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Remembered Today:

22nd Battery Machine Gun Corps (Motors)


pjwmacro

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On ‎24‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 14:46, abowell97 said:

I couldn't find any mention of the 22nd Battery, perhaps due to it's non war-related service

Alex, the only mention I can find of 22 Battery at TNA, other than MICs, is the War Diary WO95/5392 - part of the Kohat-Kurram Force box.  It covers the 3rd Afghan War May to August 1919.  This is the only period you'd expect there to be a war diary for - as technically, when in India during 1916-18 - they were not in a war zone.   Best, Paul

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On ‎27‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 11:09, abowell97 said:

The scan isn't quite as detailed as the physical copy, but I tried to pick out the few faces I could recognise, though it seems a good mix from all sections.

My grandfather's copy of the same image.  Not as good quality as yours Alex.  I don't recognise anyone from this:

 

Also 2 more from the same page of my grandfather's album. In the lower photo, I think my grandfather Bill is the right hand figure.

 

And a third photo from the same time (1917) but on a completely different page.  Grandfather is (I think) the left hand figure.

Tapa 1 1917.jpg

Tapa 2 1917.jpg

Tapa 1917.jpg

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Great photos Paul, especially the last one.

 

15 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

This is the only period you'd expect there to be a war diary for - as technically, when in India during 1916-18 - they were not in a war zone.   Best, Paul

 

Thanks for clarifying, I assumed that might've been the case but wasn't entirely sure. I was recently going through the War Diaries for the 3rd Tank Battalion (particularly 1917) on TNA for Leonard Patrick, so I thought I'd double check about the 22nd Bty. Batteries not in war-zones like the 19th, 22nd, 23rd and 25th must've retained some sort of travel or activity log in India, but I suppose they must not have been preserved.

 

Regards,

Alex.

Edited by abowell97
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  • 2 months later...

@delta has recently reminded me of some information which is included in his excellent book The First Tank Crews.  Although not strictly relevant to India - it does show again that 22 Bty definitely formed in UK and trained at Bisley during 1915, before shipping out in Feb 1916. It also shows that the battery was losing members to commissioning even before they left UK shores, although the gaps were clearly filled before departure.

 
Herbert George Pearsall was born in Smethwick 17 Jul 1888 and was always known as George. Having obtained a scholarship he studied at Cambridge from 1907-11 and then became a schoolmaster. He enlisted at Dewsbury 6 Apr 1915 and joined the MMGS at Bisley on 14 May 1915 to become 619 Gunner Pearsall.  He was promoted Cpl on 18 Jun and then Sergeant on 14 Aug 15 with 22nd Bty.  Whilst still on their unit strength, he applied for a commission on 1 Jan 1916, which was countersigned by the CO MMGS Lt Col DW Bradley on 8 Jan.  After completing officer training at Cambridge he was commissioned into the MGC on 14 Apr 16. This information is confirmed in his officer file which is held by TNA, Kew. Lt Pearsall joined D Coy Heavy Section MGC and deployed to France with them in Aug 16. He commanded D11 Die Hard at Flers on 15 and 16 Sep 1916, the first time tanks were used in action, earning a MC in the process. He remained with the tanks throughout the war becoming a company commander first with D Battalion and then with 1st Battalion. He was discharged in early 1919, before sadly succumbing to Spanish Flu 19 Mar 1919.  We remember him still.  
 
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Still looking to find further copies of MOMAGU.  Anyone able to help??

 

 

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I have posted this photo before - but I think as a photograph of a scan displayed on the computer screen. This is at least a photo of the photo - although still not great quality. Posting because it's one of the few I have managed to extract from my grandfather's album.  It is notated on the back: Some of the Officers & NCOs late of 22nd Bty at G. (Gondal).  The page has the caption Gondal 1919. MGC Concentration and Demonstration Camp.

 

offrs-ncos-gondal-1919.jpg

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On ‎06‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 20:35, pjwmacro said:

I have posted this photo before - but I think as a photograph of a scan displayed on the computer screen. This is at least a photo of the photo - although still not great quality. Posting because it's one of the few I have managed to extract from my grandfather's album.  It is notated on the back: Some of the Officers & NCOs late of 22nd Bty at G. (Gondal).  The page has the caption Gondal 1919. MGC Concentration and Demonstration Camp.

