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Remembered Today:

19th officer cadet I’d love if any one recognised any names


arantxa

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No worries ill come back to you trying to get a photo.Researching his records saysTo 19 OCB 5/7/17. Appointed 2nd Lt Sussex Regiment on 30/10/17.Arrived Etaples Base , France 30/1/18. Joined 9th Battalion 4/2/18.

 I have his service records. And unit War diaries relating to his time in 9th Royal Sussex Regt including his time when his action was for his MC.

Thanks. Catch up later. Neil

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2 hours ago, Neil M Clark said:

Researching his records saysTo 19 OCB 5/7/17.

The most likely reason for the group picture would appear to be a 'graduation' of a particular batch of officer cadets from one of the Companys of the Battalion at the end of June 1917. The possibility has been raised that it might be a group at various points in the course - although to me that would reduce the appeal of individuals wanting to autograph the picture. Similarly a picture taken at the start of a group joining the course could leave you with individuals who did not graduate.

So if it is the group that graduated at the end of June, your man may be one of those who came in to take their place, rather than present in the picture. Of course if he is present then all bets are off as to what this picture represents and who is shown :)

More likely the only individuals relevant to Duncan Frasers' time with the unit are the C.O. and the Adjutant - the other instructors would only probably be relevant if he was posted to the same Company. There is another picture in the thread that is most likely from early spring 1918 and appears to show a completely different group of NCO instructors, so probably from a different company.

The good thing about finding two pictures, both apparently in the same setting, would seem to indicate they were a routine part of the process. So if he's not on this, there may be another one out there of his group graduation.

Cheers,
Peter

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It’s a long standing tradition going back generations in the Army for group photos to [sometimes] be signed by those ‘passing out’ (qualifying - the term graduating being more civilian other than from Sandhurst) at the end of a training course.  Even in the days of digital photography this tradition stands, so I think that Peter’s interpretation is correct.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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18 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s a long standing tradition going back generations in the Army for group photos to be signed by those ‘passing out’ (qualifying - the term graduating being more civilian other than from Sandhurst) at the end of a training course.  Even in the days of digital photography this tradition stands, so I think that Peter’s interpretation is correct.

Thank you for this. Much appreciated.

Just looking at his records. Minute sheet numbered 2 states...Submitted by S.D. 3? on List 1972 appointed to a temporary commission as 2nd Lt. Posted  Sussex Regiment....See London Gazette dated 29.11.17.

M.S.1 (K.)

31.112117?

Thanks to you and Peter for your inputs.

Neil

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1 hour ago, Neil M Clark said:

Thank you for this. Much appreciated.

Just looking at his records. Minute sheet numbered 2 states...Submitted by S.D. 3? on List 1972 appointed to a temporary commission as 2nd Lt. Posted  Sussex Regiment....See London Gazette dated 29.11.17.

M.S.1 (K.)

31.112117?

Thanks to you and Peter for your inputs.

Neil

Neil, just to be clear it’s the photos themselves that always took place, but the signatures were an optional thing that sometimes took place.  It’s important that I emphasise that.

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9 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Neil, just to be clear it’s the photos themselves that always took place, but the signatures were an optional thing that sometimes took place.  It’s important that I emphasise that.

OK thanks for that. I found a couple more signatures in his service records. I think i may have a photo to compare him with too. Will post them when i can. Look forward to seeing what people think. Thanks... N

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Hi again 

Re the signatures. am assuming that if each person wanted a signed photograph then most of them would have to have signed each persons photograph? That's a lot of signing! If it is Donalds signature its not a particularly well written effort! 

Re the photograph i think it looks like a reasonable likeness to the man 8th from right on the rear rank. What do you guys think? My wife thinks I am clutching at straws!!

Re the London gazette.....i cant seem to see anything on search engines re London Gazette for 29 November 1917 as mentioned on the minute sheet (Register 179147/1) in his service records (PRO WO339/92892 Donald Fraser)

 

Donald Fraser signature 2nd example.jpg

Donald Fraser circa 1917.pdf

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2 hours ago, Neil M Clark said:

Hi again 

Re the signatures. am assuming that if each person wanted a signed photograph then most of them would have to have signed each persons photograph? That's a lot of signing! If it is Donalds signature its not a particularly well written effort! 

