Machine Gun Corps- Service Numbers- issue dates ?

[JCCambridge]

I am in possession of many letters sent home mentioning training in Zeitoun before the redeployment to France and also action in France/Belgium. At 22 and Lieutenant in MGC his platoon all survived the torpedo attack which he described in graphic detail. Also previous deployment in Gallipoli when 18. 

[kenf48]

20 hours ago, Lincspoacher said:

Hello pleased to have any use of this thread made! Not sure if you have already seen this old topic on the event you are studying?

Whilst noting your comment above we have received a request to split this conversation, which as suggested would be better conducted by PM as it is considered " non-canon to the original thread", which I think some members considered to be a project on MGC numbers rather than individual histories.

The loss of the Leasowe Castle has been discussed many times most recently by the instigator of the messages on this thread

Thank you for your consideration

[MartyG]

If it is of any interest to you, my great uncle William Daniel Griffin joined the KRRC in February 1916 with number R/18533 and, according to his Statement of Services, transferred to the MGC on 12 May of that year and was given the number 35975, although his Army Forms W.3068 and O.1089 both state 11 May 1916 as date of transfer.

I should add his details to Craig’s database.

Private Griffin’s records are the most comprehensive and complete that I found whilst researching family members. He was posted to 59 Company on 16 September 1916 and to 199 Company on 7 November 1917.

Form W.3226, the date of which is illegible,has him listed as being in 41st Battalion and Army Form B.120 of 19 July 1917 says, I think, No. 3 Battalion MGC.

Martin

 

(Images courtesy of Ancestry)

Edited 18 May , 2022 by MartyG

[Lincspoacher]

Thank you kenf48 for steering us back on topic I've sent a PM as suggested about the other subject.

I'll take a look at the records you posted martyG to extract any exact dates from your ancestor's service for the database and will PM you if I make any other discoveries.

[MartyG]

5 hours ago, Lincspoacher said:

Thank you kenf48 for steering us back on topic I've sent a PM as suggested about the other subject.

I'll take a look at the records you posted martyG to extract any exact dates from your ancestor's service for the database and will PM you if I make any other discoveries.

Thank you very much. There were about 40 or so pages on Ancestry, including a couple of duplicates, but I thought posting every one would be a bit much and they probably may not all be relevant in terms of exact dates and the database.

Edited 18 May , 2022 by MartyG

[Buffnut453]

Hey All,

I just stumbled across this thread, which is serendipitous since I only discovered a few weeks ago that a distant relation served in the MGC.  His name was Alfred James Ellison.  He served in the 1/5th West Lancs (Regt No. 1999) and later in the MGC (Regt No. 23867).  Alfred's MIC shows he went to France on 12 Feb 1915.  He survived the War to be disembodied on 25 Feb 1919.  

Can anyone help hone in on the date when he transferred to the MGC?  I'm guessing he was a member of the machine gun platoon while with the 1/5th South Lancs....but I'd appreciate any confirmation or contradiction of that assumption.

Many thanks,
Mark

[kenf48]

2 hours ago, Buffnut453 said:

Can anyone help hone in on the date when he transferred to the MGC?  

12th September 1916

The service record of 1615 Mills (engaged 19.3.12 St Helens) has survived in some detail and shows he embarked to the BEF on 7/8/1915 from the  2/5 Bn.  Posted to the 1/5 which seems to have had an initial chequered history i.e. left Brigade February 1915 rejoined January 1916 (see LLT).

Pte Mills was attached to 166 Brigade MG Coy on 10th March 1916 (an initial attachment was quite common - given the date it is a fair assumption he was in the MG Section of his Battalion or at least had some affinity with it his record shows he was a qualified machine gunner).  He was posted into the Corps and renumbered 23863 on 12th September 1916. He was admitted to hospital in 1917 and after convalescence was posted from the MGC Depot at Camiers to 193 Coy.  

Whether or not 23867 Ellison remained with 166 Company, which was merged into 55th Battalion in the March 1918 reorganisation of the Corps, for the duration of the conflict would need further corroboration e.g. casualty lists POW etc.