 

offrs-ncos-gondal-1919.jpg

Paul. The original posting was post #104. I posted some observations on it, but will revisit and see if can make any further identifications. I've tried enhancing this one to get  better look.

offrs-ncos-gondal-1919.jpg.6e34032d21595de962ecc199401fb7c3.jpg

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On 06/12/2018 at 22:35, pjwmacro said:

I have posted this photo before - but I think as a photograph of a scan displayed on the computer screen. This is at least a photo of the photo - although still not great quality. Posting because it's one of the few I have managed to extract from my grandfather's album.  It is notated on the back: Some of the Officers & NCOs late of 22nd Bty at G. (Gondal).  The page has the caption Gondal 1919. MGC Concentration and Demonstration Camp.

 

I'm fairly certain the two men in the middle with the dogs are both from No.1 Section (in the image below), though there are a few there that I haven't seen in any other photos. The man on the left in the image below, and middle in your image crops up quite a lot, though I'm not sure who he is. 

 

1010110688_IMG_0003(3).jpg.01f0310dec5af10c2493f2c4636fafbb.jpg

Edited by abowell97
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On ‎08‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 16:39, abowell97 said:

I'm fairly certain the two men in the middle with the dogs are both from No.1 Section (in the image below), though there are a few there that I haven't seen in any other photos. The man on the left in the image below, and middle in your image crops up quite a lot, though I'm not sure who he is.

You could well be right Alex - that centre parting is pretty distinctive. Regards, Paul

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On ‎08‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 11:43, david murdoch said:

I've tried enhancing this one to get  better look.

Thanks David. I don't think my grandfather, Ernest "Bill" Macro,  is in the picture - but if he is then he`d be the rear row right hand figure (looking at the picture). Regards, Paul

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Another photo from the page of my grandfather's album captioned "Gondal 1919. MGC Concentration and Demonstration Camp" The photo has puzzelled me for a while - and it is not particularly clear so it is difficult to make out exactly what is going on.  Having eventually extracted it from the album, the caption on the back reads:

 

"2 men of 22nd Battery at Gondal amusing themselves with an ??? Ariel ??? intended for MMGS use (They have been condemned as useless reason is obvious)"

 

I believe the word is 'Ariel' - which I think is a motorcycle make? Can anyone confirm - or shed further light?

experiment-gondal-1919.jpg

experiment-back-1919.jpg

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13 minutes ago, pjwmacro said:

Another photo from the page of my grandfather's album captioned "Gondal 1919. MGC Concentration and Demonstration Camp" The photo has puzzelled me for a while - and it is not particularly clear so it is difficult to make out exactly what is going on.  Having eventually extracted it from the album, the caption on the back reads:

 

"2 men of 22nd Battery at Gondal amusing themselves with an ??? Ariel ??? intended for MMGS use (They have been condemned as useless reason is obvious)"

 

I believe the word is 'Ariel' - which I think is a motorcycle make? Can anyone confirm - or shed further light?

experiment-gondal-1919.jpg

experiment-back-1919.jpg

Paul - Yes Ariel is a make of motorcycle. I'll see if I can identify which model.

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8 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

I think it's likely  the slightly bigger 5.6 hp 600 v twin version. The front end is pretty similar but no disc. In the original photo just the forward cylinder visible.

1916_V-Twin_600cc.jpg

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1 hour ago, david murdoch said:

I think it's likely  the slightly bigger 5.6 hp 600 v twin version. The front end is pretty similar but no disc. In the original photo just the forward cylinder visible.

 

An even better match. :)

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Thank you @david murdoch and @Andrew Upton. Agree definitely looks like an Ariel. My confusion is I cannot make out my grandfather's photo clearly enough - I cannot see whether there is something special that makes them intended for use by the MMGS - is there a side car - or is there an extended platform for load / person carrying at the back of the bike - and which then causes the front wheel to come off the ground when it's loaded up?  (hence its condemnation as useless)

 

Regards, Paul

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Another page from my grandfather's (A/Sgt Ernest Macro - 22 Bty MMGS) photo album of his time in India during the Great War and 3rd Afghan War. Believed to be BE2Es - despite the caption saying BE2Cs. Sqn unconfirmed - but probably 31 Sqn. At Gondal in 1919. I think probably linked to a MGC Concentration and Demonstration Camp. Photos on the opposite page (some of which I have included at posts # 734 and # 739) are captioned as such. We believe Sgt Macro trained, Aug - Nov 18, as a pilot on BE2Cs - but at a trg Sqn in Egypt, not in India.

