19th officer cadet I’d love if any one recognised any names

[Foxy]

Thanks @Michelle Young I think that may be it as he did have a brother William and I will try to track down where they were living from Census records but Birmingham is extremely likely.

[Michelle Young]

Fingers crossed! 

[PRC]

52 minutes ago, Foxy said:

6886 Company Sergeant Major, George TWIGG. Killed in action on the 20th August 1916 - Age 32. Commemorated on Thiepval Memorial.

On 28/03/2022 at 15:30, PRC said:

Unfortunately I'm not seeing a likely MiC for a Harry or Henry Twigg serving with the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, the nearest in rank being a Company Quartermaster Sergeant 6886 George Twigg who landed in France with the 2nd Battalion on the 11th August 1914. George would be killed in action on the 20th August 1916, aged 32.

The additional information on his Commonwealth War Graves Commission webpage is "Brother of William Twigg, of 3, Back of 25, Guest St., Hockley, Birmingham" - does that tie in with any of the information you have.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Foxy said:

This might be a fit but I don't yet know how to validate it.

6886 Company Sergeant Major, George TWIGG. Killed in action on the 20th August 1916 - Age 32. Commemorated on Thiepval Memorial.

I think that’s a strong likelihood, and the name rings a bell too.  There are excellent books published not that long ago covering (separately) the two regular battalions of the RWF, 1st and 2nd, during WW1, both of them heavily illustrated and often mentioning names.  

The tunic is one of the best that I’ve ever seen, which is unsurprising given that the pattern shown was only introduced in 1913 and then withdrawn to store (initially for the duration of the war) in 1914.  It’s in virtually mint condition.  Inside should be a label with the size, etc.  From memory one of the battalions provided a guard of honour for the King, I think at Windsor Castle, and probably around 1912.  The men were wearing the previous pattern tunic with the white piping running up the collar join and along its top rather than bottom.

Edited 29 March , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Foxy]

@PRC yes I saw the address info and printed the certificate.  As yet I cannot see the address from the census but Birmingham is certainly correct.

@FROGSMILE I included a photo of the only label and supplier (see above) and I have kept the jacket covered and hung for many years.

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, Foxy said:

@PRC yes I saw the address info and printed the certificate.  As yet I cannot see the address from the census but Birmingham is certainly correct.

@FROGSMILE I included a photo of the only label and supplier (see above) and I have kept the jacket covered and hung for many years.

You have done extremely well, and I applaud you, it’s in fantastic condition and the 1st class scout badge adds special interest to its provenance.

 I wonder if George Twigg knew this sergeant, standing alongside his mother, and who is wearing the same 1913 pattern tunic.  Only the regular battalions had started receiving these new tunics by the time war was declared.

Edited 29 March , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Foxy said:

Sorry this doesn't help with your signature @PRC but its been amazing for me so thanks to you all for the insight.

Looking at the three "signatures" available I would have to say that unless Harry was reknown for his inconsistant handwriting, they actually are from three different individuals - note the shaping of the capital "T", the way it is joined or not joined to the subsequent "w", the dotting of the "i" and the shaping of the two "gg"'s.

There is a story to be told here about at least two of the Twigg brothers, but at this point I suspect it has nothing to do with the man who attended a course with the 19th Officer Cadet Battalion in 1917.

It might therefore be an idea for the admins to move this into it's own thread where it will hopefully get wider attention. And if it turns out that Harry Twigg does indeed turn out to be the man commissioned into the Manchester Regiment then the two threads can always be cross-referenced.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

I’ve found the details of the parade concerned:

“1 RWF Honour Guard. Windsor Castle, Alma Day, 20th September 1913 in honour of Major General Luke O'Connor VC KCB, Colonel of The Regiment. Luke O'Connor won his VC at the Battle of The Alma in the Crimean War in 1854. He was commissioned in the field and went on to become a Major General. He died in 1915.”

The men were wearing the new tunic and it seems to be quite likely that George Twigg was on parade in the tunic pictured in this thread.  I say this because I doubt that there would have been sufficient tunics of the new pattern to outfit the whole battalion and so it’s likely that only the party involved in the guard of honour were so equipped.  See photos below (the sergeant major of battalion and the Adjutant are wearing white cap covers and all the sergeants are seated).

