22nd Battery Machine Gun Corps (Motors)

[pjwmacro]

11 hours ago, abowell97 said:

Walter Patrick reading a copy of the Momagu

 

I do wish we could locate some copies of Momagu. This photo actually looks as if could be cut from a newspaper or magazine - or is that just an illusion? It certainly looks the sort of photo that they might have tried sending to the Motor Cycle - or published in Momagu?

[david murdoch]

6 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

I wouldn't go that far - but as I have said before, I am useless at seeing even family resemblances. That said - I agree the two photos you posted are probably the same man, and, based on the JPJ photo annotated as Gnr Parker - probably it's the same.

I'd also say this is the same man. I'm going to do a hard search for him. I do think from the photos he has the look of being one of the original battery members. So looking for a man who had an original service number probably under 2500. I looked at one other Gunner Parker in MGC(M) who was entitled to only BWM but his only service number is way out. Another Gunner Horace Edward Parker 1900 went to France 30/9/1915 so not likely him. There are several possibilities - he could have transferred to another unit or Tank Corps later on or he may even  have commissioned. If he went to Tanks he should have a 321*** number. In any event should be a MIC somewhere with a BWM to a low MMGS number. I may find him by elimination in due course as I continue to populate my 0 - 3000 MMGS spreadsheet.

Edited 6 April , 2020 by david murdoch

[pjwmacro]

18 hours ago, david murdoch said:

I'd also say this is the same man. I'm going to do a hard search for him

 

Thanks for that David. I have looking again at the IGSM 1919 roll for the MGC, (more on that separately, soon) and notied a couple of other Parkers. However, neither seemed to fit the bill in terms of low numbers.

[david murdoch]

6 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

Thanks for that David. I have looking again at the IGSM 1919 roll for the MGC, (more on that separately, soon) and notied a couple of other Parkers. However, neither seemed to fit the bill in terms of low numbers.

I have one Arthur Parker 163406  (later 7817560 Tank Corps) gained IGSM with 1st A.M.B Brigade HQ. His number and previous infantry number 8263 Royal Sussex Regiment  puts him in the same transfer period as several late replacements to 22nd MMG but I don't think he is our man. There are several low number MMGS men with 1st A.M.B Brigade HQ and other A.M.B.s - wondering how they got there  - some of them may have be previous transfers out of 22nd I need to look at them individually. Our man may have gone the same way as Dowie and been commissioned  - it's quite common for MMGS gunners to go directly to commission.

[pjwmacro]

On 07/04/2020 at 17:02, david murdoch said:

's quite common for MMGS gunners to go directly to commission

One of my lock down projects is investigating my grandfathers letters home to his fiancé. I only got these in June last year, just as Action was being released - so this is my first chance to start digging into them. Having made a start it's a mamouth task - just a carboard box of literally hundreds of letters with no sort of order. Fortunately the majority I have looked at thus far are dated - so the first task is just to try and sort them into date order. Having said that, there are already a couple of gems:

• a letter on MMG headed paper - see attached
•  confirmation they spent time at Eastbourne in 1915/16. 2 letters noted as being from Eastbourne
•  Rumours while at Bisley that they were to be sent to Siberia
•  Confirmation that grandfather spent time at an OCU in India in 1918 - at Lower Tapa - before going to Egypt for his pilot training.
•  A letter from Deolali, dated 5 Oct 1919 stating he was expecting to ship home in the next two weeks
•  The following from a letter from Bisley, no date, just headed "Monday" but presumably from 1915 ... "We have got a new captain in place of our old one & the new one seems to be a decent fellow anyway. He knows a good deal having been in the army for over 12 years & has seen service in India & has only just returned from Gallipoli so he make something of the battery in fact it is rumoured that we may be getting our motor cycles on Wednesday but of this I don't feel confident."

[abowell97]

2 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 Having made a start it's a mamouth task - just a carboard box of literally hundreds of letters with no sort of order. Fortunately the majority I have looked at thus far are dated - so the first task is just to try and sort them into date order.

 

Excellent stuff Paul - Now we've amassed a colossal amount of digitised pictures, more first hand accounts would be fantastic. Sounds like a real treasure trove of info, best of luck tackling it!

 

A few more pics:

"At the Races"

Can't make out any familiar faces in this one.

 

A rather strange-looking exercise at the Kasauli camp.

 

"Gurkhas at the station"

Edited 12 April , 2020 by abowell97

[pjwmacro]

12 hours ago, abowell97 said:

Can't make out any familiar faces in this one.

