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Remembered Today:

22nd Battery Machine Gun Corps (Motors)


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david murdoch
8 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

More great sleuthing - thanks David. I`d agree the circled chap above is a possible match - and definitely looks late 30's. IIRC that photo is a Kuldanna Camp photo so 1916 - or potentially Tapa in 1917?  Sadly the photo in The Motor Cycle isn't really good enough, especially on the faces, to make comparisons.

Hopefully is the right man. Really would need to check his officer's record to see his background to prove he came back from 22nd MMG. At very least I now have background on 2220 for my MMGS folder. I'm sure I saw on a document he was 6th Tank Corps - perhaps with his age and technical background workshops rather than in a tank. Also I believe he was actually an electrical engineer rather than an electrician.

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1 hour ago, david murdoch said:

Hopefully is the right man. Really would need to check his officer's record to see his background to prove he came back from 22nd MMG.

Agree it's not absolutely conclusive - but I think it's pretty strong probability.  IIRC i have looked for his officer record in TNA without joy. Did he serve on post war?

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david murdoch
1 hour ago, pjwmacro said:

Agree it's not absolutely conclusive - but I think it's pretty strong probability.  IIRC i have looked for his officer record in TNA without joy. Did he serve on post war?

 Not really sure as not found much on him post war. He got married for sure in England in 1921 but after that until their death records not finding anything I can identify as 100% them, as on voters rolls ect are others of the same name. Not found them together on the 1939 roll matching birth dates. There is a possibility he returned to Ireland after he got married. His Medal card does not give a date applying for medals or and address. The public family trees on Ancestry for him are pretty spare on detail for him, but on his Geni profile is showing they had two children, but in private mode - will need to contact the profile owner, but information was added 10 years ago.

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  • 6 months later...
On 14/05/2020 at 03:02, david murdoch said:

Doing a bit more hunting to identify "Sgt Barton" who appeared in photo in The Motorcycle. Previously we have  Sgt. 2220 Alfred A.T. Barton as a best match. He appears on the MGC(M) roll as BWM only and in the same group as known 22nd Battery men - hinting his name was put forward for the roll. As we know this man is shown as being commissioned in Tank Corps and is also listed as 2nd Lt on Tank Corps BWM/VM roll.  I have found him in the Gazette listed as being commissioned 28/11/1917 and full name Alfred Augustus Tardif Barton. If this is the correct man, then it's likely he would have had to return to UK prior to this. Now with a full name to go on, finding more on him and he's no ordinary chap and can see strings could be pulled to bring him back from India. Parents Augustus Samuel Barton and Rachel Jane Tardif. His grandfather was Colonel William Robert Barton -  Colonel Commandant of the Royal Alderney Artillery Militia amongst other appointments.

 

 

Not sure if this is a viable alternative interpretation? DNW have Lot 365 of their forthcoming auction the medals of Lt E R Barton IASC. https://nw.co.uk/auctions/cwww.datalogue/lot.php?auction_id=567&lot_uid=382622

 


Three: Lieutenant E. R. Barton, Indian Army Service Corps
British War and Victory Medals (Lieut. E. R. Barton.); India General Service 1908-35, 2 clasps, Afghanistan N.W.F. 1919, Waziristan 1919-21 (Lieut. E. R. Barton. I.A.S.C.) clasps connected by thread, mounted as originally worn, generally nearly very fine or better (3) £100-£140
E. R. Barton resided at 43 Chelmsford Avenue, Southend-on-Sea, Essex
 
His medal roll shows as a LT - is it possible that he could have been ASC and then commissioned IASC? Or would his medal roll then be as an ASC  Sgt? Do we need his service papers to be sure one way or other? I think I prefer David's theory as previously given - but I am currious as to whether we can rule out this ER Barton as a possibility?
 
