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19th officer cadet I’d love if any one recognised any names


arantxa
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Fantastic research in this thread, brilliant job, and a great photo from the OP.

Unfortunately, and given that the OCB system is my main area of research at the moment, I have almost no information on No. 19 OCB.  Unusually, I have not been able to identify any journals that were produced by this OCB.

There is a brief account of life in that OCB by Henry Ogle in his memoir 'Fateful Battle Line'.

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12 hours ago, Charles Fair said:

Fantastic research in this thread, brilliant job, and a great photo from the OP.

Unfortunately, and given that the OCB system is my main area of research at the moment, I have almost no information on No. 19 OCB.  Unusually, I have not been able to identify any journals that were produced by this OCB.

There is a brief account of life in that OCB by Henry Ogle in his memoir 'Fateful Battle Line'.

Charles,

While I've been going through looking for more on the cadets, I've also been thinking about how to identify the three officer instructors, who presumably didn't sign the photograph as far as I can tell.

Instructors.jpg.18544ed8b4369ea33afa405d9326c55a.jpg

A check of the British Army Lists of the period doesn't appear to throw up and cheap and cheerful way to establish the officer establishments of individual OCB's. I was going to ask @arantxa if they could take a close-up that focused on the officers caps, in the hope that it might be able to identify their parent units. From that, along with the fact that the officer in the centre and right as we look at then still have their ranks on their sleeves, plus the officer centre, (presumably the Battalion OC), appears to be wearing a number of medal ribbons, I was hoping it might be possible to narrow down potential candidates.

However - is this the Henry Ogle who was commissioned 31st July 1917 into the Kings Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment)? As the course lasted four and a half months there would have been some overlap in the time he and these cadets would have been at Pirbright. Do you happen to know if the memoir mentions any of the instructors, possibly including candidates for the two SNCO's in the picture.

Cheers,
Peter

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I have found that officers posted to an OCB as instructors are mentioned in the London Gazette.  the actual OCB is not named, but is along the lines of 'while serving with an officer cadet battalion.'  Once I have a name/regiment I can look at the LG and thence Army List.  The LG is the more useful of the two.

Yes, its the same Henry Ogle.  These are the relevant pages.  No names of instructors I'm afraid.IMG_1812.JPG.925078bf2017440721dc41c076606666.JPGIMG_1814.JPG.790dc1ac93282d63e7ae01dd3a5e1139.JPGIMG_1815.JPG.74dd064bb01445a8195d79b7d05287ec.JPGIMG_1813.JPG.3ed39671b91462e3e6dd766fa8d25a7e.JPG

Edited by Charles Fair
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i like that comment about why the CO couldn't believe they could already have been gentleman  

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There is a photo of a company of 19 OCB in the NAM: 'Photograph showing 19th Officer Cadet Battalion, Pirbright, 1918 (c).' Reference is: 

Photographs 1985-10-42

Unfortunately it is undated, other than to circa 1918, and there is no writing around the margins or the reverse.  Here is a close up of the centre section with the officers.IMG_8823.JPG.1dcd5a4786c08e76750afe854a2eeaa7.JPG

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3 hours ago, Charles Fair said:

There is a photo of a company of 19 OCB in the NAM: 'Photograph showing 19th Officer Cadet Battalion, Pirbright, 1918 (c).' Reference is: 

Photographs 1985-10-42

Unfortunately it is undated, other than to circa 1918, and there is no writing around the margins or the reverse.  Here is a close up of the centre section with the officers

I would say there is a match between the the three officers from June 1917 and the 1918 picture. In the larger picture for 1918 there appear to be a few more medal ribbons in evidence on the SNCO's and the officer on the left, so possibly after the 1914 Star had been authorised?

1957217367_OfficercomparisonJune1917vs1918.png.b00a2dfce86298fa56e2ac066e9c772b.png

So are all three Fusiliers?

Cheers,
Peter

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The Lieutenant Colonel (central of the three) appears to be Royal Sussex Regiment, as does, not unexpectedly, his ‘young’ Captain and probable Adjutant at his left hand.  The other officer by the Colonel’s right hand, who is also a Captain (but wearing shoulder rank), appears to be from the Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment).

