Machine Gun Corps- Service Numbers- issue dates ?

[Lincspoacher]

21696 - 21710 seem to be volunteers to the 9th coy Mgc in 9th brigade 3rd division from the Royal Fusiliers, Royal Scots Fusiliers, Lincolnshire Regiment and the West Yorkshire Regiment

 

Edited 20 September , 2020 by Lincspoacher
error

[Lincspoacher]

21712 - 21741 seem to be volunteers from the 1st/5th Royal Berkshire Regiment, 1st/1st or 1st/4th Ox and Bucks LI and the 1st/5th Gloucestershire Regiment? I have checked references like being in the same unit or disembarkation dates that look to support an identification of these men as being in the 145th coy Mgc, 145th brigade of the 48th south midland division?

Edited 20 September , 2020 by Lincspoacher

[Tom Westhead]

I have a man to add it may tie in and provide something useful in the M.G.C. numbers sequence.

 

Stuart Frank Mathews,  1/4 Suffolk Regiment,  PTE,  2311. 

 

Date of entry France 8.11.14

 

 

Stuart then transfered into the No 98 Coy,  M.G.C.  In the Field France and was renumbered 22823.

 

His date of transfer to the No 98 Coy M.G.C. was 6/7 July 1916.

 

Of note as per service records Stuart was time expired and re-enlisted on July 6 1916  into M.G.C. and received his new service number.

 

He held the post of Coy Accountant so assume he was at the M.G.C. Depot Camiers.

 

 

 

ADDED THE ABOVE INFORMATION TO THE DATABASE created by  ss002d6252.                                                

 

 

 

Edited 21 September , 2020 by Tom Westhead

[Lincspoacher]

Thank you Tom Westhead it always helps to have details from primary sources for a soldiers' service!

 

[Lincspoacher]

 21742 - 21758 seem to be volunteers from the 1st/4th, 1st/5th, 1st/6th or 1st/7th Northumberland Fusiliers? I have checked references like being in the same unit or disembarkation dates that look to support an identification of these men as being in the 149th coy Mgc, 149th brigade of the 50th Northumbrian division?

[Lincspoacher]

21759 - 21772 seem to be volunteers from the Gloucestershire Regiment and one man from the Worcestershire Regiment ? I have checked references like being in the same unit or disembarkation dates that look to support an identification of these men as being in the 144th coy Mgc, 144th brigade of the 48th south midland division?

[Lincspoacher]

21773 - 21804 seem to be a large transfer from the 5th South Staffordshire Regiment TF may be of previous Mg sections they would have been veterans of 1915 and had been in the process of redeploying to Egypt in the beginning of 1916 so left their regiment at this time ? I have checked references like being in the same unit or disembarkation dates that look to support an identification of these men as being in the 137th coy Mgc, 137th brigade of the 46th north midland division?

[Lincspoacher]

21805 - 21834 seem to be a large transfer from the 6th South Staffordshire Regiment TF may be of previous Mg sections they would have been veterans of 1915 and had been in the process of redeploying to Egypt in the beginning of 1916 so left their regiment at this time ? I have checked references like being in the same unit or disembarkation dates that look to support an identification of these men as being in the 137th coy Mgc, 137th brigade of the 46th north midland division?

[Lincspoacher]

21835 - 21867 seem to be a large transfer from the 5th North Staffordshire Regiment TF may be of previous Mg sections they would have been veterans of 1915 and had been in the process of redeploying to Egypt in the beginning of 1916 so left their regiment at this time ? I have checked references like being in the same unit or disembarkation dates that look to support an identification of these men as being in the 137th coy Mgc, 137th brigade of the 46th north midland division?

[Lincspoacher]

 21868 - 21883 seem to be a large transfer from the 6th North Staffordshire Regiment TF may be of previous Mg sections they would have been veterans of 1915 and had been in the process of redeploying to Egypt in the beginning of 1916 so left their regiment at this time and look to be the the last group? I have checked references like being in the same unit or disembarkation dates that look to support an identification of these men as being in the 137th coy Mgc, 137th brigade of the 46th north midland division?

[Lincspoacher]

back to the before time after filling that gap so 9300 - 9320, senior Nco's various units regular army.

 

[Lincspoacher]

9321 -9336 added seems to end an alphabetical list of chosen men who became senior NCOs or officers that were made instructors in the Mgc or were sent to train in new units that looks to start around 9264?

Edited 26 September , 2020 by Lincspoacher

[andrew moberly]

On 08/06/2020 at 23:44, Lincspoacher said:

just got the next batch 21386 - 21419 seems to be mainly 1st Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers who were at Gallipoli then as before joined the 87th coy Mgc in Egypt. Some were also 2nd battalion men who 1st served in france in 1914 and later transferred to the 1st battalion then to the Mgc, That could be the 87th brigade series of men done now and 88th brigade is next?

