22nd Battery Machine Gun Corps (Motors)

[david murdoch]

23 minutes ago, pjwmacro said:

@david murdoch - thanks for posting these. Are these in your possession or just the photos? Do you know who they belonged to?  Regards, Paul

Just the photos! Geoffrey Churcher acquired them back in 2018 - posted on the Facebook page at the time. Checking back they had been with a collector from Scotland for a while before. No idea who the owner was , but they must have come back from India with one of the Scottish lads.

[pjwmacro]

1 minute ago, david murdoch said:

No idea who the owner was , but they must have come back from India with one of the Scottish lads.

Makes sense. Missed that they were in Geoffrey's collection.

[pjwmacro]

Trying to reconcile the numbers of 22 Battery shown on the 60 Inf Bde strength returns in Jun and July 1919 against the numbers of 22 Bty appearing on the IGSM 08 NWF 1919 medal roll.  The strength return shows 3 Officers and 57 ORs for Jun and 2 Officers and 48 ORs for Jul.  So far we have found 46 OR names on the medal roll, including 3 ASC. I assume the missing 11 are not all ASC or medics (although we have no confirmed identities of medics yet) - but some might well be. I suspect the others have been mis recorded, probably as 22 Squadron (MGC(C)) rather than 22 Bty (MMGS/MG(C)). I guess I`ll try another trawl through the medal roll! Other suggestions welcomed!

[pjwmacro]

From Grandfather's letters, R. Pindi, dated Feb 8th 1917:

 

We've been doing a lot of rifle shooting lately & I managed to scrape through the preliminary with 81 pts out of a possible 130. Only 5 out of the section have passed up to the present but the rest are getting another chance tomorrow. After this is finished we have got to go through the classification & I'm afraid I shan't get on very well.

 

Last Saturday we were out with the guns firing for the benefit of a dozen or so generals. I hear now that this show was to have been held a[sic] Delhi & that we were going down there by road but the infantry couldn't muster enough guns there so we have been done out of a trip to Delhi that would have relieved the beastly monotony of this place.

 

[pjwmacro]

From Grandfather's letters, Upper Topa, dated May 30th 1917:

 

I haven't been out of camp since we arrived up here as I'm doing Orderly Sgts work this week (see what a lot they are putting on us poor A L/Cpls) & that means that for 1 week I have to stop in camp. Of course I do no parades etc during this week so I sit still & watch the Bty making roads.      …….. the worst part of it is waiting from 9.30pm closing the canteen until 10.18pm lights out so there's not much chance of going to bed early if you want to. 

[pjwmacro]

@CanadianJane

 

22nd Battery swimming party.

[abowell97]

Fantastic photograph and letter extracts Paul!

 

On 13/04/2020 at 23:24, david murdoch said:

With a name like that easy to find on the archives - he was at Birmingham University 1912-1913.

 

Slightly off topic, but were there any accessible Birmingham University records that you used? I've tried to look for several people at Birmingham University around that period but I can't find much in the way of University or OTC records for the time.

 

I ask because I have two Birmingham University Officer Training Corps cap badges which were in the possession of Walter Patrick's son (stored with two Victory and British War Medal ribbons) but can't seem to find anyone that the two badges or ribbons might've belonged to...

[pjwmacro]

16 minutes ago, abowell97 said:

I ask because I have two Birmingham University Officer Training Corps cap badges which were in the possession of Walter Patrick's son (stored with two Victory and British War Medal ribbons) but can't seem to find anyone that the two badges or ribbons might've belonged to.

 

Wow!!  One set (or both?) of VM and BWM were presumably Leonard Patricks?  They cannot be Walters or Gough's - because neither qualified for the VM.

[pjwmacro]

Also amongst my grandfather's letters I have discovered a typed itinerary of the NWF familiarisation patrol - which may have formed the basis for Sgt Alfred Fielders letter to the Motor Cycle Magazine. Other than it being with my grandfathers letters I am unsure of it's provenance.  My grandfather didn't type so I am pretty sure he didn't produce it.

