (Column 968a-b). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/106327652

There were two more Lieutenants but both had seniority from July 1917 so were discounted.

To try and eliminate one line of enquiry – that he was a Lieutenant promoted Captain between the two pictures. I then tried to establish when the Lieutenants in the above list were promoted Captain by looking at the November 1918 Army List.

Lieutenant F.E. Hicks – no longer on the strength of the Regular Army. But also no M.C. ribbon visible on either picture. (The October 1917 Army List shows him with an M.C.) Lieutenants E.H. Knott & T. Robinson were still Lieutenants and still attached to an Officer Cadet Battalion.

So looks like the man concerned was a Captain on both pictures. However that still leaves 8 potential matches.

1.     Captain A.A.H Charles. MiC as Allen Aitchison Havelock Charles. Officer records catalogued at the National Archive as Alan Aitchison Havelock Charles. Pre-war officer. Couldn’t find his MiC on Ancestry to confirm address, although there is one at the National Archive. An Allen Aitchison Havelock Charles was born 19th February 1887 and baptised at Bengal on the 22nd April 1887. He would die on the 26th August 1936, aged 49. (GRO death register as Allen A.H. Charles, probate as Sir Allen Aitchison Havelock Charles, baronet, of Otterbourne, Little Easton, Dunmow, Essex).

2.     Captain E.S North. MiC as Eric Stanley North. When he applied for his medals in January 1921 his contact address was Depot Royal Fusiliers, Hounslow. Marriage announcement in the Gentlewoman in December 1919 has his parents living in Kensington and marriage to take place in Earls Court.

3.     Captain J. Stuart. MiC for a John Lachlan Stuart, Captain, and card for MiD as a Temporary Captain and Adjutant with a Service Battalion in 1916. MiC records that he died 23rd October 1918. CWGC has him buried Cambridge City Cemetery and that he was aged 48. Additional info is that he had “Long Service and Good Conduct Medal. Son of Alexander and Agnes Stuart; husband of Margaret Mary Julia Ellen Stuart, of "Inversnaid," Kennington, Ashford, Kent. Served in the South African Campaign with 16th Lancers. Born at Glasgow.”

4.    Captain T.J.E. Blake. MiC as Terence Joseph Edward Blake. Subsequently a Lieutenant Colonel with the Royal Fusiliers and the Essex Regiment.  Received the DSO & MiD. Contact address for medals – 18 Glenmore Road, Belsize Park, (London) NW3. Died 15th December 1921 aged 36 – according to the Chelmsford Chronicle dated 23rd December 1921 he was a 1914 enlistee promoted from the ranks and had been ill for two years as a result of his wounds and war service, to which he finally succumbed.

5.   Captain A.E.D. Bliss. MiC as Arthur Edward Drummond Bliss, later Captain Grenadier Guards. Application for medals December 1922 gives contact address of 21 Holland Park, (London), W11. Would go on to be a composer – Wikipedia has this picture from 1922.

1353794869_Arthur_Bliss_-_photo_by_Herbert_Lambert_-_ca._1922sourcedWikipedia.jpg.1069e2556400ec86d06854fb91175d83.jpg

Image courtesy   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Bliss#/media/File:Arthur_Bliss_-_photo_by_Herbert_Lambert_-_ca._1922.jpg
Also he can be seen in uniform here https://www.warcomposers.co.uk/bliss

6.     Captain J.H. Wylie. MIC as John Howie Wylie. Application for medals October 1921 gives contact address of The Royal Automobile Club, London, SW1. Born 1880 Oldham, married 1903 Marylebone to Elizabeth Churchill Bolton. On the 1911 Census of England and Wales he and Elizabeth were living at 80 Bedford Court Mansions, London WC. He was a Civil Engineer. So far the couple have had no children. He would die on the 11th October 1944 aged 64 – probate calendar for 1945 has him resident at 38 West Cromwell Road, Earls Court, London SW7 but died at a Hotel in Weybridge. Given the career history of the Adjutant, Captain Newman, it may be just a coincidence but a John Howie Wylie, a Civil Engineer born Oldham on the 4th May 1880 started the process to join the Royal Marines Divisional Engineers on the 3rd October 1914. However he was discharged the same day as the attestation paper was never completed. He was described as 5 feet 8 and a half inches tall, with dark brown hair, grey eyes and a dark complexion.

7.    Captain H.E. Meade. MiC as Harry Edward Meade, but can possibly be ruled out – it shows him as a Major with the 18th Officer Cadet Battalion.