The 87 MGC War Diary for June 1916 contains in an appendix a list of the NCOs and men transferred to 87 MGC in Feb /March/April 1916.     Most of these men already appear in your database at     https://c1abt321.caspio.com/dp/c6396000b3b2cd94454e42e39713 but there are a few additional men not included in your list eg those with service numbers 21276 to 21278, 21281 to 21291 and so on.     The War diary is available online (here, I think -https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353586).     I copied out the list some years ago and it is attached in case it helps.    

Copy of NCOs and men joined 87 MGC Feb to April 1916.csv

[superblue]

Good morning. 
 

I have just added an MGC casualty to the collection, purchased as he is a loca casualty. This is a new unit in my collection to research and whilst trying to write him up I came across this topic which has helped narrow things down a bit. 
He was 122362 Pte J. W. Cupit, previously 48955 North Staffs Regt. No papers survive for him. Whilst I have no idea of his original enlistment date with the North Staffs, I do think that by using the excellent info within this topic I can narrow his transfer date to late Sept/early Oct 1917. 
 

Can any members help any further than this? 

Thanks in advance.

 

Shane 
 

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, superblue said:

Good morning. 
 

I have just added an MGC casualty to the collection, purchased as he is a loca casualty. This is a new unit in my collection to research and whilst trying to write him up I came across this topic which has helped narrow things down a bit. 
He was 122362 Pte J. W. Cupit, previously 48955 North Staffs Regt. No papers survive for him. Whilst I have no idea of his original enlistment date with the North Staffs, I do think that by using the excellent info within this topic I can narrow his transfer date to late Sept/early Oct 1917. 
 

Can any members help any further than this? 

Thanks in advance.

 

Shane 
 

Less than 12 months total service, based on his war gratuity.\

 

The service number #48955 dates from around end Aug/ early Sep 1917

Craig

[kenf48]

6 hours ago, superblue said:

He was 122362 Pte J. W. Cupit, previously 48955 North Staffs Regt.

 

He was serving with 15th Battalion MGC when killed in action on the 28th March 1918. Soldiers effects show his war gratuity of £5 was paid to his widow Sarah.

A £5 gratuity indicates less than 12 months service (acknowledgement to Craig and his gratuity calculator).

His North Staffordshire number indicates he was posted to the 3r Bn. at Wallsend between the 2nd and the 7th September 1917 on mobilisation. It appears he was called up and posted to the Sherwoods on the 4th, possibly with 48962 Booth(numbers preceding this indicate previous service in HS units posted mainly from London).

 

 

[superblue]

Thanks for looking and for the replies gents. That certainly helps, some useful info there. One thing I did notice is that I posted the wrong service number for the North Staffs. It was in fact 48995 and not 55. My mistake. 
 

A local newspaper article suggests that he was originally with 225 Coy MGC, No.3 platoon. From what I’ve found using the Long Long Trail, they were amalgamated into the 15th Btn MGC on 17th March confirmed on CWGC for his date of death. 
 

Cheers 

 

Shane 

[ss002d6252]

9 minutes ago, superblue said:

Thanks for looking and for the replies gents. That certainly helps, some useful info there. One thing I did notice is that I posted the wrong service number for the North Staffs. It was in fact 48995 and not 55. My mistake. 
 

A local newspaper article suggests that he was originally with 225 Coy MGC, No.3 platoon. From what I’ve found using the Long Long Trail, they were amalgamated into the 15th Btn MGC on 17th March confirmed on CWGC for his date of death. 
 

Cheers 

 

Shane 

It would be on or shortly after 7 Sep 1917.

Craig

[superblue]

4 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

It would be on or shortly after 7 Sep 1917.

Craig

Thanks Craig. I didn’t think there would be much difference from the forty numbers higher up. Appreciate you taking the time to help. 
 

Shane

[AndrewSid]

Excellent thread.  The MGC is somewhat on an enigma or nightmare when it comes to unpicking the units and men it seems!

 

I’m researching my great uncle Sgt Sydney Heseltine.  He survived the war receiving the DCM in April 1918.  His MGC service number is 60836.  He served in 227 MG Coy and then D Coy 29 MGC Bn when they re-organised the MG Coys into single battalions in mid Feb 1918. 

 

227 went to France in July 1917 and made up the fourth Coy in the Division,  with the other three Coys being the ones in place and numbered and aligned to the respective brigades (86,87 & 88).

 

The work done on this thread  means I can pin down his entry into the MGC as being 23rd of September 1916 give or take a day or two and I have a picture of him in MGC uniform at Grantham on Oct 14 1916.  

 

I also know he joined up in April 1915, and I suspect like many researchers I’m struggling to find out what he did for 18 months before the MGC.  No service record of course.  His medal card only has MGC info so he is unlikely to have been overseas.

 

What is interesting is that he joined the MGC at the same time as 4 other men who all when leaving in 1919 had the same “disembodied” status.  This I’m very reliably informed means he was in a Territorial Force (TF) unit.  The disembodied status isn’t that common in the medal roll book that’s below.   They must have all arrived together given that the MGC was processing a few hundred new men a day.  

