AndrewSid Posted 24 May , 2021 Share Posted 24 May , 2021 A ha - there are three pictures of him. The first and last have him Jodphurs. The middle one is the only dated and is 16 Oct 16 at Grantham with his MGC hat one (seated so can’t see his trousers). He was the Coy transport Sgt in France and when was awarded his DCM. So even if the first photo was taken in the first week or three of his time with the MGC (joined MGC around 23 Sept 16) its difficult to see them sending him straight to a mounted sub unit and giving him the trousers before we next a see him as a LCpl on the 16 Oct. Leans towards a horsy TF unit perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincspoacher Posted 30 May , 2021 Share Posted 30 May , 2021 to add to Mgc database 9337 - 9353 added seems an alphabetical list of chosen men who became senior NCOs or officers that were made instructors in the Mgc or were sent to train in new units Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincspoacher Posted 10 June , 2021 Share Posted 10 June , 2021 added to Mgc database 9354 - 9377 added mixed lot of chosen men who became senior NCOs or officers that were made instructors in the Mgc or were sent to train in new units Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincspoacher Posted 10 June , 2021 Share Posted 10 June , 2021 added to Mgc database 9378 - 9391 added mixed lot of chosen men who became senior NCOs that were made instructors in the Mgc or were sent to train in new unit and 7 ranks from the Kings Own Scottish Borderers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincspoacher Posted 10 June , 2021 Share Posted 10 June , 2021 (edited) added to Mgc database 9392 - 9402 group other ranks from the Royal Highlanders (Black Watch) and Gordon Highlanders Edited 10 June , 2021 by Lincspoacher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincspoacher Posted 11 October , 2021 Share Posted 11 October , 2021 added gap 9405 - 9415 being members of Mgc who at times were with the KOYLI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 1 February , 2022 Share Posted 1 February , 2022 Of interest is a recent thread, where a man joins the RNAS Armoured Cars from 12 Feb to 17 Feb 1918, and is then transferred to MGC (Motors). There are no surviving service record for Machine Gun Corps (Motors) men with service numbers in the range 79800-79899. All of these men appear to have likewise transferred, and on the medal roll, none has a rank lower than Sergeant. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/295895-frederick-robert-hill-st-george-cross-4th-class/ 80196 Harold Stuart Pollard transferred in the MGC (Motors) on 20 April 1918; he has the rank of Private. He has a surviving service record and is mentioned on page 1 of this very thread. Two men with similar numbers are commemorated in Iraq by the CWGC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincspoacher Posted 16 May , 2022 Share Posted 16 May , 2022 (edited) Sorry I'm back! just added 9415 - 9427 men from black watch, royal warwickshire regiment and others who seem to have trained in Mgc then returned to original units for a time then back to Mgc Edited 16 May , 2022 by Lincspoacher error Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCCambridge Posted 17 May , 2022 Share Posted 17 May , 2022 Hello. I am relatively new to researching MGC being grandson of a survivor of the torpedoed ship HMT Leasowe Castle on 27th May 1918. At least 271 and 272 MGC Companies lost men and I am keen to find out if this ship was the only member of that 7 ship convoy which was transporting MGC troops at that time. Does this ring any bells with anyone? I can provide ship’s names if required Thanks. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCCambridge Posted 17 May , 2022 Share Posted 17 May , 2022 46 minutes ago, JCCambridge said: Hello. I am relatively new to researching MGC being grandson of a survivor of the torpedoed ship HMT Leasowe Castle on 27th May 1918. At least 271 and 272 MGC Companies lost men and I am keen to find out if this ship was the only member of that 7 ship convoy which was transporting MGC troops at that time. Does this ring any bells with anyone? I can provide ship’s names if required Thanks. John I should add a bit more detail to this. The Convoy in which HMT Leasowe Castle was torpedoed on 27th May 1918 included six other ships: HMT/HMAT’s Caledonian, Indarra , Kaisar i Hind, Canberra, Malwa, and Ormonde. They were escorted by several Japanese naval ships and at the time of attack also by HMS Lily. More details available. Much more if required. HMT Leasowe Castle carried 2903 troops mostly MGC personnel. Members from South Notts Hussars, Berkshire and Buckinghamshire Yeomanry, Warwickshire Yeomanry and 271st Infantry MGC were lost totalling 96 including 7 at least ship’s company. I find it hard to believe that only the HMT Leasowe Castle carried MGC personnel as I understand many more than these were selected and trained in Kantara elsewhere in Egypt early in 1918 before being redeployed in France after convoy transport from Alexandria in a regular series of convoys in 1918. Please forgive if this is not just directly related to specific names and lists in this thread. I am clutching at straws maybe but any help or comments will be gratefully received. Thanks. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincspoacher Posted 17 May , 2022 Share Posted 17 May , 2022 Hello pleased to have any use of this thread made! Not sure if you have already seen this old topic on the event you are studying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Wilson Posted 17 May , 2022 Share Posted 17 May , 2022 (edited) During the past three years much work has been done to improve the history pages of the Warwickshire Yeomanry Museum website, which includes an account of the sinking of the Leasowe Castle. Unfortunately we do not hold a complete embarkation roll for the Leasowe Castle. or for the other ships in the convoy which left Alexandria on 26th May 1918. In recent months I have have been corresponding with JC Cambridge direct on the matter of the sinking of the Leasowe Castle. We have both drawn a blank in terms of embarkation lists or the make up of the other contingents on the vessels in this convoy which might include other Machine Gun Units. Philip Wilson http://www.warwickshire-yeomanry-museum.co.uk Edited 17 May , 2022 by Philip Wilson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewSid Posted 17 May , 2022 Share Posted 17 May , 2022 Coming at this cold but as per the long long trail the histories of 221 and 262 MG companies may be good start points. They had the same start and end point as the units already identified. Battalion or Company war diaries may help from the NA. “A” MG Battalion Formed in XIX Corps from MG Companies from Egypt, on 21 May 1918. Consisted of 221, 262, 271 and 272 MG Coys. Joined 30th Division, 29 June 1918, and redesignated No 31 Bn, MGC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCCambridge Posted 17 May , 2022 Share Posted 17 May , 2022 Hi Lincspoacher. Yes I am familiar with this and have delved deeply into this. Mostly bringing together various accounts and research of others. But also finding relevant information and sources including my grandfather’s handwritten account at the time. I am compiling this now but most research relates to individuals in convoys and military regimental archives. The MGC is quite difficult to research as a military unit. Their ild comrades association focuses on individuals rather than records of troop movements and there have been losses of military records over the years. I am trying to locate any relevant anecdotal documents covering MGC company convoy troop movements between Alexandria and the Western Front in 1918 including any training in Kantara or Zeitoun. This training is covered also in my grandfather’s letters so there was certainly substantial training prior to departure to France and many reports of units being formed there early in 1918. So all we need is evidence of other MGC companies established or expanded in 1918 in Egypt. That would be