Re the photograph i think it looks like a reasonable likeness to the man 8th from right on the rear rank. What do you guys think? My wife thinks I am clutching at straws!!

Re the London gazette.....i cant seem to see anything on search engines re London Gazette for 29 November 1917 as mentioned on the minute sheet (Register 179147/1) in his service records (PRO WO339/92892 Donald Fraser)

 

Donald Fraser signature 2nd example.jpg

Donald Fraser circa 1917.pdf 256.28 kB · 2 downloads

In my experience and past examples that I’ve known of there was usually just the one photo with all signatures, usually as an item to be left for display.  That’s not to say this might not be different but as you’ve pointed out it was a lot of time consuming effort to replicate the process on all the photos.  My guess is that just the one copy was signed, e.g. I’ve seen similar arrangements on formal military dinner menus, but rarely did every individual sign even when there was plenty of time because the menu was passed leisurely around the table.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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4 hours ago, Neil M Clark said:

Re the photograph i think it looks like a reasonable likeness to the man 8th from right on the rear rank. What do you guys think? My wife thinks I am clutching at straws!!

Hi Neil,

The identifications that have been put forward for the signatures are only probables, but the consistant feature is men who finished the course at the end of June 1917. So even just in that context itself, it's looking very unlikely that Donald Fraser is present.

As for the similarity of likeness, (and if I've identified the "right" eighth man from the right at the back), I'd have to say it's superficial. But of course if it is him, then part of the difference could be down to physical maturing, (do we know when your picture was taken), as well as angle, the way he is holding himself in the group and maybe he didn't like having his picture taken at Pirbright on that particular day and so is scowling!

1478850728_DonaldFrasercomparison.png.f8b65ca7f888e791e1665df3059606d8.png

Eyebrows, eyelids, ears, nose and lips all seem slightly different between the two. I'd have to say I'd side with your good lady, although I hope it doesn't lead to me being cited as the other man in the divorce case :)

As to the signature, then the two you have posted are relatively consistant and unlike any of those present on the group picture.

1180375644_DonaldFrasersignature1.jpg.393056131e5705842e29241c137e443b.jpg

2103566050_DonaldFrasersignatue2.jpg.378db950adc2db72d22ff46e833bc98b.jpg

I don't see any resemblance between those and the signature you cited as possibly comparable.

730799237_W.LDaysignature.jpeg.a28e5e4d51cfeba50ecd62203ddfbda3.jpeg

Apologies if I've picked the wrong officer cadet and the wrong signature to make a comparison, and of course other pairs of eyes may come to different conclusions.

Hope that helps,
Peter

Edited by PRC
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1 hour ago, PRC said:

Hi Neil,

The identifications that have been put forward for the signatures are only probables, but the consistant feature is men who finished the course at the end of June 1917. So even just in that context itself, it's looking very unlikely that Donald Fraser is present.

As for the similarity of likeness, (and if I've identified the "right" eighth man from the right at the back), I'd have to say it's superficial. But of course if it is him, then part of the difference could be down to physical maturing, (do we know when your picture was taken), as well as angle, the way he is holding himself in the group and maybe he didn't like having his picture taken at Pirbright on that particular day and so is scowling!

1478850728_DonaldFrasercomparison.png.f8b65ca7f888e791e1665df3059606d8.png

Eyebrows, eyelids, ears, nose and lips all seem slightly different between the two. I'd have to say I'd side with your good lady, although I hope it doesn't lead to me being cited as the other man in the divorce case :)

As to the signature, then the two you have posted are relatively consistant and unlike any of those present on the group picture.

1180375644_DonaldFrasersignature1.jpg.393056131e5705842e29241c137e443b.jpg

2103566050_DonaldFrasersignatue2.jpg.378db950adc2db72d22ff46e833bc98b.jpg

I don't see any resemblance between those and the signature you cited as possibly comparable.