NB.  J & B Pearse Company Ltd, London, were Army clothiers and contractors who were purchased by Compton Sons & Webb in 1924-25, probably due to the demise of full dress and the concomitant reduction in government contracts.  Ergo even the makers label represents a distinct piece of history (the company was first listed in 1811!).

Edited 29 March , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Eskdale10]

Hello all,

Photographs of two KOSB Robinson possibilities below. The first is the 1/5th Btn William Robinson KIA August 1918 mentioned above, but not a good match in my opinion. The second is 4th Reserve Btn William John Scott Robinson, perhaps a better match for the man seventh from the right in the back row?

Regards

John

[PRC]

On 18/08/2022 at 18:49, Eskdale10 said:

Photographs of two KOSB Robinson possibilities below. The first is the 1/5th Btn William Robinson KIA August 1918 mentioned above, but not a good match in my opinion. The second is 4th Reserve Btn William John Scott Robinson, perhaps a better match for the man seventh from the right in the back row?

I can see where you're coming from, (if I've counted off the right man), but just from a physical perspective the face of William John Scott Robinson seems too broad for me. (Other opinions are available)

All image rights remain with the original sources.

I've just been trying to refresh my mind on this whole thread.

On 21/09/2021 at 22:54, PRC said:

Hi Charlie,

Nothing found so far to indicate this is a mixed group of cadets who would go on to be commissioned at different dates, so at the moment the key date seems to be the 27th June 1917.

However you may be on for an assist. The lists of cadets commissioned 2Lt that covers many of the men identified so far is on pages 7199 to 7201 in the Supplement to the London Gazette dated 17th July 1917. On page 7200 there is a William Robinson, commissioned in the Regular Army in the Kings Own Scottisn Borderers. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30187/supplement/7200

The same page also has a William Frank Robinson commissioned in the Essex Regiment. While I can just about see a possible "W" at the start of the signature, I think "W.F." would be stretching things too much !

If my speculation about the picture being of the cadets on the course finishing towards the end of June 1917 and they were gazetted in July 1917 is correct, then I think that also rules William John Scott Robinson. His MiC only shows him as a 2nd Lieutenant, Kings Own Scottish Borders, so he hadn't seen any prior service overseas in the ranks. So when his MiC shows he was in France from the 20th January 1917 to the 9th March 1917, subsequently applying for and receiving the Silver War Badge, the timescale really doesn't tie up.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 13 January by PRC
1) Typos 2) 13/01/2024 Reinstate image

[FROGSMILE]

I agree not the same man.  Flesh density might change over time, but not the breadth of the skull.

[SMF Marty]

On 06/10/2021 at 22:28, esco said:

 

 If he is the man seated directly above the signature , the headdress would suit .  https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C723506    . Scottish Horse .

Hi there - just found this forum and topic. This man is definitely George O. Penny - he is my wife's grandfather. As noted he was latterly in the 2nd Scottish Horse. He was awarded the Military Cross during the advance east of Ypres 29/30 Oct 1918 as a 2nd lieutenant in the 2nd Scottish Horse (attached to the 9th Bn Scottish Rifles). He remained with the Scottish Horse for a short while after the war being posted to Northern Ireland until discharge in 1921. 

The attached photo was taken somewhere in Germany at New Year 1919 

[PRC]

Hi @SMF Marty and welcome to the forum.

Tried re-reading the thread to refresh my memory on what it was all about and ended up having to go and have a lie down

I think were we'd go to was a tentative identification of one of the officer cadets as George Ogilvie Penny based on proximity to the signature, uniform and a subjective facial resemblance to a known picture of George Ogilvie Penny from much later in life.

I believe that would make a side by side comparison including your image look something like this:-

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Both the Trooper and the Corporal, (first and second left)  look like they have four overseas service chevrons on their right lower sleeves. Could be a trick of the light but the top one might be a different colour, suggesting they had been overseas since 1914. Edit 14/1 - see correction advised by Andrew Upton later in thread. Again, more of an informed guess, but looks like the Corporal and the Sergeant may be wearing a medal ribbon over their left breast pocket. While possibly a gallantry award, I'm wondering if what can be seen is the white central stripe of a 1914 Star service medal ribbon.  The same ribbon was also used for the 1914/15 Star, but permission to actually supply the ribbon for that I believe wasn't in place until a slightly later date in January 1919.