The SNCOs on the left side as we look are a a Sergeant Rifle Brigade (with two wound stripes) and a Colour Sergeant (the CQMS) from the Royal West Kent Regiment.  On the right side of the frame is a WOII (the CSM) from the King’s Royal Rifle Corps (wearing the senior staff badge of bugle on a scarlet cord boss, as per regimental practice).

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8 hours ago, DavidOwen said:

Great minds are clearly thinking alike here! I have already digitised those 50 files, as well as all others in WO 339 and WO 374 which have "officer cadet" in their description on Discovery.  That's 2,500 files, of which about 1,500 were RFC cadets.  The majority are of cadets who were in an OCB at the time of the Armistice and who were discharged to a commission in early 1919.  A few others were O/Cdts who died during their courses, or were discharged for some other reason.  A few were RTUd.

So far I have about 30 of men who were cadets at 19 OCB.  The only OCB instructor I have been able to identify in this way is the CO of the OCB if he signed the Form SD622 confidential report.  (Its very rare for the company or platoon commander in the OCB to appear in the service record.)  Here is Randall's Confidential report:

IMG_3464.JPG

My thread on SD 622s here: 

 

Edited by Charles Fair
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I have identified the CO who signed the above Form SD622 as Lt-Col Henry George Powell DSO. His service record that I have determined so far by cross referencing with Peter Hodgkinson's list of Inf Bn COs who led battalions on the Western Front and the London Gazette

  • In 1914 Captain Reserve of Officers ex-Regular Loyal North Lancashire Regiment, Brevet Major Res of Officers
  • Acting CO 1st Bn Loyal N Lancs 14/11/1914 - 05/01/1915 Invalided out
  • 8th Svc Bn E Surrey 08/04/1915 to 28/06/1916.
  • He was gazetted for his DSO and MID on 17/2/15, 15/9/15, 1/1/16, 15/6/16.  

 

The only other instructor at No 19 OCB that I have come across is a Lt/Capt Clifton MC, Lincolnshire Regt who is shown in the Inns of Court OTC Roll of Honour as an instructor in 19 OCB. His service record is WO 339/35417 but doesnt do much to clarify the dates he served w No 19.

The image below is of another CO who signed some of the SD622s from No 19 OCB.  I haven't positively identified this officer.

IMG_2826.JPG

Edited by Charles Fair
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38 minutes ago, Charles Fair said:

I have identified this CO as Lt-Col Henry George Powell DSO. His service record that I have determined so far by cross referencing with Peter Hodgkinson's list of Inf Bn COs who led battalions on the Western Front and the London Gazette

  • In 1914 Captain Reserve of Officers ex-Regular Loyal North Lancashire Regiment, Brevet Major Res of Officers
  • Acting CO 1st Bn Loyal N Lancs 14/11/1914 - 05/01/1915 Invalided out
  • 8th Svc Bn E Surrey 08/04/1915 to 28/06/1916.
  • He was gazetted for his DSO and MID on 17/2/15, 15/9/15, 1/1/16, 15/6/16.  

Afraid I have a potentially better candidate for you, based on @FROGSMILE identification of two of the officers including the Lieutenant Colonel as serving with the Royal Sussex Regiment. (Edit - just seen the additional documents you have edited into your post, so should say a better candidate for the Lieutenant Colonel in the photographs)

So sticking with the October 1917 British Army list, as I have it open and it looks the same individuals remained attached to 19 OCB, I can see there is a under the 1st and 2nd Battalion of the Royal Sussex Regiment a Temporary Lieutenant Colonel E. F. Villiers, C.M.G., D.S.O. who is commanding an Officer Cadet Battalion from the 1st March 1917. His seniority is from the 1st September 1915. (Column 1225). There are no other Lieutenant Colonel candidates from those Battalions.