Regards, Paul

41629_625537_9946-00128.jpg

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29 minutes ago, pjwmacro said:

 

Not sure if this is a viable alternative interpretation? DNW have Lot 365 of their forthcoming auction the medals of Lt E R Barton IASC. https://nw.co.uk/auctions/cwww.datalogue/lot.php?auction_id=567&lot_uid=382622

 


Three: Lieutenant E. R. Barton, Indian Army Service Corps
British War and Victory Medals (Lieut. E. R. Barton.); India General Service 1908-35, 2 clasps, Afghanistan N.W.F. 1919, Waziristan 1919-21 (Lieut. E. R. Barton. I.A.S.C.) clasps connected by thread, mounted as originally worn, generally nearly very fine or better (3) £100-£140
E. R. Barton resided at 43 Chelmsford Avenue, Southend-on-Sea, Essex
 
His medal roll shows as a LT - is it possible that he could have been ASC and then commissioned IASC? Or would his medal roll then be as an ASC  Sgt? Do we need his service papers to be sure one way or other? I think I prefer David's theory as previously given - but I am currious as to whether we can rule out this ER Barton as a possibility?
 
Regards, Paul

 

I think E R Barton is Edwin Richard Barton  b.1892 d.1973  married Gwendoline Jones in April 1915. I think this may his MIC, though not showing any GSM. In the newspapers shown appointed Reserve of Officers, Indian Army November 1917.

30850_A000101-00147.jpg

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6 hours ago, david murdoch said:

think E R Barton is Edwin Richard Barton  b.1892 d.1973  married Gwendoline Jones in April 1915. I think this may his MIC, though not showing any GSM. In the newspapers shown appointed Reserve of Officers, Indian Army November 1917

I'd agree that is almost certainly ER Barton's MIC - so I think that rules him out from being Sgt Barton. So Alfred AT Barton, remains the almost certain candidate!

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  • 1 month later...

Not specifically regarding the 22nd Battery, but I found a collection of excellent images from Waziristan around 1919-1920 that the RAF Museum holds.

 

https://flic.kr/s/aHsjwywiMJ

 

@pjwmacroSome good ones of clearing the wreckage of an RAF aircraft that you may well have seen before! A good photo of a Bristol B.2 Fighter over the region near the end too.

A fair few are by an official war photographer Randolph Holmes, so they may well have been linked on this site before, hopefully they're of interest nonetheless. 

Edited by abowell97
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On 19/12/2020 at 19:25, abowell97 said:

Not specifically regarding the 22nd Battery, but I found a collection of excellent images from Waziristan around 1919-1920 that the RAF Museum holds.

 

https://flic.kr/s/aHsjwywiMJ

 

@pjwmacroSome good ones of clearing the wreckage of an RAF aircraft that you may well have seen before! A good photo of a Bristol B.2 Fighter over the region near the end too.

A fair few are by an official war photographer Randolph Holmes, so they may well have been linked on this site before, hopefully they're of interest nonetheless. 

Thanks for this Alex. Some great photos, the vast majority of which I haven't seen before. Give a really good feel for the landscape and how harsh it is. The one with all the names on it was particularly interesting - not that I recognised any of the names - don't suppose there is any more information about which unit or squadron it was?

 

Best wishes for Christmas and the New Year =may it be a better one than this one! Stay safe!

 

Paul

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On 20/12/2020 at 22:17, pjwmacro said:

Thanks for this Alex. Some great photos, the vast majority of which I haven't seen before. Give a really good feel for the landscape and how harsh it is. The one with all the names on it was particularly interesting - not that I recognised any of the names - don't suppose there is any more information about which unit or squadron it was?

 

Best wishes for Christmas and the New Year =may it be a better one than this one! Stay safe!

Thanks Paul, and to you too!

 

As for the photos, not much actual info about them, I had a poke around for the names (and even the aircraft tail registration) but not much came up. One even earned an OBE in later life and still information is sparse...

It is nice to see photos similar to ones we have but with much more fidelity, really to get a sense of the vast, barren landscape they spent so much time patrolling.

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  • 1 month later...
david murdoch

Turned this up from Find My Past . Gunner 1239 Alexander Carmichael was awarded the MM!  London Gazette 15/01/1920 He was awarded GSM with NWFF clasp, but MM is not noted on his medal index card or medal roll. Unlike some of the others with GSM his address is not noted on the MIC

He was discharged 23/12/1919  so would have left India a month or so before. Presumably the award was put in earlier related to action during the summer of 1919.

