Rife Brigade & MGC POW

[james drury]

Hi all

Just wondering if any of the experts out there could help with a query. 

Have a relative  Edward Arthur Brewster (no service record I can find)

 Medal index cards shows No6616 7th Battalion Rifle Brigade and No141617 MGC.

 He was wounded in August 1917 whilst with the 7th RB, Named in their War Diary.

 Then has POW records showing him taken POW on the 1st March 1918 at Villers

The POW records show him as B  Company 7th RB but the published weekly casualty lists show him as POW in the MGC section and returned POW  also in the MGC section.

I think  the 7^th RB was in the 41^st Infantry Brigade?  so assumed he  may have at some point transferred to 41 Company MGC, 14th Division which I understand became 14 Battalion MGC in  March 1918 ?.

 I was trying to look into the circumstances of his capture so wondered if he was with 7RB or the MGC ?

 Any tips much appreciated - learning as always - thank you :-)

©FMP & NA

[charlie962]

A couple of additional pointers:

He was previously wounded with Rifle Brigade and appeared as such in DailyCasList of 3/10/17.

His MGC number is an early 1918 issue I believe. 

Charlie 

"Machine Gun Corps- Service Numbers- issue dates ? - Page 4 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum" https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/263707-machine-gun-corps-service-numbers-issue-dates/

Edited 16 July , 2022 by charlie962

[james drury]

`Thank you :-)

I was assuming the entry on the 3.10.17 was for a wound sustained on the 25.8.17 noted in the 7RB diary. I half wondered if he was sent somewhere for treatment and to recover and then on returning duty  joined the MGC

©Ancestry

[charlie962]

23 minutes ago, james drury said:

14 Battalion MGC

There is a redX enquiry form showing him as missing,  MGC and followed by the number 14 so I think you are right in your deduction. 

Findmypast here 

"Record Transcription: British Red Cross & Order Of St John Enquiry List, Wounded & Missing, 1914-1919 | findmypast.co.uk" https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBM%2FNMPWW1ENQUIRY%2F082181

[charlie962]

2 minutes ago, james drury said:

`Thank you :-)

I was assuming the entry on the 3.10.17 was for a wound sustained on the 25.8.17

That would fit. Not knowing gravity, can't say if triggered a move! More likely a skill that caused move?

[james drury]

22 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

There is a redX enquiry form showing him as missing,  MGC and followed by the number 14 so I think you are right in your deduction. 

Findmypast here 

"Record Transcription: British Red Cross & Order Of St John Enquiry List, Wounded & Missing, 1914-1919 | findmypast.co.uk" https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBM%2FNMPWW1ENQUIRY%2F082181

great ! thank you :-)

[charlie962]

Near numbers might suggest a Compulsory Transfer to MGC on 19/3/18, for the benefit of the service.

So he only had a couple of days as MGC before his capture! No wonder some records have him still as RB.

Charlie

[charlie962]

Here are a couple of bracketing near numbers for MGC that show the wording of transfer. One is ex RB Trf 18/3/18 renumbered 141559, one is ex RSussex trf 19/3/18 renumbered 141633.

"British Army Service Records 1914-1920 Image | findmypast.co.uk" https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f007388356%2f00572&parentid=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f7388356%2f20%2f562

"British Army Service Records 1914-1920 Image | findmypast.co.uk" https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f007301076%2f00899&parentid=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f7301076%2f60%2f896

 

Edited 16 July , 2022 by charlie962

[charlie962]

I note a couple of KRRC men with MGC no's issued 18/3/18 had been 'attached' a month earlier to a different MGC Company, so more work needs to be done to make sense of this? 

Eg here 

"British Army Service Records 1914-1920 Image | findmypast.co.uk" https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f007273896%2f00067&parentid=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f7273896%2f7%2f62

[james drury]

interesting - I'm going through the various diaries for the RB and KRRC in the 14th Division to see if any mention, also the MGC  an HQ diaries . Frustratingly most of the MGC end in Feb 1918, just when you don't want them too... will have a good hunt around but thanks for all the tips - much appreciated !