And in the same category under Captains there is an S. Fitz G. Newman, attached to an Officer Cadet Battalion. His seniority is from the 1st November 1915. (Column 1226). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/106330050

There is a Medal Index Card for an Evelyn Fountaine Villiers DSO CMG who was a Captain with the 2nd Battalion, Royal Sussex Regiment when he landed in France on the 13th August 1914. He finished the war as a Lieutenant-Colonel with the Royal Sussex Regiment attached 15th, (or possibly 16th, writing is unclear) Battalion Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry.

His application for his 1914 Star came in December 1917 via the G.O.C. in C. Aldershot Command. Post war there are references to lists being received from the O.C. 1st Battalion Royal Sussex Regiment, and his contact address is given as the 1st Royal Sussex Regiment, Dover.

There is also a Medal Index Card for a Lieutenant and Adjutant Sholto F. Newman who was serving with the Royal Naval Brigade when he landed in Egypt on the 28th December 1915. Subsequently promoted Lieutenant Commander in the Royal Naval Division, he would finish his service in the war as a Captain in the Royal Sussex Regiment. He is shown as eligible for the Silver War Badge, with a date shown of the 6th April 1918. When he applied for his service medals in April 1920 his contact address was given as Keithia, Exeter Road, Teignmouth. Devon. The Supplement to the London Gazette, 17 November 1915, records that Sholto FitzGerald Newman, later Lieutenant-Commander, Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, was to be a temporary Captain in the Royal Sussex Regiment. Dated 1st November 1915. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29370/supplement/11440/data.pdf

Not quite sure how that ties in with the MiC information. The obituary that appeared in the edition of the Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer dated 2nd January 1932 also paints a confusing picture.

104198332_YorkshirePostandLeedsIntelligencer02January1932p13HappyMemoriesofYorkshiresourcedFMP.png.7cd50141ad2f68c94dd6bf5dc67ca6e5.png

Image courtesy of FindMyPast

I'll check the 2nd Battalion war diary for mentions of both of them.

Cheers,
Peter

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Thanks Paul, that is great sleuthing, and good for me to have another ID of a CO and instructor.  I meant that I had identified Powell as signing the SD622 in my previous post, not as being in the photo and have amended my post accordingly.  Most of the OCBs had 2 or 3 COs during their existence.

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2 hours ago, Charles Fair said:

I have identified the CO who signed the above Form SD622 as Lt-Col Henry George Powell DSO. His service record that I have determined so far by cross referencing with Peter Hodgkinson's list of Inf Bn COs who led battalions on the Western Front and the London Gazette

  • In 1914 Captain Reserve of Officers ex-Regular Loyal North Lancashire Regiment, Brevet Major Res of Officers
  • Acting CO 1st Bn Loyal N Lancs 14/11/1914 - 05/01/1915 Invalided out
  • 8th Svc Bn E Surrey 08/04/1915 to 28/06/1916.
  • He was gazetted for his DSO and MID on 17/2/15, 15/9/15, 1/1/16, 15/6/16.  

 

The only other instructor at No 19 OCB that I have come across is a Lt/Capt Clifton MC, Lincolnshire Regt who is shown in the Inns of Court OTC Roll of Honour as an instructor in 19 OCB. His service record is WO 339/35417 but doesnt do much to clarify the dates he served w No 19.

The image below is of another CO who signed some of the SD622s from No 19 OCB.  I haven't positively identified this officer.

IMG_2826.JPG

Lieutenant Clifton is almost certainly the first officer on the left side of the large 1918 group photo of 19 OCB that you posted, and sat adjacent to the CQMS from the Royal West Kent Regiment.  Lieutenant Clifton has the star shaped cap badge worn by the officers only of the Lincolnshire Regiment, along with large collar badges comprising the regiment’s famous Egyptian Sphinx with a wide title scroll beneath.

Peter’s candidates for the two Royal Sussex Regiment officers seem very likely to me, that is Lt Col Villiers and Capt Newman.

A10475BF-6D10-4906-8A6E-6EC05B1E153E.jpeg

E522D57E-A994-4B93-AFF8-8AC4B7A7F5A0.jpeg

C9D814F0-F7A8-4AD1-A311-2472DAFC8C5E.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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A close up of that officer. Definitely Lincolnshire Regt.  Great spot, I'm no expert on badges so it would have taken me a while to ID that.

