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Remembered Today:

Machine Gun Corps- Service Numbers- issue dates ?


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4 hours ago, Neill Gilhooley said:

A little glance at progress

Great way to present progress and even the result.

 

What would explain the big anomolies? I know it can be difficult to read service records.

 

Small variations are presumably just block allocations being used up in parallel ?

 

Charlie

 

 

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22 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Great way to present progress and even the result.

 

What would explain the big anomolies? I know it can be difficult to read service records.

 

Small variations are presumably just block allocations being used up in parallel ?

 

Charlie

 

 

I graphed similar with my DLI men - came in handy for spotting date errors. I suspect that'll explain some of the odd outliers.

 

The larger outlier trends are probably reserved groups of numbers being allocated bit by bit.

 

Craig

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Neill Gilhooley

I meant to say thanks to Craig for setting up the database, I'm becoming increasingly forgetful.

As an aside, the 9/RS numbers are in two main batches: the originals of the Machine Gun Section became ~23890; then a far bigger batch in ~October 1916 ~66,200.

 

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  • 2 months later...
On ‎20‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 09:03, JulianB said:

OK let me provide some numbering data for the 123 coy MGC. This unit was formed in Grantham in January 1916 but was renumbered 123 on 13.06.1916 as they left Gramtham though they officially 'landed' in France on the 17th - the day their WD started. I have all these men in a database but have extracted only numbers and dates of joining the MGC (often from a former unit) and then joining 123 Coy.  I have added a few items that might provide a TAQ or TPQ for their presence within the ranks.  Needless top say, there are quite a few other names but for which I have no numbrs - gleaned from the various WD and OOs.    This is still very much a work in progress and there might be glitches ommissions etc.

The blue and red numbers here are only to show ‘runs’

Bold numbers are ‘probables’

 

 

 

Name                          No                   join MGC       join 123 Coy   KIA

 

Baxter, CQMS, WHJ  4008

 

Hood, Sgt JW,            4942                                        CQMS 28.1.18. 

Fenton Pte. Horace E. 9112               

Pumford, L/Cpl JH,    14394                                                              KIA 7.6.17  

Cooper, L/Cpl S          14557             

Avis, Sgt, WJ,             16930               

Fisher, CSM EW       18187             

Oates, Sgt T,               20732              forms garrison 12.3.17  

Parker, Pte T,              20823                                                              KIA 12.8.17

*Horridge, Sgt J          27427             

Sears, Pte HG,            28873                                                              KIA 7.6.17

Keane, Sgt Roland    28876                 

Donohoe, L/Cpl J,       28877                                                              KIA 10.6.17

Arliss, Pte C,               28969              (Artiss in SDGW !)               KIA 26.9.17 

Robson, Pte W,           28971                                                              KIA 20.2.17

Baker, Cpl Joseph     28972              forms garrison 12.3.1917

Judson, Cpl T,             28976                                                              DoW 24.9.16 

Hands, L/Cpl JH,        28981                                                              KIA 31.7.17

Thompson, Sgt Harry 289114          forms garrison 1. 3.1917

Scottorn, CQMS,  JV, 29115             left for UK as a candidate for commission, 20.1.17.

Barnes, Pte C,                         29117                                                              KIA 31.5.17

Booth, Pte F,               29119                                                              KIA 23.9.17

*Spencer, Pte WH,     29122                                                             KIA 19.1.17.

George, Cpl JT,           29401              sent on AA course 18.1.17;    KIA  21.2.17. 

Chandler, Pte HA,      29402                                                             KIA 29.9.16

*Staveley, Pte L,         29407                                                              KIA 15.9.16

*Muggeridge, Pte W, 30331                                                              KIA 24.7.16

*Pratt, Pte RE,            30334                                                              KIA 17.1.17

Davis, Pte T,               30336                                                              KIA 29.11.16

Wren, Pte EA,             30338                                                              KIA 1.10.16

Fisher, Pte C,              30343                                                              KIA 7.6.17

Curtis, Pte E.               30356               

Bridgewater, Pte CT, 30359               In hosp home October 1916.

Steer, Pte JT,               30363                                                              KIA 17.9.16

Gifford, Pte WT,        30366                                                              KIA 28.5.17

Kershaw, Pte J,           39499                                                              KIA 16.9.17

Moore, Sjt J                 42808             

Adair, Pte T,               43291                                                              KIA 20.2.17

Whife, Pte E,              45351                                                              KIA 28.5.17

Love, Pte FC,              45486                                                              KIA 4.3.18

Stokes, Pte R,             45760                                                              KIA 8.10.16

Woulidge, Cpl LB      45870                                      17.1.17;           KIA 13.10.18.