1092936108_HarryEdwardMeadeMiCsourcedAncestry.jpg.0087af9731a35c76a07b9498fdc54cce.jpg

Image courtesy Ancestry.
The editions of the Morning Post dated 23th and 24th November November 1909 has a marriage announcement for a Harry Meade, of the Royal Fusiliers to Marion Chadwick at St Georges Church, Pietermaritzburg. Brides’ father was a Judge there. The 1911 Census of England & Wales records a married Harry Meade, who was a Lieutenant in the Royal Fusiliers. He was British by parentage but born Russia, and was recorded as the head of the household at 64 Harley House, Regents Park, London, NW. His wife wasn’t at home on the night of the census, but his 7 month old daughter, Elizabeth, born Mauritius, was, as well as two live in domestic servants. The Wells Journal of Friday the 15th February 1952 records that Major Harry Edward Meade, O.B.E., Royal Fusiliers (Retd), of St. George Castel, Guernsey, who died at Villa Isoletta, Eze, South of France on Thursday week was interred at Chewton Mendip on Friday. A member of an old Chewton Mendip family, (he was the son of the late Mr. and Mrs. A.W. Meade), deceased was 67 years of age. He is survived by his widow and one son.

8.     Captain H.E. Bowes-Lyon. No obvious MiC or officer records. Seniority is dated 27th October 1914. The supplement to the London Gazette dated 26 October 1914 on page 8612 records a number of appointments made to the Public School Battalions, The Royal Fusiliers dated 27th October 1914. One of the Captains of the 1st Battalion was to be a Herbert Ernest Bowes-Lyon. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28952/supplement/8612/data.pdf

According to ancestry he was “Born in Glamis, Angus, Scotland on 6 Oct 1883 to Ernest Bowes-Lyon and Isobel Hester Drummond. Capt. Hubert Ernest Bowes-Lyon married Mary Agnes Smeaton and had 4 children. He passed away on 28 Apr 1959 in Jersey, Channel Islands.” https://www.ancestry.co.uk/genealogy/records/capt-hubert-ernest-bowes-lyon-24-21n120s

He also gets a mini-biography here https://eehe.org.uk/?p=28341

Apparently his first name was usually styled Hubert rather than Herbert.

So in summary

Given that he would have been aged 46/47 when the picture was taken, John Lachlan Stuart seems unlikely. And the two pictures of Arthur Bliss to my mind rule him out.

The association with the 18th Officer Cadet Battalion of Harry Edward Meade probably counts against him. It’s often difficult to tell things like hair colour on a black and whire photograph – so much depends on how the light falls, but the dark brown hair of John Howie Wylie to my mind reduces the chances of him being a match.

Crossing my fingers and hoping @Charles Fair has already identified the relevant cadet Battalion for the last six months of 1917 for some of these officers.

Otherwise I’m afraid it is likely to remain a mystery.

Cheers,
Peter

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That’s very interesting …what a cross section of people eh …in your last write up 

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21 hours ago, PRC said:

Tackled identifying the Royal Fusiliers officer on the instructor staff with some trepidation – that’s a big regiment with a lot of potential for matches. One thing was also not clear in my mind – while he was definitely a Captain on the early 1918 picture, I wasn’t sure if he was a Lieutenant on the June 1917 picture. May just be the way the light is catching them, but looked like two pips on his shoulder rather than three.

The October 1917 British Army list records the following ....

And for those officers attached to the Regular Army Battalions of the Royal Fusiliers:-

...
Captain T.J.E. Blake, attached Officer Cadet Battalion, seniority 25th October 1915. (Column 963d)
Captain A.E.D. Bliss, attached Officer Cadet Battalion, seniority 16th December 1915. (Column 963d)

7th Battalion (Extra Reserve)

Captain H.E. Meade, attached Officer Cadet Battalion, seniority 12th August 1914. (Column 965a) https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/106327619

....

4.    Captain T.J.E. Blake. MiC as Terence Joseph Edward Blake. Subsequently a Lieutenant Colonel with the Royal Fusiliers and the Essex Regiment.  Received the DSO & MiD. Contact address for medals – 18 Glenmore Road, Belsize Park, (London) NW3. Died 15th December 1921 aged 36 – according to the Chelmsford Chronicle dated 23rd December 1921 he was a 1914 enlistee promoted from the ranks and had been ill for two years as a result of his wounds and war service, to which he finally succumbed.