730799237_W.LDaysignature.jpeg.a28e5e4d51cfeba50ecd62203ddfbda3.jpeg

Apologies if I've picked the wrong officer cadet and the wrong signature to make a comparison, and of course other pairs of eyes may come to different conclusions.

Hope that helps,
Peter

Hi Peter No worries. Nice to actually have an objective opinion. I have no access to any other photographs when he was in uniform. I will ask around and see if any come to light.

Thanks for everyones contributions.  I'll keep in touch and follow how you all get on with the OCBs.

All the best.

Neil

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  • 4 months later...
On 03/10/2021 at 21:50, PRC said:

Twigg.jpg.78ad8778048ec173f1c1fa4e0cb5b044.jpg

H.Twigg – Cadet Harry Twigg gazetted Temporary Second Lieutenant in the supplement dated 17th July 1917, Page 7201 Regular Army Manchester Regiment https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30187/supplement/7201/

There is a MiC for a 2nd Lieutenant Harry Twigg. Manchester Regiment, who qualified for the Victory Medal and British War Medal only. No date of entry, first theatre or contact details.

The October 1917 British Army List records him as attached to the establishment of the Regular Army Battalions of the Manchester Regiment but serving with the 19th Battalion. (See column 1403e). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/106331733

The 19th Battalion had been in France since November 1915. It would be disbanded on the 6th February 1918. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/manchester-regiment/

Battalion War Diary.

23rd August 1917. Ridge Defences WYTSCHAETE (Left Support Battalion Subsector).

Battn. supplied Working Party 1) 1Off 75 OR to RE 2) 2 platoons to Rt Bn in line for carrying 3) wiring party 1Off 90 OR on support trenches of Rt Line Bn.
2/Lt H. TWIGG, 2/Lt G. LEECH and 2/Lt C.H. SPENCER joined Bn for duty.

16th September 1917. 2nd Lt Twigg admitted to hospital.

6th October 1917. Right Line Battalion Subsection, Ridge Defences WYTESCHATE.

11.55 p.m. Our Advanced Right Front Coy Hdqrs in O29 (a) 5.3 was raided by an enemy bombing party of about 20. They evidently entered our position between Nos 3+ 4 Posts + were not detected  until they reached the dugout occupied by Coy HQrs. They then threw several bombs + attempted to blow in the dug-out, wounding 2nd Lt TWIGG + 4 O.R. The party withdrew on 2nd Lt Twigg rushing out + firing his revolver. Our M.G’s were turned on the enemy before they reached their lines, without any apparent result. No prisoners were taken by either side.

No subsequent mention of 2nd Lt Twigg. At disbandment A & B Companys went to the 16th Battalion, and C & D Companys to the 17th Battalion. However there is a list of officers postings on the 6th February1918 and Harry Twigg is not included.

On the November 1918 British Army List he is simply shown as a Second Lieutenant with seniority from the 27th June 1917, attached to the establishment of the Regular Army Battalions of the Manchester Regiment. (See column 1403j) https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123103905

Wells.jpg.badedd42356001133bd364f3689534b9.jpg

Previous guess -  Old Wells

The Supplement to the London Gazette, page 17 July, 1917, page 7200, has a Cadet Norman Wells with a Temporary Commission from the 27th June 1917 in the Regular Army, Lancashire Fusiliers. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30187/supplement/7200/

There is no “O. Wells” recorded in the index to the October 1917 British Army List. For now I can only assume that “Old” Wells was a nickname.

No obvious MiC for a 2nd Lieutenant Wells serving with the Lancashire Fusiliers – I suspect checking officers papers will be of little help as the signature will be different.

Soldiers Died in the Great War has a Second Lieutenant Norman Wells who died of wounds on the 25th September 1917. He was on the strength of the 1st&2nd Battalions, Lancashire Fusiliers, but attached to the 16th Battalion.