 

[kenf48]

For the database:-

WO 11 23857 Naylor  - Pte 23883 Parkin would seem to share same formal transfer date from S.Lancs. (1/4 or 1/5 in all probability into 166 Company)

Succeeding series Royal Scots TF

Preceding series R.Lancs TF 

(Medal Rolls)

Authority for transfer as shown on Pte Mills record WO Letter 16/Eastern/494 A.G.2B (S) dated 9.8.1916  (allocated in France - Northern Section GHQ 3rd Echelon).

[JulianB]

For JJ Cambridge and Egypt. There has been quite a bit on Zeitoun (incidentally arabic for olive) if you search for it.

My great grandfather was a staff officer mostly in Cairo but went off to Zeitoun very now and again (according to his diary - [not allowed I thought].

Last time around I was trying to find photographs of Zeitoun in GGfthr's  albums.     I'll search again   (why was dumped with all this stuff - probably not interested !!! - but I was / am amazed.

 

[JCCambridge]

1 hour ago, JulianB said:

For JJ Cambridge and Egypt. There has been quite a bit on Zeitoun (incidentally arabic for olive) if you search for it.

My great grandfather was a staff officer mostly in Cairo but went off to Zeitoun very now and again (according to his diary - [not allowed I thought].

Last time around I was trying to find photographs of Zeitoun in GGfthr's  albums.     I'll search again   (why was dumped with all this stuff - probably not interested !!! - but I was / am amazed.

 

Please don’t throw anything away. Its gold dust. Any images documents or letters home are really valuable sources of information. I have over 100 letters from my grandfather covering 1915 and 1917/18. None from 1916 or early 1917 but this leaves a hole in the story. 
All references to individuals can feed into the forum as well as my own interest in MGC in Egypt. Cheers. John 

[Buffnut453]

15 hours ago, kenf48 said:

For the database:-

WO 11 23857 Naylor  - Pte 23883 Parkin would seem to share same formal transfer date from S.Lancs. (1/4 or 1/5 in all probability into 166 Company)

Succeeding series Royal Scots TF

Preceding series R.Lancs TF 

(Medal Rolls)

Authority for transfer as shown on Pte Mills record WO Letter 16/Eastern/494 A.G.2B (S) dated 9.8.1916  (allocated in France - Northern Section GHQ 3rd Echelon).

Hi Ken,

Many, MANY thanks for both your posts.  12 Sep 1916 it is then.  Really appreciate all the background info and your analysis.  

Kind regards,
Mark

[charlie962]

Can any of you helpful people make some more of the near number exercise I've done re 18/3/1918 compulsory transfers to MGC on this current thread here, please? 

"Rife Brigade & MGC POW - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum" https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/298919-rife-brigade-mgc-pow/#comment-3132882

[Lincspoacher]

Hello JulianB ! finally added the information you provided for the 123rd coy mgc! Terrible number of deaths in that company, but some also had surviving service records to give specific transfer dates and SDGW gave insight into original enlistment units in the UK.

Lincspoacher

[Keith_history_buff]

  

On 23/06/2008 at 08:45, roblat said:

I have just discovered my grandfather was a Sergeant (Ernest George Latham) in the 4thBtn SWB and first saw action on Gallipoli in July 1915 he survived this and the continued on with the regiment. Shortly after this he appears to have been reassigned to the Machine Gun Corps . I would like to know if he would have remained with his original unit or moved as a seperate entity. I have been told that after Gallipoli the 4th Btn SWB operated in the middle east and that is where my relatives believe my great grandfather to have completed his service. However as I understand it the MGC were affiliated to divisional command which was the 38th. The research I have been able to do is confusing as MGC associated with the 38th are reported in action in France/Belgium is it possible that my Great Grandfather fought in both areas? I think his MGC regiment No was 15923 if anyone can help greatly appreciated.

I have looked at the pages for the SWB but I am still unclear on what practically happend to the men who were reassigned to the MGC.