IMG_8836.JPG.de960302bf0e0dffe95f279aaeb4b7c0.JPG

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Sholto Fitzgerald Newmans' Silver War Badge was issued on the 4th April 1918 according to the Silver War Badge Roll. FindMyPast in its' record set "British Armed Forces, First World War Disability & Retirement Payments For Officers & Nurses" has three entries for him, showing his pension commenced from the 10th March 1918. So that pretty much limits the date of the 1918 picture to the opening ten weeks of that year.

I'm afaid his 1932 obituary doesn't gain much support from the official documents - perhaps this is in his Army records . He does appear to have been with the Anson Battalion at Gallipoli, but his Royal Naval Division records make no mention of any wounding. On the 9th May 1915 he is invalided to a Malta Hospital - possible clerical error and may reflect receipt of notification of a spell in hospital in March on the way out. 26th May 1915 admitted 3rd Field Ambulance with Gastritis & Lumbago - moved to the 16th Stationary Hospital Mudros. Rejoins unit 8th June 1915. 16th June 1915 admitted to Deaconess Hospital, Alexandra with Chronic Gastritis.. On the 27th June 1915 he is admitted to the 19th General Hospital with Gastritis. On either the 14th or 18th July 1915 he embarked at Alexandria bound for England aboard the Hospital Ship Goorkha - Invalided Home. Then serving with the 1st Reserve Battalion, his temporary RNVR commission was terminated on the 27th October 1915 so he could take up a commission in the Army. He had served as Adjutant from the 3rd April 1915 to the 26th May 1915. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7279150

Going through the 2nd Battalion, Royal Sussex War Diary looking for Sholto Newman and Evelyn Villiers brings up the following references  -  although the version I have access to contains none of the appendices :-

There are no mentions of Villiers until the 4th October 1914, when it is noted that Captain E.FR. Villiers, D.S.O. joined the Battalion for duty – so sounds like the date of entry on his MiC was a bit out or he was serving elsewhere - Brigade \ Division?.

November 1st 1914. Captain Villiers then took command of the Bn., Major Green having been wounded. (11th November 1914 a Major Cautley arrived with a draft of reinforcements so presumably took over as C.O.). The diary was signed off at the end of the month by a Major Terry, (although he didn’t actually take over the Battalion until the 24th December 1914).

29th January 1915 GINCHY.

At about 8.45, the enemy who had massed behind the Brickstacks which are N.E. and E of the KEEP & advanced to attack the KEEP on its N. EASTERN, EASTERN & SOUTHERN  sides. The enemy carried escalading ladders and hatchets and succeeded in getting up as close as 10 or 20 yds of the KEEP. Our garrison besides doing great execution with their rifles used hand bombs with great success: in fact Captain Villers who commands the KEEP attributes no small part of the success in repelling this attack to his bombing party under A.Coy Sgt. Maj. Butcher. (D Company were in the Keep, so presumably Captain Villiers was their Company Commander).

8th May 1915.

Remained at LES FACONS all day and moved up to RICHEBOURG L’AVOUE in the evening. On arrival took over breastworks from BLACK WATCH. Capt Villers & St Croix were wounded in the RUE DU BOIS on the way up.

18th August 1915.

Capt. E.F. VILLIERS, D.S.O. rejoined the Bn. from England.

19th September 1915.

Major E.F. Villiers, D.S.O. rejoined Bn. from leave.

25th September 1915. This is a personal narrative of an unnamed O.C of the Battalion, but as the exisiting C.O. was then in command of the Brigade, and the diary for the month is signed off by a Major Villiers, I assumed it is him writing about the near annihilation of his Battalion.

13th October 1915. Narrative by Lieut. Col. E.F. VILLIERS D.S.O.

October 1915 to February 1916 – when diaries are signed off it is done by Lt. Col. Villiers

20th March 1916. Lieut. Col. Villiers D.S.O. on leave to England. There is no mention of him coming back, but he signs the April 1916 Diary. Still no mention of Captain Newman.

In the June 1916 Kings Birthday Honours Lt. Col. Villiers received the C.M.G.