[charlie962]

Looking at that KRRC example, the Company referred to in Feb 1918 was merged into 20th Bn MGC in March 1918. 

This suggests Brewster could have been 'attached' to 41 MG Company before it was moved into 14 MG Battalion March 1918 at which point his formal transfer took place.

Charlie

 

Edited 16 July , 2022 by charlie962

[charlie962]

The vickersmg blog provides useful background. I suspect you have seen it already. 

"41st Brigade Machine Gun Company - The Vickers Machine Gun" https://vickersmg.blog/in-use/british-service/the-british-army/machine-gun-corps/machine-gun-corps-infantry/41st-brigade-machine-gun-company/

[AndrewSid]

I think in the main that when the MG battalions were formed in France it had little to no effect on each of the four companies.  They were all renumbered, usually A to D and were then referred to as say B Coy XX MGC Battalion.  What did happen was a new HQ element was created above each Coy.  Each Company  war diary would have stopped and would have become the job of the HQ element to produce a Battalion one.  No doubt the Adjutant at each company didn’t mind.  As such you get  a kind of transfer of war diaries from circa end of Feb from 4 company ones to a single battalion one.

 

andy

[james drury]

Thank you for the explanation  - I found ref to the renaming in the 14 Div  Diary which helps nicely . 

As you say,  all 4 diaries end in February 1918, sadly looks like the 14 Battalion MGC diary starts in June 1918 but I will keep hunting :-)

Thanks again - much appreciated :-)

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, james drury said:

sadly looks like the 14 Battalion MGC diary starts in June 1918 but I will keep hunting :-)

probably a fruitless search.  You say you are going through the HQ diaries therefore you will have seen:-

The 41st Brigade war diary was lost in the retreat as noted in the diary.  There is a harrowing account of the German attack from a surviving officer but that is all.  The Division was withdrawn to England and reconstituted before returning to France, hence the 14th Battalion diary begins in June 1918.  I doubt completion or retention of the war diary was a priority in the circumstances.

42nd Brigade gives a deployment but is marked "February 1918 ?"

The best account of the action of elements of the 14th Division on the 21st is in the 43rd Brigade Diary WO95/1905/1-4

There is little doubt the 14th Bn MGC  diary from its formation to the repatriation suffered a similar fate.

As noted above men were often attached to MGC Battalions before being posted.

The guns needed considerable resources to be transported and  operate effectively, carrying ammunition and looking after the transport did not need particular skills.  I would agree with the observations above as to date of transfer into the Corps.  He probably had no opportunity to change his identity disc or badges, he may not have even known his new number and would have found it easier to simply revert to the number he knew. 

One possible scenario is that he was wounded slightly and went through the recovery process. hospital/convalescent depot/base and attachment in France.

8 hours ago, james drury said:

Then has POW records showing him taken POW on the 1st March 1918 at Villers

Typo '21st March'

 

 

[JulianB]

123 MGC Coy officers (Guyatt [Behagnies] and Reid [Biefvilliers]) both taken PoW on 25-3-18..  Guyatt's statement noted that he had 14 men - including Sgt Moore DCM)

 

Edited 17 July , 2022 by JulianB

[charlie962]

8 hours ago, ALAN MCMAHON said:

A small problem  arises with the War Diary of 14  MG Battalion from   1st June 1918 onwards.  Here is the opening entry in the diary:

 

       Rather hard to be captured with a unit not formed for another 3 months???

 

Not so, I think.

The 14th Battalion MGC was first formed March 1918 from 41,42 and 43 Coys plus 224 Coy but disbanded April 1918 following all those losses. 

"The Battalion was disbanded on 11 April 1918 and all personnel were sent to Abbeville for drafting"

It was then re-formed Grantham June 1918. 

14th Company MGC is a red herring.