CWGC adds that he is buried Zuydcoote Military Cemetery in France, but has no age or additional family information. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/617835/NORMAN WELLS/

The October 1917 British Army List confirms that the 2nd Lieutenant N. Wells with seniority from the 27th June 1917 and who was posted to the the Regular Army Battalions of the Lancashire Regiment, (the 1st and 2nd), was attached to the 16th Battalion. (See column 1084d). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/106328774

The 1917 Probate Calendar records that Norman Wells, of 52, Brompton Road, Rusholme, Manchester, a temporary second lieutenant attached 16th (service) battalion Lancashire Fusiliers died 25 Septembere 1917 at 36 Casualty Clearing Station France or Belgium. Probate was granted at the Manchester Court on the 20th October 1917 to John Charles Whitehurst, barristers clerk. https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=Wells&yearOfDeath=1917&page=3#calendar

Four notices appear in the Births, Marriages and Deaths column of the edition of the Manchester Evening News dated 28th September 1917.

WELLS. – Sec. Lieut. NORMAN WELLS, Lancashire Fusiliers, who died of wounds Sept. 25, 1917. Deeply regretted and sadly missed by PEGGY.
WELLS. - Sec. Lieut. NORMAN WELLS, who died of wounds Sept. 25, 1917, age 25. Deeply regretted byhis sister and brother, DOROTHY and GEORGE.
WELLS. - Sec. Lieut. NORMAN WELLS, who died of wounds Sept. 25, 1917. Deeply regretted by Mr. and Mrs. ALEXANDER (mother and dad) and FAMILY. 280, Great Western-street, Moss Side.
WELLS. – Sec. Lieut. NORMAN WELLS, who died of wounds Sept. 25, 1917. Deeply regretted by AUNTY, UNCLE, and DORIS. 2 Victoria-street, Rusholme.

In the absence of a picture of Norman Wells so that a comparison can be made, for now there is no obvious way to rule Norman in or out as a candidate for “Old Wells”.

Cheers,
Peter

Hi

I don't know how to contact you but Harry Twigg was my Grandfather. I have his red RWF jacket with the same signature inside. His name was Henry Twigg but he seems to have been called Harry in a few places

Regards

Foxy. 

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35 minutes ago, Foxy said:

I don't know how to contact you but Harry Twigg was my Grandfather. I have his red RWF jacket with the same signature inside. His name was Henry Twigg but he seems to have been called Harry in a few places

Hi @Foxy and welcome to the forum.

Checking back to what I originally wrote, the records I identified related to a man commissioned into the Manchester Regiment. I didn't come across any reference to any service with the Royal Welsh Fusiliers. As a wartime commission it's unlikely that he would have purchased a red jacket, although there would have been nothing to stop him. Of course if he stayed in post-war or served in the Territorial Force then it might have been appropriate.

Unfortunately the Manchester Regiment man didn't apply for his medals until 1939, so there are no contact details recorded on his Medal Index Card. That might have helped tie him to an address you were familiar with.

Could you share some more details about "your" Henry Twigg to see if a link can be established to this graduating class of 19 OCB. At the end of the day the identification of the signature as Harry Twigg was my best guess and I'm very capable of being wrong - just look at some of the earlier posts in this thread :)

In a similar vein, is there anyone in the picture who is potentially a match for your grandfather?

Cheers,
Peter

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I suspect it might be a mess dress jacket.  They were optional items during the war and, like all officers’ uniforms, bespoke and provided on demand by gentlemens’ outfitters/tailors.  Some officers posted for duty on the home establishment do seem to have commissioned mess dress, depending upon the job that they were doing.  The most likely being those employed in regional command headquarters and regimental depots. 

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Hi PRC and Frogsmile, thanks for the feedback.  I only spotted the response today so sorry I didn't respond sooner.

I totally understand your caution and I agree we need to dig deeper to resolve this but I instantly recognised the signature, rather than needing to study it... I think you may agree they are extremely similar. However, his signature on my parents marriage certificate (also attached) is a little different but it was written with a nib.  The script is a very traditional in style and almost identical (for example) to the registrars script on the marriage certificate!... therefore I do not think it is certain by any means.