19th June 1916. Lieut. Col. Villiers D.S.O. on leave to England. (Returned 26/6).

26th July 1916 Lieut.Col E.F. VILLIERS left the Battalion, sick.

Between July and September 1916 while the Battalion was on the Somme there appears to have been a nearly complete churn of the officers, while there are also detailed lists for officers down to platoon level taking part in the various attacks – but no mention of Captain Newman. Checking the War Diary to March 1917 – according to the British Army Monthly List Colonel Villiers took over command of an Officer Cadet Battalion on the 1st March 1917 – there is no mention of either man. Doesn't look like they ever served in the field together.

So other than that slightly dodgy 1932 obituary, nothing so far to call in to question the identification of Lieutenant Colonel Villiers and Captain Newman as the two men present in both pictures.

Cheers,
Peter

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1 hour ago, PRC said:

Sholto Fitzgerald Newmans' Silver War Badge was issued on the 4th April 1918 according to the Silver War Badge Roll. FindMyPast in its' record set "British Armed Forces, First World War Disability & Retirement Payments For Officers & Nurses" has three entries for him, showing his pension commenced from the 10th March 1918. So that pretty much limits the date of the 1918 picture to the opening ten weeks of that year.

I'm afaid his 1932 obituary doesn't gain much support from the official documents - perhaps this is in his Army records . He does appear to have been with the Anson Battalion at Gallipoli, but his Royal Naval Division records make no mention of any wounding. On the 9th May 1915 he is invalided to a Malta Hospital - possible clerical error and may reflect receipt of notification of a spell in hospital in March on the way out. 26th May 1915 admitted 3rd Field Ambulance with Gastritis & Lumbago - moved to the 16th Stationary Hospital Mudros. Rejoins unit 8th June 1915. 16th June 1915 admitted to Deaconess Hospital, Alexandra with Chronic Gastritis.. On the 27th June 1915 he is admitted to the 19th General Hospital with Gastritis. On either the 14th or 18th July 1915 he embarked at Alexandria bound for England aboard the Hospital Ship Goorkha - Invalided Home. Then serving with the 1st Reserve Battalion, his temporary RNVR commission was terminated on the 27th October 1915 so he could take up a commission in the Army. He had served as Adjutant from the 3rd April 1915 to the 26th May 1915. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7279150

Going through the 2nd Battalion, Royal Sussex War Diary looking for Sholto Newman and Evelyn Villiers brings up the following references  -  although the version I have access to contains none of the appendices :-

There are no mentions of Villiers until the 4th October 1914, when it is noted that Captain E.FR. Villiers, D.S.O. joined the Battalion for duty – so sounds like the date of entry on his MiC was a bit out or he was serving elsewhere - Brigade \ Division?.

November 1st 1914. Captain Villiers then took command of the Bn., Major Green having been wounded. (11th November 1914 a Major Cautley arrived with a draft of reinforcements so presumably took over as C.O.). The diary was signed off at the end of the month by a Major Terry, (although he didn’t actually take over the Battalion until the 24th December 1914).

29th January 1915 GINCHY.

At about 8.45, the enemy who had massed behind the Brickstacks which are N.E. and E of the KEEP & advanced to attack the KEEP on its N. EASTERN, EASTERN & SOUTHERN  sides. The enemy carried escalading ladders and hatchets and succeeded in getting up as close as 10 or 20 yds of the KEEP. Our garrison besides doing great execution with their rifles used hand bombs with great success: in fact Captain Villers who commands the KEEP attributes no small part of the success in repelling this attack to his bombing party under A.Coy Sgt. Maj. Butcher. (D Company were in the Keep, so presumably Captain Villiers was their Company Commander).

8th May 1915.

Remained at LES FACONS all day and moved up to RICHEBOURG L’AVOUE in the evening. On arrival took over breastworks from BLACK WATCH. Capt Villers & St Croix were wounded in the RUE DU BOIS on the way up.

18th August 1915.

Capt. E.F. VILLIERS, D.S.O. rejoined the Bn. from England.

19th September 1915.

Major E.F. Villiers, D.S.O. rejoined Bn. from leave.