Edited 17 July , 2022 by charlie962

[charlie962]

JulianB's thinking on looking for PoW statements, particularly officers, may well yield interesting insights. Who were the 41 MGC Company officers at close of play Feb 1918 war diaries?  

Here are some 14th BN MGC officers taken 21/3/18:

"Search Results for Military, armed forces & conflict | findmypast.co.uk" https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?sourcecategory=armed+forces+%26+conflict&sid=101&keywords="14th+battalion"+machine&keywordsplace_proximity=5&datasetname=prisoners+of+war+1715-1945&sourcecountry=great+britain 

Richard Eric Davenhill was Worcester's, attd 224 Coy. 

William Ford Porteous was Middx attd 41 Coy. 

John Rolph was B coy is 42 Coy? 

Thomas Chalmers Skinner, Gordon Highlanders attd MGC was 224Coy. 

George Robbins was 41 Coy.

Edited 17 July , 2022 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Here is a starter list of ORs of 41 Coy taken 21/3/18. 

Worth checking them out for newspaper reports etc? 

"Search Results for Military, armed forces & conflict | findmypast.co.uk" https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?sourcecategory=armed+forces+%26+conflict&sid=998&keywords="41"++"21+mar+1918"&keywordsplace_proximity=5&datasetname=prisoners+of+war+1715-1945&sourcecountry=great+britain

[JulianB]

Yes, officer's statements is useful but those two are the only in that Coy [123 Bde and 41 Div] confiusing But the war went on.....

At the same time the Kaiserschlact hit the MGC regroup - 123 Coy, 41 Bde now.  but - again the war went on...

Wish that we had more letters - it is difficulty to track their descendents to see if they have 1918 letters. Col Lindsay...

Yes, I'm trying to write the history etc of 123rd Coy MGC - and subsequently 41 Bde

 

sorry, had to go - back later

 

 

Edited 17 July , 2022 by JulianB

[charlie962]

"Between 21st March and 5th April the 14th Division has 5,781 casualties, and by the 6th April the last unit of the Division had been withdrawn from the Line (Except the Artillery). The Division was then moved back between Lillers and Aire and was employed on the construction of the Army Line." 

Thoughts:

More men were taken prisoner than fought to the last man? Particularly when German infiltration will have surrounded the gunners before they knew it?

Could some deaths be under the man's original infantry Bn rather than MGC, given the newness of the change of unit? 

 Edit:

I think Soldiers Effects has a larger no of all MGC deaths 21/3/18  (over 200) compared to CWGC. This may be in part due to treatment of date ranges and part the use of MGC by Soldiers Effects but original Inf Bn by cwgc ? 

Edit edit- 

Soldier's effects do mostly show the Bn but Ancestry doesn't appear to have transcribed this. 

Eg Peffer was 14th Bn in effects but doesn't show other than MGC in the transcript. 

First 4 pages here are MGC deaths 21/3/18 per effects: 

"Machine Gun - UK, Army Registers of Soldiers' Effects, 1901-1929 - Ancestry.co.uk" https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/60506/?death=1918-3-21&count=50&death_x=0&keyword=Machine+gun&keyword_x=1

 

Edited 17 July , 2022 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Following up my note re effects,

Peffer shows in effects as 14th Bn MGC but on cwgc as 14th Company!! 

Makes a cwgc search difficult....

Here is Peffer in cwgc 

"Find War Dead | Search Results | CWGC" https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/search-results/?Surname=Peffer&SurnameExact=true&Forename=James&Initials=&ServiceNum=&Regiment=&WarSelect=1&CountryCommemoratedIn=null&Cemetery=&Unit=&Rank=&SecondaryRegiment=&AgeOfDeath=0&DateDeathFromDay=1&DateDeathFromMonth=January&DateDeathFromYear=&DateDeathToDay=1&DateDeathToMonth=January&DateDeathToYear=&DateOfDeath=&Honours=null&AdditionalInfo= 

Edit.. using that 14th Coy as a search term with date of death 21/3/18 I now get 14 hits on cwgc !!