I have attached an image of the signature in the jacket but it is not easy to obtain a clear shot with a phone camera, its actually clearer as a more distant photo than close up.

I also attach some images from the jacket -I found one of the references you quoted when I looked up H Twigg RWF but as I have never researched military info before I have not definitively identified him in the records yet.  He was christened Henry but there are references in the census and elsewhere as being know as 'Harry'.

I have many photos of him older but nothing in his youth - the headshot attached is a detail from a 1935 photo.

I am afraid I do not have any further information re his service record but he was born in 1882/1883

20220328_100134.jpg

2022_03_28 09_57 Office Lens (2).jpg

2022_03_23 11_52 Office Lens (2).jpg

2022_03_23 11_45 Office Lens (2).jpg

1365 (2).jpg

2022_03_25 12_58 Office Lens (4).jpg

2022_03_23 11_46 Office Lens (2).jpg

Edited by Foxy
photo added
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5 hours ago, Foxy said:

Hi PRC and Frogsmile, thanks for the feedback.  I only spotted the response today so sorry I didn't respond sooner.

I totally understand your caution and I agree we need to dig deeper to resolve this but I instantly recognised the signature, rather than needing to study it... I think you may agree they are extremely similar. However, his signature on my parents marriage certificate (also attached) is a little different but it was written with a nib.  The script is a very traditional in style and almost identical (for example) to the registrars script on the marriage certificate!... therefore I do not think it is certain by any means.

I have attached an image of the signature in the jacket but it is not easy to obtain a clear shot with a phone camera, its actually clearer as a more distant photo than close up.

I also attach some images from the jacket -I found one of the references you quoted when I looked up H Twigg RWF but as I have never researched military info before I have not definitively identified him in the records yet.  He was christened Henry but there are references in the census and elsewhere as being know as 'Harry'.

I have many photos of him older but nothing in his youth - the headshot attached is a detail from a 1935 photo.

I am afraid I do not have any further information re his service record but he was born in 1882/1883

20220328_100134.jpg

2022_03_28 09_57 Office Lens (2).jpg

2022_03_23 11_52 Office Lens (2).jpg

2022_03_23 11_45 Office Lens (2).jpg

1365 (2).jpg

2022_03_25 12_58 Office Lens (4).jpg

2022_03_23 11_46 Office Lens (2).jpg

The jacket is actually a “tunic” of 1913 pattern Foxy and it is of other ranks type, so of course along with his rank of sergeant it predates his being commissioned as an officer.  The badge above his stripes indicates that he was a qualified 1st Class battalion scout (trained in covert movement across country, observation and the gathering of visual intelligence).

NB.  There were two types of scarlet upper garment, the fitted full dress ‘tunic’, made of superior quality ‘cloth’ (as it was described in regulations) and the loose fitting, undress ‘frock’ for home service, which was made of coarse serge.  The former had white piping at the base of the collar (if P1913) and down the front join, and the latter had flapped pockets in its skirt and no piping on the front join.  The latter garment was withdrawn at home from 1902, and the former placed ostensibly in suspended animation (but never reintroduced) in 1914.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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23 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The jacket is actually a “tunic” of 1913 pattern Foxy and it is of other ranks pattern, so of course along with his rank of sergeant it predates his being commissioned as an officer.  The badge above his stripes indicates that he was a qualified 1st Class battalion scout (trained in covert movement across country, observation and the gathering of visual intelligence).

As a scout-sniper in my own service I wore a rather different trade badge with an S above crossed rifles, but I'm familiar with the "old" version of a compass rose. I've never, however, seen the variant shown here with a cross at the bottom. I presume that this is what distinguishes a "1st Class" scout?

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4 minutes ago, 6RRF said:

As a scout-sniper in my own service I wore a rather different trade badge with an S above crossed rifles, but I'm familiar with the "old" version of a compass rose. I've never, however, seen the variant shown here with a cross at the bottom. I presume that this is what distinguishes a "1st Class" scout?