25th September 1915. This is a personal narrative of an unnamed O.C of the Battalion, but as the exisiting C.O. was then in command of the Brigade, and the diary for the month is signed off by a Major Villiers, I assumed it is him writing about the near annihilation of his Battalion.

13th October 1915. Narrative by Lieut. Col. E.F. VILLIERS D.S.O.

October 1915 to February 1916 – when diaries are signed off it is done by Lt. Col. Villiers

20th March 1916. Lieut. Col. Villiers D.S.O. on leave to England. There is no mention of him coming back, but he signs the April 1916 Diary. Still no mention of Captain Newman.

In the June 1916 Kings Birthday Honours Lt. Col. Villiers received the C.M.G.

19th June 1916. Lieut. Col. Villiers D.S.O. on leave to England. (Returned 26/6).

26th July 1916 Lieut.Col E.F. VILLIERS left the Battalion, sick.

Between July and September 1916 while the Battalion was on the Somme there appears to have been a nearly complete churn of the officers, while there are also detailed lists for officers down to platoon level taking part in the various attacks – but no mention of Captain Newman. Checking the War Diary to March 1917 – according to the British Army Monthly List Colonel Villiers took over command of an Officer Cadet Battalion on the 1st March 1917 – there is no mention of either man. Doesn't look like they ever served in the field together.

So other than that slightly dodgy 1932 obituary, nothing so far to call in to question the identification of Lieutenant Colonel Villiers and Captain Newman as the two men present in both pictures.

Cheers,
Peter

Excellent work Peter.  Kudos to you.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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3 hours ago, Charles Fair said:

A close up of that officer. Definitely Lincolnshire Regt.  Great spot, I'm no expert on badges so it would have taken me a while to ID that.

IMG_8836.JPG.de960302bf0e0dffe95f279aaeb4b7c0.JPG

The officer on the opposite side of Lieutenant Clifton appears to be from a London Regiment battalion with Rifle Brigade styled insignia, but unlike the latter regiment with discrete collar badges (although he might also be something like Leeds, or Robin Hood Rifles too).  It’s made me wonder if the Royal Fusiliers Captain next to him might also be from one of the London Regiment battalions, as by that stage of the war the miniature T on collars had been largely abandoned.  Collar badges can often be critical in making an unit ID.

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22 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

The SNCOs on the left side as we look are a a Sergeant Rifle Brigade (with two wound stripes) and a Colour Sergeant (the CQMS) from the Royal West Kent Regiment.  On the right side of the frame is a WOII (the CSM) from the King’s Royal Rifle Corps (wearing the senior staff badge of bugle on a scarlet cord boss, as per regimental practice).

I have records of four Sergeants that were attached to the 19th O.C.B.:-

Madeley, George Alfred, 2552, 5th RB to the 19th OCB 2/3/17, no service overseas though.

Eamer, William, 3808, 5th RB to the 19th OCB 2/3/17, no service overseas though

Shepherd, Walter, 4647, 2nd RB, wounded in action 1/10/15, to 19th OCB 2/3/17

Baker, William, B/24, 7th RB although previously 7 years service with 3rd RB, 2 visits to hospital in France, 2nd visit led to him being sent to the UK with shellshock. to 19th OCB 2/3/17, whilst attached to the 19th OCB he was sent on an instructors course and a gas course.

Andy

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19 minutes ago, stiletto_33853 said:

I have records of four Sergeants that were attached to the 19th O.C.B.:-

Madeley, George Alfred, 2552, 5th RB to the 19th OCB 2/3/17, no service overseas though.

Eamer, William, 3808, 5th RB to the 19th OCB 2/3/17, no service overseas though

Shepherd, Walter, 4647, 2nd RB, wounded in action 1/10/15, to 19th OCB 2/3/17

Baker, William, B/24, 7th RB although previously 7 years service with 3rd RB, 2 visits to hospital in France, 2nd visit led to him being sent to the UK with shellshock. to 19th OCB 2/3/17, whilst attached to the 19th OCB he was sent on an instructors course and a gas course.