[david murdoch]

Interesting notes. This dates the "peace offering" photo 22/4/1916 - on the road between Kohat and Poannu  - one hundred and four years ago today! Reversed image of this photo later sketched by Gunner Tom Collins.
 

 

[pjwmacro]

1 hour ago, david murdoch said:

he "peace offering" photo 22/4/1916 - on the road between Kohat and Poannu

Interesting as well that it wasn't accepted - not mentioned in my grandfather's album, and I cannot recall if Sgt Fielder stated so in the letter?

And is Poannu the same place as Bannu?

[david murdoch]

1 hour ago, pjwmacro said:

Interesting as well that it wasn't accepted - not mentioned in my grandfather's album, and I cannot recall if Sgt Fielder stated so in the letter?

And is Poannu the same place as Bannu?

Trying to find Poannu. Stating it was 80 miles from Kohat, that's slightly less  than the distance to Bannu. It's certainly reads as a separate place from Bannu, but maybe changed it's name - I don't see somewhere with a similar spelling. It may have been a fort or military camp but not finding any reference to it.You can see on Google map the route from Bannu to Miranshah (Miran Shah) there is only one road and that journey is now  shown as being 55.7Km - slightly less than their stated 40 miles. This 1926 map blows up quite well and you can scroll the route from Kohat to Bannu. I'd presume they would use the NWF road (on new maps Bannu - Kohat road). http://www.khyber.org/images/maps/kohat1926.jpg

 

 

Edited 22 April , 2020 by david murdoch

[abowell97]

22 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

Wow!!  One set (or both?) of VM and BWM were presumably Leonard Patricks?  They cannot be Walters or Gough's - because neither qualified for the VM.

 

True, I'd assume it was Leonard's, but the two Birmingham Uni OTC cap badges i'm not so sure of. Can't find any university records for the time, and no evidence that either Patrick went to university. They might just be some unrelated cap badges that ended up in the family from somebody else...

 

That patrol itinerary is a fascinating piece of history, brilliant to see.

[pjwmacro]

1 hour ago, abowell97 said:

two Birmingham Uni OTC cap badges i'm not so sure of.

I`d agree JTM Gough would be the prime candidate for the Birmingham UOTC badges - assuming they are period. I am no expert on the history of UOTC's or Birmingham in particular. Once I get back into the office I can try and do some digging and see if the current OTC holds any historical records. (Unlikely - but possible)

[pjwmacro]

12 hours ago, david murdoch said:

It may have been a fort or military camp but not finding any reference to it.

That makes sense. Fielder's letter in the Motor Cycle definitely just says on 22 moved from Kohat to Bannu. And in the document above there is nothing about moving from Poannu to Bannu - it just says 23rd at Bannu, leaving on 24th - which appears to be matched with the article., Regards Paul

[pjwmacro]

On 22/04/2020 at 22:10, david murdoch said:

Reversed image of this photo later sketched by Gunner Tom Collins.

Love the sketch. 

 

On 23/04/2020 at 00:49, david murdoch said:

Trying to find Poannu. Stating it was 80 miles from Kohat, that's slightly less  than the distance to Bannu. It's certainly reads as a separate place from Bannu, but maybe changed it's name

 

I wonder if @Maureene can help? She is good with place names.

[pjwmacro]

More from grandfather's letters - this time about Tich - the Battery Monkey!

 

                                                                                  R. Pindi

                                                                                  June 15th 1916

 

I've got another month of this heat & then I expect to go up into the hill & the cool weather for 6 week & that's what I'm looking forward to.

If the writing pretty awful you must excuse it as the monkey is sitting on my shoulder & every now & then enjoying himself by climbing over my head or jumping up on a shelf & then down on to my shoulder again to add to that its getting dark.