5.   Captain A.E.D. Bliss. MiC as Arthur Edward Drummond Bliss, later Captain Grenadier Guards. Application for medals December 1922 gives contact address of 21 Holland Park, (London), W11. Would go on to be a composer – Wikipedia has this picture from 1922.

Image courtesy   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Bliss#/media/File:Arthur_Bliss_-_photo_by_Herbert_Lambert_-_ca._1922.jpg
Also he can be seen in uniform here https://www.warcomposers.co.uk/bliss

7.    Captain H.E. Meade. MiC as Harry Edward Meade, but can possibly be ruled out – it shows him as a Major with the 18th Officer Cadet Battalion.

...

The editions of the Morning Post dated 23th and 24th November November 1909 has a marriage announcement for a Harry Meade, of the Royal Fusiliers to Marion Chadwick at St Georges Church, Pietermaritzburg. Brides’ father was a Judge there. The 1911 Census of England & Wales records a married Harry Meade, who was a Lieutenant in the Royal Fusiliers. He was British by parentage but born Russia, and was recorded as the head of the household at 64 Harley House, Regents Park, London, NW. His wife wasn’t at home on the night of the census, but his 7 month old daughter, Elizabeth, born Mauritius, was, as well as two live in domestic servants. The Wells Journal of Friday the 15th February 1952 records that Major Harry Edward Meade, O.B.E., Royal Fusiliers (Retd), of St. George Castel, Guernsey, who died at Villa Isoletta, Eze, South of France on Thursday week was interred at Chewton Mendip on Friday. A member of an old Chewton Mendip family, (he was the son of the late Mr. and Mrs. A.W. Meade), deceased was 67 years of age. He is survived by his widow and one son.

 

The association with the 18th Officer Cadet Battalion of Harry Edward Meade probably counts against him. It’s often difficult to tell things like hair colour on a black and whire photograph – so much depends on how the light falls, but the dark brown hair of John Howie Wylie to my mind reduces the chances of him being a match.

Crossing my fingers and hoping @Charles Fair has already identified the relevant cadet Battalion for the last six months of 1917 for some of these officers.

Peter, that's very brave to have a go at trying to work that one out.  I'm still in the midst of building a database of OCB commanding officers and instructors.  I'm focusing mainly on COs and Company Commanders, but have others too.  Its largely being compiled from OCB journals and I have yet to systematically cross check against the LG and AL.

However, I can confirm that Blake, Bliss and Meade were all on the staff of No. 18 OCB.  I dont yet have the others anywhere.  Meade was 2 i/c and a Coy Comd.  Blake was a Coy Comd, and Bliss was an instructor and had a platoon.  There is a little in Bliss' memoir and he also has some letters in the Dent Collection in the University Library Cambridge.

Edited by Charles Fair
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Pages from the 18 OCB roll

888A7AFF-36B6-47DF-9ED1-4677C497785F.jpeg

8DA61A66-0C41-4A32-92F5-A4AE35C350DD.jpeg

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1 hour ago, Charles Fair said:

However, I can confirm that Blake, Bliss and Meade were all on the staff of No. 18 OCB. 

Thanks for checking Charles.

Seems likely that of the 8 candidates, (and I’m not claiming they are the only candidates,:) ), it appears Terence Joseph Edward Blake, Arthur Edward Drummond Bliss and Harry Edward Meade can pretty much be discounted.

John Howie Wylie can probably be sidelined on the basis of physical description.

John Lachlan Stuart looks doubtful based on his age.

That leaves Allen Aitchison Havelock Charles, Eric Stanley North and Hubert Ernest Bowes-Lyon  - all of whom I couldn’t find a picture of online.

The father of Allen Aitchison Havelock Charles was the first Baronet, Havelock Charles, (or more fully Major-General Sir Richard Henry Havelock Charles, 1st Baronet, GCVO, KCSI (10 March 1858 – 27 October 1934) who was a British doctor, and Serjeant Surgeon to King George V.) https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Havelock_Charles&oldid=956169796#Family

Wikipedia have this picture of Havelock Charles, stated to date from the 1920’s –

685178162_Charles_Havelock._Photograph._Wellcome_V0026523sourcedWikipedia.jpg.b737dd4eab448125368cf59e18278bbc.jpg

By https://wellcomeimages.org/indexplus/obf_images/25/3c/518a46bcaa751b49b76b715de045.jpgGallery: https://wellcomeimages.org/indexplus/image/V0026523.htmlWellcome Collection gallery (2018-03-27): https://wellcomecollection.org/works/yz93fw7x CC-BY-4.0, CC BY 4.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=36579987

Wouldn’t want to read too much into it, but possibly a slight resemblance – could this be how the man in the OCB photographs might have looked when he was 20-30 years older?