He would have enlisted on or just after 13th May 1915. As no address and quite a common name have not positively identified him but almost certainly Scottish and possibly from Edinburgh/Leith area, as several close numbers enlisted there (and not through The Motorcycle).

S2_GBM_WO372_23_14791.jpg

31794_221579-00631.jpg

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34 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

Turned this up from Find My Past . Gunner 1239 Alexander Carmichael was awarded the MM!  London Gazette 15/01/1920

Great find David. Thank you,

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david murdoch
32 minutes ago, pjwmacro said:

Great find David. Thank you,

The MM card does not seem to be in Ancestry - possibly as it gazetted in 1920. I'll do some hunting and see if I can pick him up in the newspapers either enlisting or for the MM. 

 

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david murdoch

Some further looking at the actual Gazette page (13/1/1920, Supplement 31734, page 683) reveals that Gunner Carmichael was from or at least enlisted in Dundee. Backtracking to 1915 There are notices in the Dundee Courier from 6/5/1915 & 11/5/1915 actively recruiting for MMGS in the city. His service number dates from right around this time. There are probably four possibilities on the 1911 Census who would be in the age range to enlist in 1915 and living close enough they would have enlisted in Dundee.  

The Gazette pages either side show awards from previous spring and summer in India and some from Mesopotamia.  So his award certainly to do with action  during 3rd Afghan.

In addition he was also MiD ( Gazette 30/7/1920, Supplement 32002, page 8060). He's listed alongside E W Macro. so probably involved at Badama Post.

 

Carmichael.jpg

dundee.jpg

MiD.jpg

Edited by david murdoch
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On 28/01/2021 at 20:59, david murdoch said:

He's listed alongside E W Macro. so probably involved at Badama Post.

 

Great find David - despite searching the LG many times, that's the first time I have seen the notification of my Grandfather's MiD. I have the War Office telegram (from Churchill) - but had never seen the Gazette. Thank you.

MiD-tel.jpg

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david murdoch
14 minutes ago, pjwmacro said:

 

Great find David - despite searching the LG many times, that's the first time I have seen the notification of my Grandfather's MiD. I have the War Office telegram (from Churchill) - but had never seen the Gazette. Thank you.

 

Paul. That explains why we never picked up on Gunner Carmichael previously (also as there is nothing noted on his MIC and roll). I'm working on him and pretty sure I've identified him - just need to clarify 100%! Hoping to hear from a relative on an Ancestry family tree.

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5 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

Paul. That explains why we never picked up on Gunner Carmichael previously (also as there is nothing noted on his MIC and roll). I'm working on him and pretty sure I've identified him - just need to clarify 100%! Hoping to hear from a relative on an Ancestry family tree.

 

Just checked my notes - I have nothing on him - less than you have just turned out. With regards what section he was I guess it might be an assumption he was not in 1 Section - as he doesn't appear to have been named in any of @JPJamie's James Petrie Jamieson's photos. I would have thought that fellow Scotts, if in the same section, there might have been at least one photo? Not conclusive though. I will check my grandfathers letters again for anything which might indicate an MM action - but nothing springs to mind. That said - he didn't write in much detail about the action bits. It's also clear that he spent some time acting as Moloey's driver during Punjab disturbances and Third Afghan War - only going back to 3 Section for Badama Post, because the normal section sergeant (unnamed) had gone sick.

 

Regards, P

 

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4 hours ago, david murdoch said:

 Hoping to hear from a relative on an Ancestry family tree

Fingers crossed!

 

On a different note m, I am waiting for a bit of ephemera from Gunner H Hargreaves to arrive here. A 1917 sports medal- popped up on ebay before Christmas and I managed to acquire it  Now waiting for it to arrive - we gave been having issues with BFPO deliveries since before Christmas  (combination of covid and Brexit). I will pist details once in my possession!

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  • 2 months later...
abowell97

Picture from another PT instructors class, only one or two faces I could recognise. I don't know whether these instructor classes took place with the battery or elsewhere - if the latter then possible that very few battery members were there.

PTClass2.jpg.95644db8ebf9bc165a5c02d089c88eea.jpg

The only faces I felt I'd recognised were the instructor (from other PT images - none from 22nd Bty pictures) and the man with slightly receding hair, directly in front of the instructor on his right-hand side (can't really make him out on the down-scaled image). I was adamant I'd seen him in some battery pictures before, but after scouring past posts I can't find a picture that shows it, so I could be wrong...