Good picture though. I will look for a mention in Grandfather's letters - but that's the sort of thing he would probably have avoided. He definitely mentions going fishing - photos in his album as well, and I think @JPJamieJames posted fishing pics at one point.

 

12 hours ago, abowell97 said:

A rather strange-looking exercise at the Kasauli camp.

Defeats me. I`ll keep my eyes open for the name Kasauli Camp.

[abowell97]

Kasauli Barracks, sorry. 

From another angle. The main barracks are the large building directly opposite.

The old Army Square parade grounds are still there today, looking at Google Earth, along with a lot of the colonial-era buildings. Kasauli is only a tiny place - so back then the large army complex must've taken up a fair portion of the town.

[MaureenE]

Kasauli, established as a cantonment in 1842,  was generally used by troops  in the summer as a place to escape the heat.

 

There was brewery there, established there due to the  good supply of  spring water, so no doubt Kasauli would have been a popular posting for soldiers. Although the brewery was later relocated to Solon, the date this occurred is not clear- an article indicates this was after WW1, but another source indicates it was much earlier, before 1880.

 

FIBIS Fibiwiki page Kasauli has links to photos etc

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Kasauli

 

Cheers

Maureen

[pjwmacro]

20 hours ago, Maureene said:

Kasauli, established as a cantonment in 1842,  was generally used by troops  in the summer as a place to escape the heat.

Thanks as always Maureen

[pjwmacro]

On 12/04/2020 at 15:55, abowell97 said:

The old Army Square parade grounds are still there today, looking at Google Earth, along with a lot of the colonial-era buildings. Kasauli is only a tiny place - so back then the large army complex must've taken up a fair portion of the town.

 

It was the "strange looking exercise" that was throwing me rather than the location of Kasauli. As I said, I`ll look out for it in grandfather's letters - he definitely mentions Kuldana, but not seen Kasauli yet. Although he does mention that senior officers seemed to make a nuisance of themselves with frequent inspections. (Some things don't change!)

[david murdoch]

" Gunner John Travell Maton Gough 1068. He's on the BWM only roll in among the 22nd Battery names. He never got a GSM/clasp, but 22nd for sure  - check out his 22MMGS shoulder title! 

Baptised 15 Sep 1895 - Dinton, Wiltshire, England - died 28 Aug 1921 aged 26 at British Station Hospital, Murree, India! No CWWG listing for him, but he had discharged from army 72/03/1920. With a name like that easy to find on the archives - he was at Birmingham University 1912-1913. He had a sister Irene Alberta Ingeretha Maton Gough."

 

Picked up actual cause of death for him from his burial record. Given as an knee injury that went septic - so probably blood poisoning. He was also noted as working at the brewery in Murree.

 

[pjwmacro]

On 14/04/2020 at 00:24, david murdoch said:

Picked up actual cause of death for him from his burial record. Given as an knee injury that went septic - so probably blood poisoning. He was also noted as working at the brewery in Murree.

 

Thanks David

Note - new threads started for 3 and 14th Batteries in India. Threads on 15 and 19 to follow idc.

 

[pjwmacro]

A recurring theme of grandfather's letters is spending down time going fishing. And there are photos in both his album and @JPJamie ' s that include fishing parties.  However, I was particularly intrigued by the following passage, in a letter from Parachinar dated 27/6/19, so after the actions up on the Piewar Kotal but before Badama Post:

 

"Yesterday & Tuesday I managed to get fishing passes & went to some mountain streams about 8 miles from here & had quite a good catch of Indian Salmon a species of trout which make quite a decent change to goat stew, on which we subsist chiefly now that Bully beef issue has been stopped."

 

It's written on the blank back of a signal message pad, Army Form C2124, Modified for India!

 

 

 

[Dragoon]

On 12/04/2020 at 01:04, abowell97 said:

 

 

Hello, this is a fantastic thread, I've been following it pretty much from the start.

Something caught my eye on this photo.

The MMG chaps sitting appear to have curved metal shoulder titles of some sort, does anyone have any ideas to what they are?

I don't know if I can have this moved to the uniform and badges forum, or do I have to have permission from the OP.

Thank you in advance

 

Chris

 

[pjwmacro]

46 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

The MMG chaps sitting appear to have curved metal shoulder titles of some sort, does anyone have any ideas to what they are?