 

Sadly the other 4 men have no records and there isn’t an obvious geographical link.  Sydney came from Colne in East Lancashire and it would be odd if  he joined any other TF apart from the local E Lancs  Infantry ones but who knows.

 

Can any MGC experts push me in a certain direction?

 

 

 

[kenf48]

4 hours ago, AndrewSid said:

 

I also know he joined up in April 1915, and I suspect like many researchers I’m struggling to find out what he did for 18 months before the MGC.  No service record of course.  His medal card only has MGC info so he is unlikely to have been overseas.

 

What is interesting is that he joined the MGC at the same time as 4 other men who all when leaving in 1919 had the same “disembodied” status.  This I’m very reliably informed means he was in a Territorial Force (TF) unit.  The disembodied status isn’t that common in the medal roll book that’s below.   They must have all arrived together given that the MGC was processing a few hundred new men a day.  

 

Your assumption they must have arrived together is undoubtedly correct.  At this stage of the war two MGC officers visited Home Command units to identify suitable recruits. I had a copy of the original Army Order but it seems to have been lost.

 

Therefore we can say he was in a Home Service Battalion of the TF.  The option to enlist in the TF for Home Service continued until March 1915.  From that date men were obliged to sign the Imperial Obligation to serve overseas on joining (in actuality many had done so before the cut off).  In March 1916 and the introduction of the Military Service Act all soldiers were sent where most needed.  As he joined up during the period of voluntary enlistment there was, as you suggest an element of choice. In April 1915 there was a further reorganisation, and sixty eight Provisional Battalions formed for service at 'Home'.  These were men who for one reason or another were no able to serve oveseas.  Their duties were mainly 'coastal defence' and general garrison and guarding duties. If posted to one of these battalions it may have broken the geographical link.

 

I notice, to avoid further duplication there is an extensive thread on this man elsewhere on the forum

 

 

 

[AndrewSid]

Ken -  thank you for that.  Fascinating stuff on how they “scouted” round the country to swell the ranks of the MGC.  

 

He was certainly old enough to go overseas being born in Dec 1895.  I’m still curious why he would have joined a TF unit as a volunteer in April 1915?  Noting the Home Service option had gone.  Perhaps it was because they were the newest closest unit?  Or as you say its where his friends were going.

 

Can I ask what you mean by “have you considered his age and those recruited at the same time?”  Do you mean a search for men who joined the same time from his village or workplace (cotton mill)

 

Thanks 

[kenf48]

15 minutes ago, AndrewSid said:

Can I ask what you mean by “have you considered his age and those recruited at the same time?”  Do you mean a search for men who joined the same time from his village or workplace (cotton mill)

I meant the age of those TF Soldiers around him but I see Peter has done that on your other thread.

 

The ACI stated (I seem to have mangled the number heigh-ho! sorry about that)

 

'596. Transfer of Infantry Recruits to the Machine Gun Corps.

 

1. A.C.I. 1545 of 1916 is cancelled, and the returns therein called for will no longer be rendered.

 

2. Two officers of the M.G.C. will be detailed to inspect Reserve Infantry Battalions in Commands with a view to selecting sufficient men of the necessary standard required to complete the establishment of the M.G.C. (Infantry).

 

3. One officer will inspect the men in Reserve Infantry Battalions in the Scottish, Northern and Western Commands, and the other officer will inspect those of the Eastern and Southern Commands and London District.

 

4. The inspecting officers will inform the O.C. the Reserve Infantry Battalion of the number of men selected by him, and the O.C. the unit will then immediately grant the men their 4 days' Expeditionary Force leave.

 

5. The O.C. the Reserve Infantry Battalion will inform the G.O.C.-in-C. in whose Command the battalion is stationed by telegram of the number of men selected by the inspecting officer.

 

6. The G.O.C.-in-C. the Command will inform "Forcedly (A.G. 9) London" by telegram at 5 p.m. every Saturday night of the number of men selected by the inspecting officer during the previous week when further instructions will be issued regarding the number of men to be sent to the M.G.C.

 

7. The men ordered to be sent to Grantham will be dealt with under the conditions laid down in A.C.I. 2098 of 1916, except that para. 1 will not apply, as the men will have already received their 4 days' leave.'

 

As to why he joined a TF unit, there was competition rather than co-operation for recruits, although later the County Associations did raise some New Army battalions, but we cannot define an individual's motivation.  Which is what makes it so intriguing.

[AndrewSid]

Ken -  again thanks.

 

i will dig deeper into those TF  men joining at Grantham around him.  I will also see if the local newspaper archives throw up any clues.

 

Ive posted this pic before but its before he arrived at Grantham in Oct 16, well 90% sure (no LCpl rank).  Standard plain battle dress and who knows what that shoulder regimental insignia is, shame he didn’t hold his hat but i reckon his Dad (seated) told him not too...

 

 

 

 

 

[kenf48]

By no means a uniform specialist but jodphurs(?) and the lanyard suggestive but by no means exclusive of mounted role, driver maybe