Image courtesy Bigburymint com

Unfortunately if the Trooper is wearing a 1914 Star or the Sergeant is wearing overseas service chevrons we won't know from this picture because the relevant areas are not visible.

Hopefully one of the uniform experts will be along shortly to comment further and also on the capbadges on display - I've had a quick look and I'm not sure any part of the Scottish Horse ended up in Germany.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 14 January by PRC
Typos

[FROGSMILE]

56 minutes ago, PRC said:

Hi @SMF Marty and welcome to the forum.

Tried re-reading the thread to refresh my memory on what it was all about and ended up having to go and have a lie down

I think were we'd go to was a tentative identification of one of the officer cadets as George Ogilvie Penney based on proximity to the signature, uniform and a subjective facial resemblance to a known picture of George Ogilvie Penney from much later in life.

I believe that would make a side by side comparison including your image look something like this:-

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Both the Trooper and the Corporal, (first and second left)  look like they have four overseas service chevrons on their right lower sleeves. Could be a trick of the light but the top one might be a different colour, suggesting they had been overseas since 1914. Again, more of an informed guess, but looks like the Corporal and the Sergeant may be wearing a medal ribbon over their left breast pocket. While possibly a gallantry award, I'm wondering if what can be seen is the white central stripe of a 1914 Star service medal ribbon.  The same ribbon was also used for the 1914/15 Star, but permission to actually supply the ribbon for that I believe wasn't in place until a slightly later date in January 1919.

Image courtesy Bigburymint com

Unfortunately if the Trooper is wearing a 1914 Star or the Sergeant is wearing overseas service chevrons we won't know from this picture because the relevant areas are not visible.

Hopefully one of the uniform experts will be along shortly to comment further and also on the capbadges on display - I've had a quick look and I'm not sure any part of the Scottish Horse ended up in Germany.

Cheers,
Peter

 

Peter the sergeant is a Cameronian (Scottish Rifles) and the fellow far left as we look appears as if he might be a warrant officer and RSM.  I can see what seems to be a coat of arms badge on his right lower sleeve and the hint of what looks like a leather belt and so probably Sam Browne.  His buttons are not visible and nor are those of the other NCO (corporal) next to him - who I agree has a 1914 overseas stripe, plus three others - but the Tam o Shanter headdress of all three other ranks looks to me consistently as Cameronian’s.  This suggests to me that they are probably from the 9th Battalion of that regiment.  They are all of them wearing on their upper arms the silver thistle on blue background of the 9th (Scottish) Division.

From the LongLongTrail:

9th (Service) Battalion.
“Formed at Hamilton in August 1914 as part of K1 and came under orders of 28th Brigade in 9th (Scottish) Division. Moved to Bordon and in March 1915 went on to Bramshott.
Landed at Boulogne 12 May 1915.
6 May 1916 : transferred to 27th Brigade in same Division.
5 February 1918 : transferred to 43rd Brigade in 14th (Light) Division.
21 April 1918 : transferred to South African Brigade in 9th (Scottish) Division.
12 September 1918 : transferred to 28th Brigade in same Division.”

“They had previously been in action in the the Battles of the Lys and the Final Advance in Flanders. The Division was withdrawn for rest in late October and were in billets on the 11th of November at the Armistice. The Division crossed into Germany as part of the occupation force on the 4th of December 1918 and were positioned in the Cologne bridgehead. The wartime units were replaced in February 1919 and the men demobilized.”

See: 

 

Edited 13 January by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

14 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Peter the sergeant is a Cameronian (Scottish Rifles) and the fellow far left as we look appears as if he might be a warrant officer and RSM.  I can see what seems to be a coat of arms badge on his right lower sleeve and the hint of what looks like a leather belt and so probably Sam Browne.  His buttons are not visible and nor are the other NCO next to him - who I agree has a 1914 overseas stripe plus three others - but the Tam o Shanter headdress of all three other ranks looks to me consistently as Cameronian’s.  This suggests to me that they are probably from the 9th Battalion of that regiment.

Thanks @FROGSMILE, your eyes are sharper than mine with it comes to these sort of things. I had suspected he was still with the 9th Battalion, and that only grew when I couldn't find any of the Scottish Horse units going to Germany. I was hesitant though as I did wonder whether any junior officer in an Infantry Battalion other than the Transport Officer would be back on a horse so soon after the war ended. Presumably they may have helped themselves to some no longer needed by the German Army.