Hubert Ernest Bowes-Lyon would have had some sort of family relationship to the late Queen Mother. News reports on his death in April 1959 refer to him as a cousin of Queen Elizabeth . His father was Ernest Bowes-Lyon, who in turn was the son 13th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne. Ernest would die on the 27th December 1891 at the age of 33 – when Hubert was barely 8 and his youngest sister Ernestine had only been born 8 days earlier. https://www.thepeerage.com/p238.htm#i2371

Ernest, Second British Secretary of Legation at Belgrade, H.M. Diplomatic Service, died of his injuries after being thrown from his horse while out riding. There is an accompanying photograph but it appears to be of him as a child and lacks detail of the facial features. http://www.19thcenturyphotos.com/The-Hon.-Ernest-Bowes-Lyons-127012.htm

There are many pictures online of members of the Bowes-Lyon family and there seems to be a strong tradition of military service. However for every one who looks a little bit like the man in the OCB pictures, there is another who doesn’t.

Eric Stanley North continues to elude me.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited by PRC
Typo
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The Royal Fusiliers officer is the chap on the left of the trio in both photos.  I’m a bit confused as your labels are placed under another fellow who’s not a fusilier?  If it’s the fellow sans hairy upper lip then that might be significant as it was still unusual at that time for a professional military man to go without moustache even though it was no longer regulation after 1916.  Conversely some of the new generation bright young things apparently took delight in bucking what was increasingly becoming seen as a stuffy tradition.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m a bit confused as your labels are placed under another fellow who’s not a fusilier?

The labels were not intended to signify any particular individual out of the three. Apologies for any confusion caused.

Cheers,
Peter

 

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7 minutes ago, PRC said:

The labels were not intended to signify any particular individual out of the three. Apologies for any confusion caused.

Cheers,
Peter

 

Understood Peter.  Like you I had wondered about Bowes-Lyon as a potential candidate, but comparing your excellent image of him as an older man I’m confident it’s not the same chap as the moustachioed Royal Fusilier in the two OCB photos.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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  • 1 month later...

Hi All I'm new to this!

I have been trying to track down a relative of mine who ( according to his service records) was in the 19 OCB/OTB at Pirbright.

His name is Donald Fraser he was posted to 9th Royal Sussex on completion of his Officer Training he was awarded a MC for his action on 22 March 1918 at Hesbecourt (Hervilly Wood).

 

I am sure he is 8th person in from the right on the rear rank. His signature loosely resembles a signature on his attestation form.  the letters D and F particularly.

Can any of you tell me if anyone has mentioned his name or identified him previously or has any further information about his time there.

 

Best regards

Neil

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On 27/09/2021 at 19:47, PRC said:

I think the only one so far was this one from the top. It's to the left of what looks to be W. Neill.

Cheers,
Peter

I think this relates to Donald Fraser loosely similar to his attestation signature .I think this guy is 8th from right on the rear rank.

 

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11 minutes ago, Neil M Clark said:

I think this relates to Donald Fraser loosely similar to his attestation signature .I think this guy is 8th from right on the rear rank.

 

1382825657_DonaldFrasersignature1914.jpg.eb86d244fd45117cd4bb270c4176b5d4.jpg

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10 minutes ago, Neil M Clark said:

I think this relates to Donald Fraser loosely similar to his attestation signature .I think this guy is 8th from right on the rear rank.

Hi @Neil M Clark and welcome to the forum.

There were three close ups of the signature I was referring to posted on the 29th September

On 29/09/2021 at 12:52, arantxa said:

39516CD3-1779-4EA6-87A2-2BCF980778AB.jpeg

51626C62-572A-41EE-8644-D4B5B3344512.jpeg

E45D83A0-FC25-44BC-97EB-5025A9356ED9.jpeg

5B78454B-A693-4979-BF4E-FC503CFA2386.jpeg

394D9FA8-4AE1-49CB-9BCC-8E6F7CB6AE45.jpeg

May be easier to make a comparison with those.

We don't have too many definates, just a lot of individuals commissioned at the end of June 1917 whose names potentially look likely matches for the signatures.

There is nothing on your mans' Medal index Card directly helpful other than he didn't land in France until January 1918, so do you know when he was commissioned? (Sorry - now heading out otherwise I'd look it up!)

Cheers,
Peter

 

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