a start. Any examples will be most useful as a potential lead. Thanks John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCCambridge Posted 17 May , 2022 Share Posted 17 May , 2022 4 minutes ago, AndrewSid said: Coming at this cold but as per the long long trail the histories of 221 and 262 MG companies may be good start points. They had the same start and end point as the units already identified. Battalion or Company war diaries may help from the NA. “A” MG Battalion Formed in XIX Corps from MG Companies from Egypt, on 21 May 1918. Consisted of 221, 262, 271 and 272 MG Coys. Joined 30th Division, 29 June 1918, and redesignated No 31 Bn, MGC Thanks. Excellent. I have explored some of this but there is no detail provided from which regiments these companies were drafted. Any idea about this? Thanks. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewSid Posted 17 May , 2022 Share Posted 17 May , 2022 (edited) I have to correct the long long trail. As mentioned in other documents they became the 100th MG Bn not the 31st. 100th diary is available to download and I suspect you have read it Soon after arrival in France or before each numbered MG Coy became A to D Coy. You can probably ID which one became which with some detective work ie OC Coys. How specific are you trying to go here? We know they were formed from the S Notts and Warwickshire yeomanry? I’m unsure if their Egypt war diaries have been digitised or are at Kewbut they may give clues as to who went into each company. Alternatively an examination of the officers would likely lead you. andy To add - circa 200 men per company so numbers suggest entire battalion and all four companies were in the convoy at least. Edited 17 May , 2022 by AndrewSid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulianB Posted 17 May , 2022 Share Posted 17 May , 2022 (edited) I have identified 146 men for the 123rd Coy The service numbers are numbered of grouped 288XX, 289XX, 291XX (incl 2911 - --), 294XX, 303XX (nearly the highest, 394XX Name No join MGC join 123 Coy KIA Baxter, CQMS, WHJ 4008 Hood, Sgt JW, 4942 CQMS 28.1.18. Fenton Pte. Horace E. 9112 Pumford, L/Cpl JH, 14394 KIA 7.6.17 Cooper, L/Cpl S 14557 Avis, Sgt, WJ, 16930 Fisher, CSM EW 18187 Oates, Sgt T, 20732 forms garrison 12.3.17 Parker, Pte T, 20823 KIA 12.8.17 *Horridge, Sgt J 27427 Sears, Pte HG, 28873 KIA 7.6.17 Keane, Sgt Roland 28876 Donohoe, L/Cpl J, 28877 KIA 10.6.17 Arliss, Pte C, 28969 (Artiss in SDGW !) KIA 26.9.17 Robson, Pte W, 28971 KIA 20.2.17 Baker, Cpl Joseph 28972 forms garrison 12.3.1917 Judson, Cpl T, 28976 DoW 24.9.16 Hands, L/Cpl JH, 28981 KIA 31.7.17 Thompson, Sgt Harry 289114 forms garrison 1. 3.1917 Scottorn, CQMS, JV, 29115 left for UK as a candidate for commission, 20.1.17. Barnes, Pte C, 29117 KIA 31.5.17 Booth, Pte F, 29119 KIA 23.9.17 *Spencer, Pte WH, 29122 KIA 19.1.17. George, Cpl JT, 29401 sent on AA course 18.1.17; KIA 21.2.17. Chandler, Pte HA, 29402 KIA 29.9.16 *Staveley, Pte L, 29407 KIA 15.9.16 *Muggeridge, Pte W, 30331 KIA 24.7.16 *Pratt, Pte RE, 30334 KIA 17.1.17 Davis, Pte T, 30336 KIA 29.11.16 Wren, Pte EA, 30338 KIA 1.10.16 Fisher, Pte C, 30343 KIA 7.6.17 Curtis, Pte E. 30356 Bridgewater, Pte CT, 30359 In hosp home October 1916. Steer, Pte JT, 30363 KIA 17.9.16 Gifford, Pte WT, 30366 KIA 28.5.17 Kershaw, Pte J, 39499 KIA 16.9.17 Moore, Sjt J 42808 Adair, Pte T, 43291 KIA 20.2.17 Whife, Pte E, 45351 KIA 28.5.17 Love, Pte FC, 45486 KIA 4.3.18 Stokes, Pte R, 45760 KIA 8.10.16 Woulidge, Cpl LB 45870 17.1.17; KIA 13.10.18. Hall, L/Cpl RC 45975 KIA 26.9.17 Nash, L/Cpl HA, 46308 KIA 31.7.17 Burrill, Pte A, 46309 KIA 7.6.17 Raines, Pte AE, 53513 KIA 22.6.17 Ralston, Pte J, 53566 2.03.16 05.10.16 KIA 28.5.17 Dawes, Pte PC, 64306 KIA 27.6.17 Hardman, Pte A, 64494 KIA 30.6.17 Brady, Pte JA, 68197 28.2.17; KIA 31.7.17 Armstrong, Pte. John 70902 Lumsden, Pte RW, 71921 KIA 26.7.17 Saunders, L/Cpl AC 72100 Walker, Pte T, 72125 KIA 1.8.17 Challinger, Pte R, 72126 DoW 9.10.17 Barker, Pte L, 72130 KIA 20.2.17 Arculus, Cpl LJW, 73586 KIA 24/25.7.17 Helliwell, Pte JT, 82486 