@SMF Marty - the War Diary for the 9th Battalion, Cameronians, (Scottish Rifles), goes through until the end of March 1919. It can currently be downloaded for free from the UK National Archive. You do need to sign in with your account, but if you don't have one it can be set up as part of placing your first order. Just click on "sign in" on any page of the online catalogue and follow the instructions - no financial details are requested. The part of the diary covering from September 1918 to March 1919 can be found in the online catalogue here https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352561

Alternatively if you subscribe to Ancestry it can be viewed there.

Hopefully will give you some idea of where they were on New Years Day.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, PRC said:

Thanks @FROGSMILE, your eyes are sharper than mine with it comes to these sort of things. I had suspected he was still with the 9th Battalion, and that only grew when I couldn't find any of the Scottish Horse units going to Germany. I was hesitant though as I did wonder whether any junior officer in an Infantry Battalion other than the Transport Officer would be back on a horse so soon after the war ended. Presumably they may have helped themselves to some no longer needed by the German Army.

@SMF Marty - the War Diary for the 9th Battalion, Cameronians, (Scottish Rifles), goes through until the end of March 1919. It can currently be downloaded for free from the UK National Archive. You do need to sign in with your account, but if you don't have one it can be set up as part of placing your first order. Just click on "sign in" on any page of the online catalogue and follow the instructions - no financial details are requested. The part of the diary covering from September 1918 to March 1919 can be found in the online catalogue here https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352561

Alternatively if you subscribe to Ancestry it can be viewed there.

Hopefully will give you some idea of where they were on New Years Day.

Cheers,
Peter

I think that their steeds were probably from the Transport Section, Peter.  The establishment of this was maintained throughout the war and a battalion couldn’t really function effectively without it.  Although a majority were light draught animals, some chargers were specifically earmarked for the field rank/appointment officers and these had to be regularly exercised, which I suspect might be what we see here. 

Edited 13 January by FROGSMILE

[Andrew Upton]

2 hours ago, PRC said:

...Both the Trooper and the Corporal, (first and second left)  look like they have four overseas service chevrons on their right lower sleeves. Could be a trick of the light but the top one might be a different colour, suggesting they had been overseas since 1914...

Unless that was a typo that cannot be correct, as when the red chevron is worn correctly it is at the bottom of any subsequent blue chevrons, eg:

 

[PRC]

9 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

Unless that was a typo that cannot be correct, as when the red chevron is worn correctly it is at the bottom of any subsequent blue chevron

Combination of trick of the light and brain not being fully engaged - apologies all round.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

23 minutes ago, PRC said:

Combination of trick of the light and brain not being fully engaged - apologies all round.

Cheers,
Peter

It’s no problem Peter, I think it’s understood what you meant.  It’s not as if the overseas stripes haven’t been discussed very many times before.

[SMF Marty]

Thanks guys for the replies. He was probably in the Transport Section as his duties involved transportation and distribution of ammunition and supplies. Indeed that is what he was doing at Ypres. He had several horses assigned to him during the war but always preferred to first one. Unfortunately a shell of some kind went off under or beside him killing the horse. As he was on top however he survived as the horse shielded him from the blast. 

The War Diary from the National Archives looks very interesting and I'll have to study it more closely, but from first glance it appears they were based halfway between Cologne and Dusseldorf (they did appear to move about a few times in the same area). George himself was even mentioned as returning from leave on the 9th February.

[PRC]

17 hours ago, SMF Marty said:

He remained with the Scottish Horse for a short while after the war being posted to Northern Ireland until discharge in 1921. 

His officers personal papers are held at the National Archive and look like they have been there a while, rather than one of the records that are in the current batch of transfers from the Ministry of Defence, (MoD) to the National Archive. That would tend to indicate that if he either did not serve into 1921, or if he did then the date for the termination of his commission was already known. Men serving from 1921 onwards would normally have their records held at the MoD and so weren't in the warehouse that was bombed out in WW2.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C723506

They are undigitised, so would require either a visit to view, or to organise a copy to be taken. It's not something I've had cause to do so have no direct experience. Consensus on the forum seems to be that the National Archives own copying service is slow, low quality and expensive. There a number of private researchers who have been mentioned on the forum over the years as providing a better all round experience, so if you are interesting in seeing a copy you might want to do a forum search.