Yes it’s the cross that signifies 1st class.

It’s not a compass rose though, but a representation of the fleur-de-lis.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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20 hours ago, 6RRF said:

Live and learn. Thanks.

It was designed and introduced via the enthusiasm of Baden Powell, who as a 13th Hussars officer took action to train some of his own men to be more like the Boers, and other plainsmen, and so more skilful in their use of ground for covert movement and surveillance.  His initiative eventually led to adoption of the special skills pan-army (many soldiers were from urban backgrounds) and the badge he selected he also later used for his Boy “Scout” Movement, which similarly encouraged the same initiative and self reliance.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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@Foxy

The 1913 pattern would make it likely he was a pre-war-regular, and having reached the rank of Sergeant almost certainly one who had a number of years service under his belt. Peacetime soldiering meant that promotion was obtained by passing exams and then waiting ones turn for a vacancy to be created by promotion \ "retirement", (an other rank needed 21 years service to get a pension).

Regular Army enlistment was split between a short term enlistment, (12 years) and a long term enlistment, (21 years). The short term enlistment was in turn split between a period in the colours, (i.e. in uniform, in barracks, subject to military discipline 24/7, receiving full pay & board) and a period in the reserves, (back in civvy street, subject to military discipline only when attending refresher training, receiving half-pay, liable to immediate recall in the event of a national emergency such as war). The most common splits were 7 years in the colours & 5 in the reserves, 3 and 9 and 9 and 3, although other options were available. Once started, a man could opt to spend more time in the colours and less in the reserves, or even switch to a long term enlistment. The whole of a long term enlistment was spent in the colours.

Reason for going into details is that if he was in the Reservist part of his enlistment I wonder if a 1913 pattern jacket would have been specifically allocated to him - @FROGSMILE may have some wise words on that matter. And if he wasn't a reservist then he was still in the colours, which given his rank would mean there would be a very high chance that he would turn up on the 1911 Census of England & Wales. The scope of that Census included British Army Garrisons around the world. Only Ireland & Scotland, with their own censuses were out of scope. So unless he was travelling between postings or stationed in one of those countries I'd expect to find him - but have so far drawn a blank looking for a Harry \ Henry Twigg born c1882/83 plus or minus a couple of years, (although I only have very limited access to genealogy sources at the moment). There could be all sorts of reasons for my inability to find him, but hopefully others will take up the challenge.

So if we have a Sergeant Harry \ Henry Twigg serving in the Royal Welsh Fusiliers in 1913/14 and a 1st Class Scout I would have expected him to have been likely to have gone out to a Theatre of War with one of the Regular Army Battalions very early on. The 1st Battalion were stationed in Malta at the outbreak of the war, but returned to England before moving on to Belgium, landing on the 7th October 1914. The 2nd Battalion landed at Rouen on the 11th August 1914. Or he could have been posted as a trainer to the 3rd Battalion or as part of a training cadre to a wartime only service battalion, and then gone overseas with them from 1915 onwards. Men who served overseas were entitled to Service Medals, (home service only men weren't), and when these medals were being authorised towards the end of the conflict and shortly afterwards, the clerks at the relevant records office raised a Medal Index Card, (MiC) to keep track of the paperwork and related correspondence. Unfortunately I'm not seeing a likely MiC for a Harry or Henry Twigg serving with the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, the nearest in rank being a Company Quartermaster Sergeant 6886 George Twigg who landed in France with the 2nd Battalion on the 11th August 1914. George would be killed in action on the 20th August 1916, aged 32.

And widening the search to the whole British Army, other than our 2nd Lieutenant with the Manchester Regiment, the only other candidate rankwise  is a Acting Sergeant G4643 Henry Twigg serving with the Middlesex Regiment - however he was released in 1917 having reached the age of 41, which would appear to rule him out.