KIA 28.6.17 Payne, Pte HJ, 85422 KIA 5.8.17 Evans, Pte. A.W.J. 87829 Weir, Pte A, 87850 KIA 27.9.17 Neville, Pte HA, 89352 KIA 26.9.17 Drinkall, Pte A, 89652 KIA 31.7.17 Phelps, Pte JW, 90077 KIA 31.7.17 Hancock, Pte JA, 97755 KIA 29.6.17 Morris, Pte A, 97761 KIA 26.9.17 Slack, Pte J 97764 16.06,1917. Dudderidge, Pte HO, 99973 KIA 26.9.17 Sexton, Pte SJ, 103460 KIA 24.9.17 Keighley, Pte. John F. 104026 Waters, Pte WH, 104269 KIA 24.9.17 Eyles, Pte TF, 104352 KIA 26.9.17 Galloway, LCpl RA 104992 Barnett, Pte H 137034 28.2.17 Needless the officers of the 123rd are easily listed in the War Diary. Hubert Acason, 18xx-25.4.1920 Reginald Charles Agate, 1881.19xx A Boyd ? Charles Frederick Dingwall, 1893-1941 Wilfred Eddings, 1893-19. ? Fawcett, ? Michael John Vernon Hanson. 1897-1959 Charles Disraeli Harvey, 1885-1959. John Graham McNeil, (1880-1957) Andrew McKie Reid, 1893-1973 John Baxendine Reypert. 1892-19xx John Russell-Jones. 18xx-19xx Frederick Lloyd Shaw. 1892-19xx Gilbert Thomas, 1895-19xx Thomas Harry Locksley Turner, 1895-19xx Leslie Charles Turpin, 1898-197? Douglas Gordon Webster, 18xx-1918 Richard Williams, 1894-1918 Xxxx Wood (only noted in 1919 Edited 19 May , 2022 by JulianB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCCambridge Posted 17 May , 2022 Share Posted 17 May , 2022 Andrew. Thanks. Did you mean to say 10th Battalion? That would correlate with my notes. I’m still grappling with military hierarchy in terms of groupings of soldiers. There is record of 30000 members of 10th Battalion being transferred back from Egypt to France early in 1918. Comment noted this may become the single largest convoy transport voyage ever undertaken on that route. I will try to find the record of this but I believe it referred to a voyage by that convoy group just prior to that on 26th May. My interest is to try to define the total number of MGC newly drafted personnel trained in Egypt in and before May 1918 and redeployed by convoy back the the European theatre. My understanding is that all MGC drafts were selected from seasoned battle hardened troops with skills appropriate for small teams needed for MG operations. Cavalry and infantry being targeted as gunners and officers. I could be wrong but this is how I read it. This would provide full background to the results achieved later in 1918 on the Western Front. Thanks all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincspoacher Posted 17 May , 2022 Share Posted 17 May , 2022 Sorry to butt in but just added 9428 - 9443 men from the Royal Irish Rifles and Royal Dublin Fusiliers may have been former Mgc sections of these units? Thank you JulianB for that 123rd coy data I'll see about adding it to the list! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCCambridge Posted 17 May , 2022 Share Posted 17 May , 2022 3 minutes ago, JCCambridge said: Andrew. Thanks. Did you mean to say 10th Battalion? That would correlate with my notes. I’m still grappling with military hierarchy in terms of groupings of soldiers. There is record of 30000 members of 10th Battalion being transferred back from Egypt to France early in 1918. Comment noted this may become the single largest convoy transport voyage ever undertaken on that route. I will try to find the record of this but I believe it referred to a voyage by that convoy group just prior to that on 26th May. My interest is to try to define the total number of MGC newly drafted personnel trained in Egypt in and before May 1918 and redeployed by convoy back the the European theatre. My understanding is that all MGC drafts were selected from seasoned battle hardened troops with skills appropriate for small teams needed for MG operations. Cavalry and infantry being targeted as gunners and officers. I could be wrong but this is how I read it. This would provide full background to the results achieved later in 1918 on the Western Front. Thanks all. I meant 10th Division. Not Battalion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCCambridge Posted 17 May , 2022 Share Posted 17 May , 2022 https://transcripts.sl.nsw.gov.au/page/item-01-j-e-morrison-diary-13-october-1917-29-october-1918-page-49 see April 5th 1918 page 49 JEMorrison diary. Worth a read. Written by crew member of HMT Indarra. I will find reference to 10th Division asap. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincspoacher Posted 17 May , 2022 Share Posted 17 May , 2022 (edited) Not sure if this meets the criteria but I saw that the 74th (Yeomanry), 52nd (lowland), 42nd (East Lancs), 11th (Northern), 10th (Irish) and 29th division may have had Mg companies formed in Egypt and the division later moved to Europe by the spring 1918? 74th (Yeomanry) Division - The Long, Long Trail (longlongtrail.co.uk) 52nd (Lowland) Division - The Long, Long Trail (longlongtrail.co.uk) 42nd (East Lancashire) Division - The Long, Long Trail (longlongtrail.co.uk) 11th (Northern) Division - The Long, Long Trail (longlongtrail.co.uk) 10th (Irish) Division - The Long, Long Trail (longlongtrail.co.uk) 29th Division - The Long, Long Trail (longlongtrail.co.uk) Edited 17 May , 2022 by Lincspoacher error Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCCambridge Posted 17 May , 2022 Share Posted 17 May , 2022 This is excellent information and needs piecing together. If I was sufficiently competent and informed about the MGC structure in the scheme of things I would attempt this myself. Sadly I am not familiar with how MGC was arranged. Companies, divisions and battalions etc do not seem to relate to MGC but that is just my lack of knowledge. Could someone possibly offer an informed summary of how MGC companies would have been drafted from the Yeomanry and other regiments? I wish I knew more about this but have to rely on others to help me understand the numbers involved and how they fitted into the MGC as a whole. serious thanks for your input. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincspoacher Posted 17 May , 2022 Share Posted 17 May , 2022 Hello it depends on when it happened but I have seen some Territorial Force or regular army units that were sent to the middle east or were drawn from empire based garrisons and they just transferred the existing infantry machine gun sections straight over to a newly established Mgc company. So blocks of 20 - 30 men at once who were already experienced along with the Nco's with the odd one staying behind with their original unit to help train up new men on the extra Lewis guns that replaced the Maxims or Vickers. Once created the new Mgc unit was numbered then to usually remain in the infantry Brigade that their parent companies were in but as an independent force able to support them as needed. There were usually 3 brigades of infantry companies with support units that together formed a division that had a further pool of support units including a 4th Mgc company as a tactical reserve. Each Mgc company was divided from the 6 man section with one gun, to the platoon of 4 sections being 24 men with 4 guns, to the company of 4 platoons being 96 men with 16 guns though there were other men in addition such as those for logistics or commanders. A further detail was that the company had 3 platoons on rotational assignment and the 4th was a defensive reserve based with the headquarters staff behind the lines or for reinforcements as needed. In the spring of 1918 it was decided to have a general reorganisation of the Mgc to condense the 4 companies into a single Battalion with the designation number of the parent division. hope this helps, not sure what you already knew but hope there aren't too many errors! I could look at the Egypt formed Mg companies in my quest to help make a solider list? Lincspoacher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCCambridge Posted 18 May , 2022 Share Posted 18 May , 2022 Very very helpful. Is there a way we can talk or email as I am in touch with a small number of key individuals on my research and you have exactly the type of input I so urgently need at the moment. Thanks. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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