While the file may contain only correspondence it will hopefully give you some sample signatures that could be used for comparison. Similarly if he was head of the household when the 1921 Censuses were taken in early June, then the declaration should be signed off by him.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, SMF Marty said:

Thanks guys for the replies. He was probably in the Transport Section as his duties involved transportation and distribution of ammunition and supplies. Indeed that is what he was doing at Ypres. He had several horses assigned to him during the war but always preferred to first one. Unfortunately a shell of some kind went off under or beside him killing the horse. As he was on top however he survived as the horse shielded him from the blast. 

The War Diary from the National Archives looks very interesting and I'll have to study it more closely, but from first glance it appears they were based halfway between Cologne and Dusseldorf (they did appear to move about a few times in the same area). George himself was even mentioned as returning from leave on the 9th February.

OC Transport Section would have been a shoe in for an officer of Yeomanry, especially one with pre or early war service.  Forum member Muerrisch recently gave a rundown of that special role within each infantry battalion that you might find of interest :-

“The Transport, under a subaltern officer was a very large organisation.” It included:

1. Thirteen riding horses [two for the commanding officer, one each for 2/ic, adjutant, Quuartermaster,  Medical Officer, MG Officer, Transport Officer, Transport Sergeant and the four company commanders].

2. Twenty six draught horses, eight heavy draught horses and nine pack cobs or mules.

3. There were nine bicycles for the signallers, 26 drivers [of whom four or six were ASC] and 16 vehicles.

4. The vehicles included carts or limbers for ammunition, water and medical supplies, large General Service wagons, travelling kitchens, a machine-gun cart and, in war, any extra useful vehicles picked up along the way.

5. Inevitably there were assorted dogs and cats, and the men themselves tended to be older. They sometimes included those considered by the medical officer to need a break behind the lines in the comforting company of animals.

Edited 14 January by FROGSMILE

[SMF Marty]

This is the  full battalion photograph taken in July. Labelled "9th Battalion, The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles), British Army of the Rhine, July 1919. It hangs in my mother-in-law's (Geo Penny's daughter) house. (Sorry for quality - didn't want to remove it from the frame!) Geo Penny in the front row, immediately to the right of the chap in a lighter coloured jacket.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, SMF Marty said:

This is the  full battalion photograph taken in July. Labelled "9th Battalion, The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles), British Army of the Rhine, July 1919. It hangs in my mother-in-law's (Geo Penny's daughter) house. (Sorry for quality - didn't want to remove it from the frame!) Geo Penny in the front row, immediately to the right of the chap in a lighter coloured jacket.

 

 

A good photo to have.  That’s very clearly him alright.

To me it has the look of a final photograph after the battalion had been reduced to cadre and was about to be disbanded.

Edited 16 January by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

1 hour ago, SMF Marty said:

Labelled "9th Battalion, The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles), British Army of the Rhine, July 1919.

Interesting. Many of the Officers and at least one of the Senior NCO's appear to be wearing a medal ribbon which is the same as that worn by George Penny. But I'm only spotting one other rank wearing it - (btw, that's not a full Battalion

I think it may be the same ribbon on display on two of the NCO's on the other picture you've kindly posted.

Medals and badges are not my strong point, and hopefully I've got it right this time!

Tthe British War Medal wasn't authorised by an Army Order until the 26th July 1919 and the first 250 miles of ribbon was issued to stores on the 4th August 1919. The Victory Medal authorisation followed subsequently. So if the picture was taken in July 1919, the most likely medal ribbon on display is the one used for both the 1914 Star and the 1914/15 Star.

As George was commissioned in 1917 that would make it likely he had seen service in a Theatre of War while in the ranks and before the 1st January 1916.

I'm still not finding a Medal Index Card for him, so he may never have actually applied for the medals.

His service prior to his commissioning may be set out in a piece that appeared in the edition of the Buchan Observer and East Aberdeenshire Advertiser dated 25th September 1917. It can be sourced in full either via subscription to the British Newspaper Archive, or via the relevant subscription level to either FindMyPast and (I believe) Ancestry.  You may also like the other piece from post-war.

Image courtesy the British Newspaper Archive.

Cheers,
Peter