Regards, Paul

BE2Cs-gondal.jpg

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13 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

Thank you @david murdoch and @Andrew Upton. Agree definitely looks like an Ariel. My confusion is I cannot make out my grandfather's photo clearly enough - I cannot see whether there is something special that makes them intended for use by the MMGS - is there a side car - or is there an extended platform for load / person carrying at the back of the bike - and which then causes the front wheel to come off the ground when it's loaded up?  (hence its condemnation as useless)

 

Regards, Paul

Paul. For sure Ariel produced this motorcycle with commercial sidecar option. Looking closely at this photo I think this is actually a "gun carrier", but I suspect it's possibly a one off  "made in India".There is a tubular frame with what appears to be a heavy spoked car wheel. The  frame curves up at the front and just forward of the rider's shoulder what is possibly the gun mount. I could see a couple of things I'd not like about it. The gun mount would make the gun sit very high (compared to a Clyno), and the gunners seat pad is set way back with no support, so the centre of gravity would be all over the place and Imagine pretty uncomfortable to travel any distance. Also the moving sidecar wheel is between the gunners feet - though there does appear to be some kind of mud/stone guard fitted. In the case of this photo they are obviously playing around with it pulling a wheelie - deliberately picking up the front wheel - but that would be easy to do given the weight distribution. It's likely by this point in time the original Clynos they shipped out with would be pretty well worn out after years of rough roads and this was just something cobbled together with what was available. I don't know if they ever received replacement motorcycles over the duration or just kept the original ones running.

Ariel-1916-5-6-h.p-Twin-Cylinder-Combination-with-Coach-Built-Side-Car.jpg

experiment-gondal-1919.jpg.38ff706471704a0dd762a8bbf0af1148.jpg

JPJamieson_852x628.png.2a49b0c8f21d9cb3a79b072a07ea1679 - Copy (2).png

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2 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

Another page from my grandfather's (A/Sgt Ernest Macro - 22 Bty MMGS) photo album of his time in India during the Great War and 3rd Afghan War. Believed to be BE2Es - despite the caption saying BE2Cs. Sqn unconfirmed - but probably 31 Sqn. At Gondal in 1919. I think probably linked to a MGC Concentration and Demonstration Camp. Photos on the opposite page (some of which I have included at posts # 734 and # 739) are captioned as such. We believe Sgt Macro trained, Aug - Nov 18, as a pilot on BE2Cs - but at a trg Sqn in Egypt, not in India.

Regards, Paul

 

Paul. Online database of RFC/RAF tail numbers has that one as a BE2E. The BE2Es had different size upper and lower wings and only have one set of wing struts the earlier models had two, so from the photos certainly a BE2E. For sure by this time the BE2C was obsolete - so probably only used for training - however they were still in use in places like NWF. In the photo looks like the big 22nd Battery dog (not sure if he was Billy or Peter) who appears in various photos!

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On ‎16‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 14:56, david murdoch said:

Paul. Online database of RFC/RAF tail numbers has that one as a BE2E. The BE2Es had different size upper and lower wings and only have one set of wing struts the earlier models had two, so from the photos certainly a BE2E. For sure by this time the BE2C was obsolete - so probably only used for training - however they were still in use in places like NWF. In the photo looks like the big 22nd Battery dog (not sure if he was Billy or Peter) who appears in various photos!

David

Agreed - miscaptioned by my Grandfather - definitely BE2Es (not BE2Cs). I`m not sure what he trained on - but I suspect it was BE2Cs at the Flying Training School in Egypt. - I know it was Egypt.

And agreed - either Billy or Peter the dog - but I`ve yet to see a photo which clearly identifies either. They are either both in the picture - or if it's just one then they aren't named in the caption!