 

Chris

See post #262 on p11 of this thread. We think they are locally made, metal  "22 MMGS" titles. I assume that's what you are referring to rather than the red cloth, Motor Machine Gun Service flashes which are worn on the upper sleeve. (There are photos again elsewhere in this thread).

 

Regards, Paul

Edited 17 April , 2020 by pjwmacro

[pjwmacro]

51 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

I don't know if I can have this moved to the uniform and badges forum, or do I have to have permission from the OP.

 

Chris - if you mean moving the entire thread to the uniforms and badges forum - then I would rather that didn't happen. If you mean reposting the photo "At the Races" into that forum, then I certainly have no objections, and I am sure the owner, Alex, @abowell97, would not either. If you do so, you might wish to point out that the original is from the collection of a member of 22nd Battery Motor Machine Guns, Cpl Walter Patrick, serving in India from 1916-1919, and a link to this thread would be appreciated!

 

Regards, Paul

[Dragoon]

1 hour ago, pjwmacro said:

 

Chris - if you mean moving the entire thread to the uniforms and badges forum - then I would rather that didn't happen. If you mean reposting the photo "At the Races" into that forum, then I certainly have no objections, and I am sure the owner, Alex, @abowell97, would not either. If you do so, you might wish to point out that the original is from the collection of a member of 22nd Battery Motor Machine Guns, Cpl Walter Patrick, serving in India from 1916-1919, and a link to this thread would be appreciated!

 

Regards, Paul

Hello, just the photo please, not the cloth titles, the metal ones on the epaulets .

Very interesting and fascinating thread

 

Chris

[Dragoon]

1 hour ago, pjwmacro said:

 

Chris - if you mean moving the entire thread to the uniforms and badges forum - then I would rather that didn't happen. If you mean reposting the photo "At the Races" into that forum, then I certainly have no objections, and I am sure the owner, Alex, @abowell97, would not either. If you do so, you might wish to point out that the original is from the collection of a member of 22nd Battery Motor Machine Guns, Cpl Walter Patrick, serving in India from 1916-1919, and a link to this thread would be appreciated!

 

Regards, Paul

Hi Paul,

Don't worry, I believe they are indeed the 22 MMG title on page 11, thank you for pointing that out.

Stay safe

 

Chris

[pjwmacro]

8 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

Don't worry, I believe they are indeed the 22 MMG title on page 11, thank you for pointing that out.

 

We aim to please! Glad you are continuing to enjoy the thread. Stay safe.

[david murdoch]

 

3 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

Hi Paul,

Don't worry, I believe they are indeed the 22 MMG title on page 11, thank you for pointing that out.

Stay safe

 

Chris

This is probably the clearest picture of them in use, though they do appear in other pictures. The 25 MMGS shoulder titles in the book most likely pertain to 25th Calcutta Battery that formed in India - the drawing one assumes copied from a brass title. I've yet to see unit shoulder titles for any other battery. Rare to see any shoulder titles at all - early on a few RFA titles and later the odd MGC(M). These individual unit titles would be something  that would have likely been kept (along with MMG cap badges) and they just don't appear.

[abowell97]

3 hours ago, Dragoon said:

or do I have to have permission from the OP.

Certainly, if you can get any information that's of use to you out of the picture then by all means post it in another thread. That particular copy is from Acting Cpl Walter Patrick's collection, though I'd be surprised if there were no duplicates of it in other people's albums...

-Alex

[Dragoon]

1 hour ago, david murdoch said:

 

This is probably the clearest picture of them in use, though they do appear in other pictures. The 25 MMGS shoulder titles in the book most likely pertain to 25th Calcutta Battery that formed in India - the drawing one assumes copied from a brass title. I've yet to see unit shoulder titles for any other battery. Rare to see any shoulder titles at all - early on a few RFA titles and later the odd MGC(M). These individual unit titles would be something  that would have likely been kept (along with MMG cap badges) and they just don't appear.

Super David, thank you for that,

Greatly appreciated

 

Chris 

[Dragoon]

26 minutes ago, abowell97 said:

Certainly, if you can get any information that's of use to you out of the picture then by all means post it in another thread. That particular copy is from Acting Cpl Walter Patrick's collection, though I'd be surprised if there were no duplicates of it in other people's albums...

-Alex

Thank you Alex, my question has been answered above.

Great thread!

 

Stay safe

Chris

[pjwmacro]

@david murdoch - thanks for posting these. Are these in your possession or just the photos? Do you know who they belonged to?  Regards, Paul