 

 

Kasauli.jpg.f189f1bb49852196052c0d06c921bcc1.jpgKasauli2.jpg.fafb7929b248ee1d146b6c4801faa532.jpg

Two pictures taken of what looks like the same game of hockey on the Kasauli army parade ground.

On the left picture it looks like a few tents erected amongst the buildings too - perhaps the Kasauli camp was at capacity.

 

 

Last one being of the 'Calcutta Botanic Gardens', only a few of the men being in uniform, and accompanied by some well dressed women, too.

Safe to assume they were on leave a lot of the time they were in North-Eastern India?

Now called the Acharya Jagadish Chandra Bose gardens.

BotGardnsCalcutta.jpg.e15d3f0bb356b93d14be453246208f18.jpg

 

Edited by abowell97
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  • 1 month later...
pjwmacro
On 14/04/2021 at 17:49, abowell97 said:

Picture from another PT instructors class, only one or two faces I could recognise. I don't know whether these instructor classes took place with the battery or elsewhere - if the latter then possible that very few battery members were there.

 

Alex thanks for sharing. From the album of a verified Bty member, so all interesting photos with a direct link - even if we cannot identify additional individuals. Maybe sometime in the future they will make the link for someone.

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pjwmacro
On 31/01/2021 at 19:51, pjwmacro said:

On a different note m, I am waiting for a bit of ephemera from Gunner H Hargreaves to arrive here. A 1917 sports medal- popped up on ebay before Christmas and I managed to acquire it  Now waiting for it to arrive - we gave been having issues with BFPO deliveries since before Christmas  (combination of covid and Brexit). I will post details once in my possession!

 

It turned up eventually! (Although I must admit I have had it for about 3 months) - despite lock downs life still seems busy!  Anyway - plainly won by Gunner H (Harry) Hargreaves of 22nd MMGS Bty.

 

Any suggestions as to what C.F.L stands for? Best I could come up with was Company Football League.

 

I don't think we have a photo of 1439 Gunner Hargreaves - but am just checking.

 

Regards, Paul

 

20210405_Hargreaves-CFL-Medal.jpg

20210405_Hargreaves-CFL-Medal-reverse.jpg

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abowell97
12 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

Any suggestions as to what C.F.L stands for? Best I could come up with was Company Football League.

 

I don't think we have a photo of 1439 Gunner Hargreaves - but am just checking.

Great find, looks like excellent condition too!

 

JPJamieson_Unknowns_562x802.png.233c45165c25858f022f8cad8e7b6862.png.54749efc54d40ac68394b6536955e23e.png

Gr. Hargreaves on the left.

 

I couldn't find much for CFL besides the Calcutta Football League, which might be a bit too professional, though by the looks of it British Army teams were fairly prevalent, so it might not be too far off. 

Edited by abowell97
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david murdoch
12 hours ago, abowell97 said:

Great find, looks like excellent condition too!

 

JPJamieson_Unknowns_562x802.png.233c45165c25858f022f8cad8e7b6862.png.54749efc54d40ac68394b6536955e23e.png

Gr. Hargreaves on the left.

 

I couldn't find much for CFL besides the Calcutta Football League, which might be a bit too professional, though by the looks of it British Army teams were fairly prevalent, so it might not be too far off. 

Yes I was looking at  Calcutta Football League. Calcutta Football League - Wikipedia

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pjwmacro
On 16/05/2021 at 11:45, abowell97 said:

Gr. Hargreaves on the left.

 

Well done - I`d forgotten that image was captioned in your album! (And that it featured Harry Hargreaves)

 

21 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Yes I was looking at  Calcutta Football League. Calcutta Football League - Wikipedia

 

And for both - I guess Calcutta Football League sounds more likely than Company - except I wouldn't have thought they'd have put a unit on something a medal for something like that in which it looks as if one had Army teams (as opposed to unit) playing? Bit of a mystery - but there's no provenance with the item, so for all I know it could be a lucky fake or Hargreaves could have had it knocked up himself either in India or on return to UK!

 

Regards, Paul

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