Of course your Harry Twigg may have been retained in the UK having been identified as a good trainer. By late 1916 the Army were actively seeking out such experienced NCO's with the potential to become officers, routinely sending out questionnaires to Commanding Officers asking for reasons why they shouldn't be considered for a commission rather than reasons why they should. But the likelihood would be that such men would be sponsored by the regiment who would then take them back on successful completion of the course - even if they were then attached elsewhere.

As an officer Harry Twigg would have had to apply for his service medal entitlement. Usually the Medal Index Card for officers will therefore have a contact address on the back - but unfortunately his is blank.

Acquiring a copy of the officer papers for Harry Twigg would seem the most obvious route to resolve this - unfortunately the National Archive records of WW1 officers isn't bringing up any matches. A few years back the Ministry of Defence did release a list of files they still held for men born before 1901 and who continued to serve after 1920 - but there is no obvious candidate for him there either.

So did your Harry Twigg marry or were any children born during the Great War period - there could be information on the related certificates that will tell you more about his rank and unit?

And is it known for sure that he was commissioned?

Cheers,
Peter

 

Edited by PRC
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19 hours ago, PRC said:

@Foxy

The 1913 pattern would make it likely he was a pre-war-regular, and having reached the rank of Sergeant almost certainly one who had a number of years service under his belt. Peacetime soldiering meant that promotion was obtained by passing exams and then waiting ones turn for a vacancy to be created by promotion \ "retirement", (an other rank needed 21 years service to get a pension).

Regular Army enlistment was split between a short term enlistment, (12 years) and a long term enlistment, (21 years). The short term enlistment was in turn split between a period in the colours, (i.e. in uniform, in barracks, subject to military discipline 24/7, receiving full pay & board) and a period in the reserves, (back in civvy street, subject to military discipline only when attending refresher training, receiving half-pay, liable to immediate recall in the event of a national emergency such as war). The most common splits were 7 years in the colours & 5 in the reserves, 3 and 9 and 9 and 3, although other options were available. Once started, a man could opt to spend more time in the colours and less in the reserves, or even switch to a long term enlistment. The whole of a long term enlistment was spent in the colours.

Reason for going into details is that if he was in the Reservist part of his enlistment I wonder if a 1913 pattern jacket would have been specifically allocated to him - @FROGSMILE may have some wise words on that matter. And if he wasn't a reservist then he was still in the colours, which given his rank would mean there would be a very high chance that he would turn up on the 1911 Census of England & Wales. The scope of that Census included British Army Garrisons around the world. Only Ireland & Scotland, with their own censuses were out of scope. So unless he was travelling between postings or stationed in one of those countries I'd expect to find him - but have so far drawn a blank looking for a Harry \ Henry Twigg born c1882/83 plus or minus a couple of years, (although I only have very limited access to genealogy sources at the moment). There could be all sorts of reasons for my inability to find him, but hopefully others will take up the challenge.

So if we have a Sergeant Harry \ Henry Twigg serving in the Royal Welsh Fusiliers in 1913/14 and a 1st Class Scout I would have expected him to have been likely to have gone out to a Theatre of War with one of the Regular Army Battalions very early on. The 1st Battalion were stationed in Malta at the outbreak of the war, but returned to England before moving on to Belgium, landing on the 7th October 1914. The 2nd Battalion landed at Rouen on the 11th August 1914. Or he could have been posted as a trainer to the 3rd Battalion or as part of a training cadre to a wartime only service battalion, and then gone overseas with them from 1915 onwards. Men who served overseas were entitled to Service Medals, (home service only men weren't), and when these medals were being authorised towards the end of the conflict and shortly afterwards, the clerks at the relevant records office raised a Medal Index Card, (MiC) to keep track of the paperwork and related correspondence. Unfortunately I'm not seeing a likely MiC for a Harry or Henry Twigg serving with the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, the nearest in rank being a Company Quartermaster Sergeant 6886 George Twigg who landed in France with the 2nd Battalion on the 11th August 1914. George would be killed in action on the 20th August 1916, aged 32.