Hall, L/Cpl RC            45975                                                              KIA 26.9.17  

Nash, L/Cpl  HA,        46308                                                              KIA 31.7.17 

Burrill, Pte A,              46309                                                              KIA 7.6.17

Raines, Pte AE,           53513                                                              KIA 22.6.17

Ralston, Pte J,            53566              2.03.16            05.10.16          KIA 28.5.17

Dawes, Pte PC,           64306                                                              KIA 27.6.17

Hardman, Pte A,         64494                                                              KIA 30.6.17

Brady, Pte JA,            68197                                     28.2.17;           KIA 31.7.17

Armstrong, Pte. John 70902             

Lumsden, Pte RW,     71921                                                              KIA 26.7.17

Saunders, L/Cpl AC   72100             

Walker, Pte T,             72125                                                              KIA 1.8.17

Challinger, Pte R,        72126                                                              DoW 9.10.17

Barker, Pte L,              72130                                                             KIA 20.2.17

Arculus, Cpl LJW,      73586                                                              KIA 24/25.7.17 

Helliwell, Pte JT,         82486                                                              KIA 28.6.17   

Payne, Pte HJ,             85422                                                              KIA 5.8.17

Evans, Pte. A.W.J.      87829             

Weir, Pte A,                87850                                                              KIA 27.9.17

Neville, Pte HA,         89352                                                              KIA 26.9.17

Drinkall, Pte A,           89652                                                              KIA 31.7.17

Phelps, Pte JW,           90077                                                              KIA 31.7.17

Hancock, Pte JA,        97755                                                              KIA 29.6.17

Morris, Pte A,             97761                                                              KIA 26.9.17

Slack, Pte J                  97764                                      16.06,1917.

Dudderidge, Pte HO, 99973                                                              KIA 26.9.17

Sexton, Pte SJ,            103460                                                            KIA 24.9.17

Keighley, Pte. John F. 104026                       

Waters, Pte WH,         104269                                                            KIA 24.9.17

Eyles, Pte TF,              104352                                                            KIA 26.9.17

Barnett, Pte H             137034                                    28.2.17

 

Just for information - F.C.Love was killed in a troop train accident travelling on train to St Michel, Modane.  My grandfather is listed Horace Fenton.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Knowing little about military history or terminology I don’t quite understand the detail of this thread, but what would significance of the number 1101 be? This is the number of Daniel Maledy (various spellings of surname)  who was in the Motor Machine Gun Corps. Received Victory medal and British war medal. There is little more information available about him, assume his records are lost.Thanks.

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1 hour ago, HFS said:

Knowing little about military history or terminology I don’t quite understand the detail of this thread, but what would significance of the number 1101 be? This is the number of Daniel Maledy (various spellings of surname)  who was in the Motor Machine Gun Corps. Received Victory medal and British war medal. There is little more information available about him, assume his records are lost.Thanks.

 Welcome to the forum

 

I suggest you have a look at the parent site the Long Long Trail if you want to understand military terminology link top right

In particular the section on the Machine Gun Corps https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/machine-gun-corps-in-the-first-world-war/

 

This thread is an attempt to create a database showing when a man joined the MGC by reference to his service number, it's not concerned with queries regarding individual soldiers.

 

When the MGC was formed the MGC (Infantry) began numbering from 3001.  The Motor Machine Gun Corps took the first 3000 numbers, so 1101 is in the range for the MMGC.  The Medal Rolls show he was in the MMG (Royal Artillery) which means he enlisted in the MMG Section prior to the formation of the MGC, Probably in May 1915.  When the MGC was formed in October 1915 he retained the same number.  He was not posted on active service overseas until after the 31 December 1915 (No 14-15 Star entitlement).

 

Ken

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 23/11/2018 at 21:11, kenf48 said:

 Welcome to the forum

 

I suggest you have a look at the parent site the Long Long Trail if you want to understand military terminology link top right

In particular the section on the Machine Gun Corps https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/machine-gun-corps-in-the-first-world-war/

 

This thread is an attempt to create a database showing when a man joined the MGC by reference to his service number, it's not concerned with queries regarding individual soldiers.

 

When the MGC was formed the MGC (Infantry) began numbering from 3001.  The Motor Machine Gun Corps took the first 3000 numbers, so 1101 is in the range for the MMGC.  The Medal Rolls show he was in the MMG (Royal Artillery) which means he enlisted in the MMG Section prior to the formation of the MGC, Probably in May 1915.  When the MGC was formed in October 1915 he retained the same number.  He was not posted on active service overseas until after the 31 December 1915 (No 14-15 Star entitlement).

 

Ken

 

 

Thanks, that is very helpful. I have looked at The Long Long Trail, it was what prompted me to ask the question about the number. I understand most of the records are lost, so it’s unlikely I will find out more about his war service. 

Helen

 

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All Together Now

Is there any way to find out which MGC someone transferred in to originally? I have been trying to work out which MGC my great grandfather William Topping (2694) served with at first. He went out to France on 1/11/1914 with the Liverpool Scottish, and I have a leave note that is likely to have been from July 1915 where he was still with them. However his medal index card has his MGC number as 24578 so I assume from the list posted on page 1 he transferred over on 8th March 1916.

 

My guess is that he will have gone in to the 166th MGC as the Liverpool Scottish were part of 166th Infantry Brigade when the 55th West Lancs Division was reformed in Jan 1916. Further to this, I have official docs from 1918 of him in the 55th Bn MGC which was formed in March 1918 consisting of 164th, 165th, 166th and 196th MGC.