Andy

Excellent work Andy. Ostensibly it could be either Shepherd or Baker.  The sergeant in the photo has two wound stripes and has the clear appearance/demeanour (to me) of a regular soldier.  The two separate visits to hospital followed by evacuation suggests to me that it is Sergeant Baker in the photo.

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Going back to the signatures on the picture:-

1333968931_PerryorPurdyorPennyorWHY.jpg.f31ef676d95ac11384002c480c7cbaca.jpg

Original guess - Geo. O. Perry, or Penny or Purdy (or Pinney or Percy!)

No obvious candidate from either the London Gazette or the MiC’s.

Greenwood.jpg.22b0e7d789cc2884e0921c5d085eec52.jpg

B J.O. Greenwood – Supplement to the London Gazette 20 July 1917 page 7420 as per @esco. Cadet Blake John Greenwood to be a Temporary 2nd Lt in the Territorial Force w.e.f. 27th June 1917. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30193/supplement/7420

There is a MiC for a Private 6440 Blake J. O Greenwood, 14th Battalion, London Regiment, subsequently renumbered 512590, who was discharged to a commission on the 26th June 1917. The remarks column states that he is “On R+F Roll T P 14/102 N/150”, but there are no details on the MiC itself as to medal entitlement, first theatre and date of entry, final rank and unit or contact address.

The October 1917 British Army List reords a Second Lieutenant B.J.O. Greenwood, with seniority from the 27th June 1917, on the establishment of the Derbyshire Yeomanry. (Column 342). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/106323956

By the November 1918 British Army List he was shown serving with the 2/1st Derbyshire Yeomanry and still a Second Lieutenant. (Column 342). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123094353

The 2/1st Derbyshire Yeomanry was a Home Service only unit that had been converted to a Cyclist Unit in July 1916. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-yeomanry-regiments-of-1914-1918/derbyshire-yeomanry/

His Officer records at the National Archive are catalogued as 2/Lieutenant Blake John Oliver Greenwood, Derbyshire Yeomanry. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C699252

The absense of a MiC may possibly be explained by the 1922 Indian Army List. A Blake John Oliver Greenwood had been a Lieutenant in the Indian Army Reserve of Officers since the 27th June 1918 and had now been released. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=wUado2xeDfYC&pg=PA612&lpg=PA612&dq=Blake+John+Oliver+Greenwood&source=bl&ots=WY93oC3-f3&sig=ACfU3U0q4gpGN9yqzeqn9X989h394ECR6w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjdyNrbrbXzAhUxREEAHU0OBusQ6AF6BAgOEAM#v=onepage&q=Blake John Oliver Greenwood&f=false

The usual big assumption that he was born in England and Wales means there is only one likely match in the whole of the period 1837-2006. This was a Blake John O. Greenwood whose birth was registered in the Epping District of Essex in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1894.

On the 1911 Census of England & Wales the 16 year old Blake John Oliver Greenwood, still at school and born Loughton, Essex, was recorded living at 75 Palace Gates Road, Wood Green, North London. This was the household of his parents Frank Joseph, (47, Accountant in Mercantile Office) and Ann Rosina. His older sister, Una Rosina Laura, (19) was a student in teacher training.

Post-war it looks like he married a Margarite C. Belford in the St Margaret District of London in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1921. The couple possibly had one child, Patricia M M, whose birth was registered in the Fulham District in Q1 1923 and another, Ann E.U. Greenwood in the Richmond (Surrey) District in Q1 1927 – but we’ll come back to that.

An interesting indication of what Blake was up to at this time of his life come from of all things an amateur dramatics review that appeared in the edition of The Era, dated 1st March 1923, and under the general heading “The Amateur Stage in the Suburbs”.

MINLAKE A.O.S.

The plays of John Galsworthy always present opportunities for good acting, and the staff of the Ministry of Labour proved themselves quite capable of taking the chances offered in “The Skin Game.”, which they performed at the King’s Hall, W. The production, under the direction of Jack Kelly, was artistic and – except for the prompter’s too frequest aid, convincing throughout. In the early part of the play the character of Chloe holds a watching brief, but opportunity for acting comes later, and then Rita Gallaly scored heavily, giving a reading of much power, passion, and intensity. As the overbearing Hornblower. Alan F. Woods, if somewhat restless, acted a difficult part with great earnestness, his unwilling opponent Hillcrist, being quietly and sympathetically rendered by Blake J.O. Greenwood.