 

                                                                                  R. Pindi

                                                                                  July 6th 1916

 

Our battery pet, the monkey (called Tich) is still under my care & he's such a mischevious little beggar that he takes a lot of looking after. The other day he went into the Order Room & chewed up all the CO's pens & then there was trouble in which I took part of the blame but the brunt fell on the monkey in such a manner that I'm afraid it rather hurt his feelings. I expect to take out of temptations way next Wednesday when I'm going up to the hills where I hope to be cool again once more. All our letters are sent on from here so the present address will do if you really do make up your mind to write to me again.

 

[MaureenE]

I suspect that the   typed itinerary of the NWF familiarisation patrol which mentions Poannu has mis-transcribed the name from original  notes and that it should have been Bannu.

 

With the unsettled nature of conditions in the NWF, I think the men would be staying in secure accomodation in a cantonment at night and not out in a camp somewhere where they could be ambushed.

 

I looked in  The Imperial Gazetteer of India, but there was no entry for Poannu

https://dsal.uchicago.edu/reference/gazetteer/

 

Cheers

Maureen

[pjwmacro]

2 hours ago, Maureene said:

I suspect that the   typed itinerary of the NWF familiarisation patrol which mentions Poannu has mis-transcribed the name from original  notes and that it should have been Bannu.

 

Thanks Maureen.  That sounds most likely. 

[pjwmacro]

On 27/05/2017 at 22:16, david murdoch said:

Alan Gilmour (may have been injured as picture is of him in a hospital bed)"

Got some more information on this chap.

Gunner Allan Gilmour 2420

He was discharged due to fractured left leg. (possibly a motorcycle accident)

Silver War Badge No 418433

Enlisted 13/9/1915

Discharged 18/6/1918 (age 28)

 

Having gone through the majority of my grandfathers letters it rather looks as if Alan Gilmour's discharge was due to a sporting injury, not a motorcycle accident. And that he was in No3 Section.

 

Letter from R. Pindi dated Feb 15th 1917:

 

"The fellow from our Battery that had his leg broken has started for home at last. He left last Friday in a Hospital train with some 60 odd more men from Pindi for Bombay. They are expecting to go home round the Cape so it will be a good while before he arrives home."

 

And another letter from R. Pindi dated 18/2/19:

 

"I suppose that by now you are in your new department Demobilisation etc. [My grandmother went as a clerk/typist(?) to work in the BAOR Ministry of Munitions (Disposal Board) in Cologne through much of 1919 into 1920 - she didn't actually leave that job until I think some stage in 1920, after my grandfather recovered to UK and demobilisation in Nov/Dec 1919] I wonder if you know a gentleman named Gilmour who I believe is rather a big bag [or possibly "lag" - the writing is not very clear] there, his son is with him Alan by name, he was in our Bty in fact in my section & I think I told you about a young fellow [ironically Alan Gilmour was 5 years older than grandfather - according to his records!] who broke his leg in one of a section football matches soon after we arrived in India well that is the same fellow & I suppose it is possible that you know him already.

 

Interesting how serious an injury a broken leg was likely to be in those days - particularly in India.

 

And can anybody help? Are there any sort of records as to who might have been on the staff of the Demobilisation / Ministry of Munitions office of the BAOR offices in Cologne in 1919? If we can track a name (or even initials) for Gilmour senior then we might have a fighting chance of finding a little more about Alan Gilmour?

 

 

[pjwmacro]

On 18/06/2017 at 21:51, abowell97 said:

From left to right, in his words; "Sgt. Burke, 19th Bty, M.M.G., your humble, Sgt. Butt, Sgt. Fielder and Sgt. Bolger at Pindi in June, India."

 

Alex - david murdoch has reproduced this photo in the 19 Bty thread - to see if we can pick up any further lines on Sgt Burke. I`m curious as to why the 5 of them where photo'd together? Did they know each other from previously?

[abowell97]

2 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

I'm curious as to why the 5 of them where photo'd together? Did they know each other from previously?

 

I can't think of any reason why they would be in a group photograph, as I don't believe any other photos I have contain the other four men.

 

Must've known each other from somewhere, perhaps training in the UK prior to departure, or the PT training school. I went over the large PT group photo on page 14 of this forum, but I can't see any that resemble the other four (though most of the names were cut off).