 

It would be great to know for certain that he was in the 166th from March 1916 to March 1918, but if there is no way of knowing, is my guess likely to be correct?

 

Thanks

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  • 2 months later...

I am not sure if this is the right place to post this information. I have not tried to add it to the database as for reasons which will follow I am not exactly clear on exactly which date the numbers were allocated:

 

I am working on Pte/L/Cpl Charles Stormont Nicoll, MGC, 20197, killed in 1917 serving with 176 Company MGC. He was in the original contingent of 1/7 Gordon Highlanders (SN 610). After a week or so of puzzling it dawned on me that he was probably an original member of 153 Company MGC.

!53 Company was formed at Fremont on 12 January 1916. On 23 March 1916, the War Diary records that the TF men had been asked to re-attest in the Regular Army and that 114 had so far signed forms, but there were a few men who were away and still had to sign forms.

 

On 28 March the War Diary notes that orders had arrived which included the serial numbers for 124 men who had re-attested. Alas it does not say what the numbers were. However between 5 and 20 May the War diary list the first casualties:

5 May

Pte J Milne 20210 (kia)

Pte H Church 20201 (slightly wounded)

20 May

L/Cpl J Hunter 20142 (kia)

Pte H Cunningham 20152 (kia)

Pte W Goudie 20224 (wounded - died the following day)

Pte G Young 20137 (wounded)

 

From my point of view they neatly bracket my man's 20197.

 

I hope this is of use to someone.

RM

 

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Good idea !  I've got more 123 men to add to my database. The number sequences are quite clear - but then, there must be the same sequences with other companies.

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14 hours ago, rolt968 said:

!53 Company was formed at Fremont on 12 January 1916

I'm not sure this helps either, especially if you look at the 'noise' in the plot, so caveats galore, but a linear trendline on the numbers we have puts 20197 at 9 Feb 16. This looks like a batch so there is every reason to suspect some variation from this anyway.

Edited by Neill Gilhooley
typo
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2 hours ago, Neill Gilhooley said:

I'm not sure this helps either, especially if you look at the 'noise' in the plot, so caveats galore, but a linear trendline on the numbers we have puts 20197 at 9 Feb 16. This looks like a batch so there is every reason to suspect some variation from this anyway.

That's why I said that I didn't know exactly when the numbers were issued. The men were using their original numbers when the company was formed. 114 had completed forms by 23 March and the new numbers for 124 men arrived in orders on 28 March.

Where would the new numbers have been generated? Had batches been allocated for the newly formed (forming?) companies somewhere before 23 March?

 

For further information, a couple of other numbers:

16 April (at Bray) Pte A E Thomson 10405 was wounded. I am guessing that he may have been one of the seven men who joined from Grantham on 7 March or the three and six reinforcements who joined on 6 and 9 April respectively.

21 April (at Bray)  Pte Randle 9118 (artificer) joined.

 

RM

Edited by rolt968
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  • 3 weeks later...

L/Cpl David Willocks Valentine seems to have been a late transfer into 154 Coy MCG. He was 631, 1/5 Black  and 23061, MGC. He signed his new attestation form on 5 July 1916 - approved on 5 August 1916. There is a full soldier's record in ancestry (and probably in FMP).

 

I haven't read the soldier's record further yet. I ran across him as a cousin (also killed in WW1) of a man I am researching.

RM

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  • 8 months later...

On the recommendation of Open Bolt I have tried to add the part of the information that I had listed elsewhere on to the data base on post 13 of this thread started by ss002d6252 with the unit as Machine gun corps 47th coy and the 1st number 13440

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30 soldiers from the 2nd Battalion Devonshire Regt were transferred to the Machine Gun Corps on the 5th February 1916. The service numbers for this group start at 17548 and end at 17578 - these men formed the 23rd Machine Gun Company, 23rd Brigade, 8th Division. My Grandfathers number was 17551.

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  • 1 month later...

I have just added a series of 18 men joined 12/02/1916 to 15th depot coy from 3rd lincolns 9154 - 9172 and more to complete the series from other sources

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just added gaps series 9202 - 9223 royal fusiliers and prince wales volunteers + others

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Thanks for those ongoing additions. I've referred to this thread (particularly the graph) a number of times and found it most helpful.

Charlie

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Neill Gilhooley

Here's an up to date graph from Craig's database:

MGC_Graph_Jan20.png.a375987b09005a3105c7690d79c522b3.png

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Not used the database in a while due to other things but glad to see it's of use and the data is charting the main sequence relatively well.


Craig

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  • 4 months later...
Lincspoacher

just added new group seem to be ex 10th East Yorks Reg men 9224 - 9231 from mic data

 

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Lincspoacher

just added 9232 - 9246 men from DCLI and A & S highlanders from mic & cwgc records

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Lincspoacher

just added 9247 - 9263 men from Cameron highlanders and few from east lancs reg with data from mic, cwgc the gazette or some newspapers

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