The edition of The Era dated 5th December 1928 also found him mentioned in a review.

CIVIL SERVICE D.S.

At the New Scala Theatre, on the 19th and 20th November, the Civil Service Dramatic Society gave its third and best production, ‘Mr. John Galsworthy’s’ “The Silver Box.” It is interesting to recall that the same author’s play, “The Skin Game,” was the Society’s last production…..the Unknown Lady was flamboyantly acted by Miss Eleanor A. Esquilant; and the Police Magistrate was made a refined type, with a knowledge of the law but none of the human heart, by Mr. Blake J.O. Greenwood. Other performances…….

Whether his acting brought him happiness or not, all appears not to be well in his private life. While there is no obvious record of the death of his wife, there is another marriage of a Blake J. O. Greenwood, this time recorded in the Richmond District of Surrey in Q4 1929, his new wife, (if indeed it is the same man), was a May E. Widdowson.

He was still acting – indeed the edition of The Bystander dated 27th March 1929 produced this image of the Civil Service Dramatic Society and their new production “The Last of Mrs Cheyney”.

1166520369_TheBystander27March1929Page24AmateorsintheLastofMrsCheyneycrop.png.2bbb67747adf8f7065799cc76248fe17.png

Image courtesy FindMyPast.

Unfortunately could potentially be three or four of the men seated in the right hand side of the 19 OCB photograph. I think the closest are the two at the left and right of this crop – but other candidates are available :)

483658917_BlakeGreenwoodpanel.png.429a36333528c0412b93c5ce43a9a223.png

On the 1939 Register a married man, Blake J.O. Greenwood, born 21st June 1894, was recorded as the first person in the household at 29 Vicarage Road, Richmond upon Thames. A Civil Servant, he worked as a Staff Clerk at the Ministry of Labour. The second person was a married woman, (and almost certainly his wife), May E. Greenwood, born 15th October 1906. There are then two closed records, a probable daughter Gillian, born 1936 and a young live in servant.

The death of a Blake J.O. Greenwood, aged 70, was recorded in the Tonbridge District of Kent in Q2 1965.

The 1965 Probate Calendar records that a Blake John Oliver Greenwood of 29 Vicarage Road, East Sheen, London, died 17 April 1965, at Kent and Sussex Hospital, Tunbridge Wells. Probate was granted to May Ethel Greenwood, widow. https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=Greenwood&yearOfDeath=1965&page=2#calendar

Cheers,
Peter

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Dear Peter,

Brilliantly researched!

The second from left, to my mind (jaw)...

Kindest regards,

Kim.

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21 minutes ago, esco said:

Possible but commissioning on the 1st August 1917 opens up a whole raft of possibilities for the other names if we are no longer looking at a commissioning date of the 27th June 1917. Nothing so far to indicate this is anything other than a graduation picture, although even that is an assumption.

Cheers,
Peter

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George Ogilvie Penny seems on the surface of things a good match given that there were no obvious candidates previously.  Put in another way, and being devil’s advocate, what are the reasons why it couldn’t be him?

Edited by FROGSMILE
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15 minutes ago, PRC said:

Possible but commissioning on the 1st August 1917 opens up a whole raft of possibilities for the other names if we are no longer looking at a commissioning date of the 27th June 1917. Nothing so far to indicate this is anything other than a graduation picture, although even that is an assumption.

From my research and digging round the LG I have found that not all cadets in a given intake were commissioned immediately at the end of the course,  Some were backsquadded because of illness and injury, Others may have been on the borderline and were recommended to stay on for an extra month or two in order to gain more experience of command.  Others may have narrowly failed the exams, but were recommended to pass because they had proved themselves in other ways, e.g. command roles on exercise.  In both these cases approval needed to be sought by SD3 in the War Office who usually confirmed the CO's recommendations.  I have sometimes found paperwork to this effect in their service records in WO 339 or WO 374.

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