Regards, Paul

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On ‎16‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 12:34, david murdoch said:

Paul. For sure Ariel produced this motorcycle with commercial sidecar option. Looking closely at this photo I think this is actually a "gun carrier", but I suspect it's possibly a one off  "made in India".There is a tubular frame with what appears to be a heavy spoked car wheel. The  frame curves up at the front and just forward of the rider's shoulder what is possibly the gun mount. I could see a couple of things I'd not like about it. The gun mount would make the gun sit very high (compared to a Clyno), and the gunners seat pad is set way back with no support, so the centre of gravity would be all over the place and Imagine pretty uncomfortable to travel any distance. Also the moving sidecar wheel is between the gunners feet - though there does appear to be some kind of mud/stone guard fitted. In the case of this photo they are obviously playing around with it pulling a wheelie - deliberately picking up the front wheel - but that would be easy to do given the weight distribution. It's likely by this point in time the original Clynos they shipped out with would be pretty well worn out after years of rough roads and this was just something cobbled together with what was available. I don't know if they ever received replacement motorcycles over the duration or just kept the original ones running.

David

Makes sense your point about it being locally modified. I`m guessing the crew may have been "horsing around" in order to make the point - but it certainly doesn't compare with the Clyno in terms of design. Also agree the Clynos would have been well worn by the that stage (3 years in India / on the NWF) - highlighting the importance of a good Battery Sergeant Mechanic in the shape of Alfred Fielder. I have, however, come across no form of paper that suggests replacement cycles were being shipped to India - so my feeling is that, as we have discussed before, India was at the hind teat when it came to supplies and re-equipment, so I am guessing they were mending and "making do". And that sort of ingenuity shows up in the local manufacture of armoured cars.

Regards

Paul

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On ‎11‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 00:00, david murdoch said:

I've found a casualty relating to 22nd Battery. One of the ASC lads.

Pte/Driver William Arthur Cordwell. M2/101516. Died Age 33 Rawalpindi 5/4/1918, buried 6/4/1918 Rawalpindi War Cemetery.

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/909563/CORDWELL, WILLIAM ARTHUR

Born 1/1/1885 Enfield, resident South Kensington.

Found on 1911 Census  -  was single and  occupation Motor Car Driver.

Going back the older Census he had two older brothers, two older sisters and two younger sisters.

Checking on Ancestry he has been researched by a family descendent - I've sent a message to this person. 

 

I'm sure he will be in some of the group photos and be one of the older ones. Presuming he died of illness - medal roll just stated died.

 

Just been doing a little more digging into William Cordwell. - and came up with his "Record of effects". Does this indicate he was married? Possibly to "Miriam"?? I have been digging again- but cannot find a marriage record - but complicated in that William Cordwell is not an uncommon name - indeed I have just come across another William Arthur Cordwell still living in 1935 on the Bethnal Green electoral returns.

 

Regards, Paul

Cordwell-pension.jpg

Cordwell-pension-2.jpg

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11 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

Just been doing a little more digging into William Cordwell. - and came up with his "Record of effects". Does this indicate he was married? Possibly to "Miriam"?? I have been digging again- but cannot find a marriage record - but complicated in that William Cordwell is not an uncommon name - indeed I have just come across another William Arthur Cordwell still living in 1935 on the Bethnal Green electoral returns.

 

Regards, Paul

Cordwell-pension.jpg

Cordwell-pension-2.jpg

He's on several public family trees on Ancestry. When I looked him up before  on the 1911 Census he's shown as being 26 and a motor driver. He's shown as single and living with his mother and two younger sisters Florence and Maggie. His mother was Mary Ann Phipps (Cordwell) However on some of the trees he's shown as being married 31/3/1907 to Lillie Brien and having a son Willian (b.1910) and a daughter Florence (b.1912 d. 2004). I really can't make out the names of the beneficiaries on the soldier's effects, but for sure a married man. However there is a pension record for this man having joined the 9th West Yorkshire Regiment  as private 11975 on 1/9/1914 and discharged 3/11/1914 on medical grounds. On the record shows his wife being  Lillie Brien and daughter Florence Alice (implying the son died as a small child), and giving London address. I suspect he may have re enlisted in 1915 possibly not disclosing his previous enlistment, or possibly he was considered fit as a driver but not for infantry. On all these family trees he's shown as dying Rawalpindi 5/4/1918.

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