His Silver War Badge tells us that he enlisted on 22 Aug 1914, for the duration of the war, under the regular terms of service introduced by Army Order 296 dated 6 August 1914. Whilst the medal index card tells us that he arrived at Gallipoli in July 1915 with the rest of the 4th Battalion, soon after he was wounded. He is listed as "Wounded" on the Casualty List issued by the War Office, dated 23 Aug 1915.  I am going to guess that he was evacuated to the UK.

There is a surviving service record for 15920 George Robertson Wallace. He was transferred to the MGC (Infantry) No 15 Depot on 1 January 1916, so would assume that 15923 Ernest George Latham transferred at about the same time.

The recent hosting of the MGC personnel on the Discovery website certainly makes it easier to find others in the number sequence.

 

 

 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/c4f00b9a-abd1-4226-82c5-5fad3667056d

[Keith_history_buff]

As per a prior post in this very thread, the  21280 - 21310 numbers were allocated to men from the 2nd south wales borderers to the 87th coy Mgc when established in the 16.2.16 at Suez, in 87th Brigade 29th Division before going to france. Given that he is not in a batch of SWB men, I would think he was not part of a bulk transfer from this infantry regiment.

[AndySab]

I've been researching an MGC MM winner. He was transfered with 23 other men from 2nd Bn Suffolk Regiment to 8 coy on 22nd January 1916. Their numbers were 17493 - 17516 inclusive. 

 

I hope that's useful. 

[kenf48]

18 hours ago, AndySab said:

I've been researching an MGC MM winner. He was transfered with 23 other men from 2nd Bn Suffolk Regiment to 8 coy on 22nd January 1916. Their numbers were 17493 - 17516 inclusive. 

 

I hope that's useful. 

Welcome to the GWF

As somebody said 'every little helps'

Thanks for posting it all adds to the database

[charlie962]

18 hours ago, AndySab said:

I've been researching an MGC MM winner. He was transfered with 23 other men from 2nd Bn Suffolk Regiment to 8 coy on 22nd January 1916. Their numbers were 17493 - 17516 inclusive. 

 

I hope that's useful. 

I agree with KenF's remarks. 

Although I originated the question the thread relies entirely on the subsequent work of others with database updates etc that have proved very helpful. 

Charlie

Edited 6 November , 2023 by charlie962

[AndySab]

It's worth noting for anyone else who finds themselves researching a man from 2nb Battalion Suffolk Regiment who went into the Machine Gun Corps that the information on the Vickers Machine Gun blog site is at least partially wrong. They have the battalion MG section transferring to the 76th Company in April 1916 but 4 guns and 24 men went to the 8th Company on 22nd January 1916. 

I only managed to track this down by finding a pension records card for one of the 24 that had a mention of the 8th company. The 8th's war diary is a gold mine, enlisted men are mentioned by name and number frequently, whether wounded, sent on a course or promoted, the detail is there. 

[BillyH]

On 06/01/2020 at 13:19, Neill Gilhooley said:

Here's an up to date graph from Craig's database:

Hi Neill (or anyone else).  Has this excellent chart ever been updated?

BillyH.

[Neill Gilhooley]

On 06/01/2020 at 13:19, Neill Gilhooley said:

Here's an up to date graph from Craig's database:

A 2023 update from Craig's database... (I'd add the excel but it is not a permitted extension)

 

[charlie962]

Good man!

[TomWW1]

31 minutes ago, Neill Gilhooley said:

A 2023 update from Craig's database... (I'd add the excel but it is not a permitted extension)

 

Brilliant Work Neil Mate! 

Edited 14 November , 2023 by TomWW1

[BillyH]

Thanks for this update Neill, your hard work is much appreciated!

BillyH.

[Neill Gilhooley]

Just looking at the trendlines, they imply:

Men joined the MGC at approximately 4,700 per month

The Other Ranks strength increased at ~3,700 per month (Statistics of the Military Effort of the British Empire during the Great War, 1914-1920, above annually, below monthly (cavalry + infantry) gives 3,728 per month March 1916 to October 1918)

Therefore about 1,000 men left the strength per month. CWGC gives me 1,634 war dead total searching on 'machine gun corps' which suggests many are listed under their original unit. Those who know something about the MGC (not me!) might know how cavalry and infantry divided their service numbers up.