And widening the search to the whole British Army, other than our 2nd Lieutenant with the Manchester Regiment, the only other candidate rankwise  is a Acting Sergeant G4643 Henry Twigg serving with the Middlesex Regiment - however he was released in 1917 having reached the age of 41, which would appear to rule him out.

Of course your Harry Twigg may have been retained in the UK having been identified as a good trainer. By late 1916 the Army were actively seeking out such experienced NCO's with the potential to become officers, routinely sending out questionnaires to Commanding Officers asking for reasons why they shouldn't be considered for a commission rather than reasons why they should. But the likelihood would be that such men would be sponsored by the regiment who would then take them back on successful completion of the course - even if they were then attached elsewhere.

As an officer Harry Twigg would have had to apply for his service medal entitlement. Usually the Medal Index Card for officers will therefore have a contact address on the back - but unfortunately his is blank.

Acquiring a copy of the officer papers for Harry Twigg would seem the most obvious route to resolve this - unfortunately the National Archive records of WW1 officers isn't bringing up any matches. A few years back the Ministry of Defence did release a list of files they still held for men born before 1901 and who continued to serve after 1920 - but there is no obvious candidate for him there either.

So did your Harry Twigg marry or were any children born during the Great War period - there could be information on the related certificates that will tell you more about his rank and unit?

And is it known for sure that he was commissioned?

Cheers,
Peter

 

Had he been undergoing the reservist element of a regular engagement then it’s extremely unlikely that he’d have retained his full dress tunic unless he’d purloined it and there’d been a failure in accounting procedures.  It’s not impossible but it would be most unusual.  The only circumstance I can think of would be if the tunic was worn out and declared by a periodic board of officers as beyond use and to be cast off, i.e. “reduced to rags”.  It would have to be in a bad condition to justify that and so require both, mismanagement and a degree of collusion.  
The presence of a 1st class scouts badge implies a probable regular soldier, as TF units tended not to view the scouts course as of great value when compared with those for e.g. signals, or musketry.  The benefits to be accrued, given the limitations on free time to attend such courses, was a subject of measured consideration by auxiliary units.  On balance then it suggests that the subject was probably a regular soldier and might well have been still serving when he applied for, and received, a commission.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Gentlemen hi @FROGSMILE @PRC @6RRF

This is really opening my eyes to what an interesting topic genealogy really is.  Attached is a full shot of the tunic and you will see it has the white piping described and no pockets so that answers one question.

I should note that Henry Twigg was my maternal grandfather who was a lovely man that I remember fondly from my childhood. However, I have been concentrating on my paternal ancestors until now.

Thus, It occurred to me last night that Henry may have had brothers and although I have tracked his parents and other generations back I have not investigated Henry's brothers.  It is of course conceivable that the tunic belonged to a brother and somehow was kept by my maternal grandmother (his sister-in-law) for reasons that are now lost.

Now, closer inspection of the name label suggest there may be an initial under the name Twigg.   I discovered last night (from the history someone else has compiled) that Henry did have 5 brothers ranging from 6yrs younger to 6 years older.

Therefore this begs the question, could the 'symbol' under the name Twigg in the tunic, be a letter.  If it is a G, then yes he had a brother George Twigg born ~1885 according to the 1881 census.

On the tree another arm of the family is investigating (I have not ratified it yet as I am not a member of Ancestry.com or other providers - planning to visit my library to get help next week)....there is reference to National Army Museum; Chelsea, London, England; Soldiers' Effects Records, 1901-60; and George Twigg death, France and Flanders 1916, ...plus others so I need to establish if there is a George Twigg that aligns to the above and he was in the RWF - in which case it is likely the tunic is his....or one of his other brothers.

I'll post more once I can visit the library.  Sorry this doesn't help with your signature @PRC but its been amazing for me so thanks to you all for the insight.

Regards Foxy

2022_03_29 11_17 cropped.jpg

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This might be a fit but I don't yet know how to validate it.

6886 Company Sergeant Major, George TWIGG. Killed in action on the 20th August 1916 - Age 32. Commemorated on Thiepval Memorial.

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