 

Edited 17 July , 2022 by charlie962

[james drury]

Wow -  thanks for  the input all - very much appreciated.  

So summary  if I  have read correctly. 

Was with 7RB (41 Infantry Brigade) and wounded in August 1917 

Returned to & 7RB  at some point and was possibly attached to 41 Coy MGC in early 1918,  may have been transferred officially to the newly structured  14 Bttn MGC around  18/19 March 1918, possibly with A Coy (ex 41 Coy) 

Captured on 21st March just a few days after official transfer hence notation on POW reports of 7RB

POW listed 21.3.18 

noted 41 MGC  x23

noted  42 MGC x1

noted  43 MGC x18

noted  224 MGC x12  

noted 14 MGC x36 ( some of these have company noted as 41 or 42 etc or 14 Div) 

with 90 men all noted in MGC units on their POW records I think that reenforces the thought he was officially transferred  very close to his capture hence is notation of 7RB. 

The you all :-) 

 

 

 

Edited 17 July , 2022 by james drury

[charlie962]

6 minutes ago, james drury said:

noted  23 MGC x18

43 not 23 ?

7 minutes ago, james drury said:

notation on POW reports of 7RB

What are these?

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, ALAN MCMAHON said:

 Out of curiosity, just what happened to 14 Division and 14  MG Battalion.   There seems to be a lack of fatalities listed on CWGC.  To knock out an entire MG Battalion-which would  normally be posted as 4 companies at different points?  LLT says over 6000 men lost.

On March 21st the 14th (Light) Division suffered the biggest collapse of any Division. The Division had been moved from Ypres in January and had taken over a section of the line previously occupied by the French.  There was a defensive plan in place, but this was only promulgated in February and the defences in depth. had not been constructed.As Martin Middlebrook records (The Kaiser's Battle) as late as a week before the battle the Division was in dispute with the 36th (Ulster) Division on their left who had organised a plan for defence in depth and were concerned the 14th were not only deployed in the the front line but strung out over too wide a frontage.

The strategic Divisional defensive plan for the Western Front had evolved throughout the war into 'elasticity' and in 1918 consisted of a lightly held forward  zone, or 'Blue Line' held by a series of redoubts and machine gunners.  In the vent of an attack these would contain or hold the advancing enemy whilst other troops withdrew some 2000  yards to a second line , the 'Battle Zone' or 'Red Line', this line was to be held at all costs and is where the enemy would be checked and defeated. Behind them was theoretical Brown Line or Corps Line, theoretical because it was merely scratched in the ground.  Reserve Battalions were held in this part of the line ready to be deployed to the Battle Zone should there be a danger of a breakthrough.  Light artillery (18 pounder) were deployed between the Forward Zone and Battle Zone and the heavy artillery behind the Brown Line. 

All very fine and logical in theory, only the Forward Zone was fully manned and units positioned there rotated through very quickly.  The bulk of the Division was deployed to the Battle Zone and could be rested to be brought forward in the event of an attack.  

The situation with the 14th Division meant their Battalions were strung out in the Forward Zone when the German attack came. They were quickly overwhelmed and encircled by the attacking Germans, many surrendered, hence the high number of prisoners, and others were seen running to the rear.  They simply gave up the fight. It was a total collapse, later blamed by the the 36th Division, who also lost hundreds of men on March 21st for exposing their left flank.  The Commander of the 14th Division was sent home to England second day of the battle, the first British Commander to be summarily sacked in the Spring of 1918.

The War Diary for the 41st Brigade for the whole of February is just a few lines "Much work required on trenches - old trenches and CTs to be cleared - much work was required as the trenches were to be held in depth with FORWARD  and BATTLE ZONES  (their caps) 7 KRRC transferred to 43rd Infantry Brigade on the 2nd. Whole month passed without event except for small patrol encounters - enemy artillery very quiet"

This OP Order for 1/2 March illustrates the above cited 'Defensive Plan". The 41st Brigade Diary for March was lost in the retirement.