[david murdoch]

Doing a bit more hunting to identify "Sgt Barton" who appeared in photo in The Motorcycle. Previously we have  Sgt. 2220 Alfred A.T. Barton as a best match. He appears on the MGC(M) roll as BWM only and in the same group as known 22nd Battery men - hinting his name was put forward for the roll. As we know this man is shown as being commissioned in Tank Corps and is also listed as 2nd Lt on Tank Corps BWM/VM roll.  I have found him in the Gazette listed as being commissioned 28/11/1917 and full name Alfred Augustus Tardif Barton. If this is the correct man, then it's likely he would have had to return to UK prior to this. Now with a full name to go on, finding more on him and he's no ordinary chap and can see strings could be pulled to bring him back from India. Parents Augustus Samuel Barton and Rachel Jane Tardif. His grandfather was Colonel William Robert Barton -  Colonel Commandant of the Royal Alderney Artillery Militia amongst other appointments.

Alfred was born 1879 St Martin, Guernsey. On 1911 Census his father is shown as being a retired army Captain, but possibly served in WW1. One of Alfred's younger brothers  Victor George Joseph Barton b.1898 d.1981 comes up as being Lieutenant in Indian army with 79th Carnatic Infantry (with a GSM for North Persia and Iraq) joined the Rajputana Rifles in 1923, retired in 1946 and in WW2 was Lt Colonel Indian Army later rose to rank of Brigadier General with OBE. Brigadier Victor George Joseph Barton, OBE, was born in 1898, and was commissioned into the 6th Rajputana Rifles in 1917. By 1939 he was a Major & Company CO, 3rd Batt. Raj. Rifles, and GSO 3 grade (I) Army in Burma; Temporary Lt. Col. 1941, & Lt. Col. 1943. he was awarded the OBE for Italy in 1945, as Acting Brigadier, 6th Rajputana Rifles.

Assuming Alfred is 22nd's Sgt Barton - he'd be 37 in 1916 and only appear in the earlier India photos - so looking at one of the older men in the group photos. Have now photos of his father and younger brother (by 19 years)  to compare and see a possible match. Not seeing him on recruitment lists in The Motorcycle, but he would have enlisted early August 1915. I found him on the1901 (Irish) Census aged about 20 and an electrician and again on 1911 (Irish) Census  - living as a single  boarder aged 32  at  27 Leinster Road (Rathmines & Rathgar West, Dublin) occupation electrician. He likely went to school / college in Dublin as his father served there and his brother was born there in 1898. He got married 1921 to Dorothy Daisy Walters in Wallingford, Berkshire. He died 1952 in Chatham, Kent  and she died July 1978 in Winchester, Hampshire.

 

[pjwmacro]

7 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Assuming Alfred is 22nd's Sgt Barton - he'd be 37 in 1916 and only appear in the earlier India photos - so looking at one of the older men in the group photos. Have now photos of his father and younger brother (by 19 years)  to compare and see a possible match.

 

More great sleuthing - thanks David. I`d agree the circled chap above is a possible match - and definitely looks late 30's. IIRC that photo is a Kuldanna Camp photo so 1916 - or potentially Tapa in 1917?  Sadly the photo in The Motor Cycle isn't really good enough, especially on the faces, to make comparisons.

[david murdoch]

8 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

More great sleuthing - thanks David. I`d agree the circled chap above is a possible match - and definitely looks late 30's. IIRC that photo is a Kuldanna Camp photo so 1916 - or potentially Tapa in 1917?  Sadly the photo in The Motor Cycle isn't really good enough, especially on the faces, to make comparisons.

Hopefully is the right man. Really would need to check his officer's record to see his background to prove he came back from 22nd MMG. At very least I now have background on 2220 for my MMGS folder. I'm sure I saw on a document he was 6th Tank Corps - perhaps with his age and technical background workshops rather than in a tank. Also I believe he was actually an electrical engineer rather than an electrician.