22nd Battery Machine Gun Corps (Motors)

[david murdoch]

Quick look at those additional names #

Sgt. Davis appears in one of the UK photos  but have not yet tracked him down. So presumably an original Section NCO. If he transferred to another battery he may have then ended up in Heavy Branch and re numbered in Tank Corps. 

Pearsall was was 619 Cpl. Herbert George Pearsall MC He left the battery and commissioned 14/4/1916 then served with D Coy Heavy Branch and then Tank Corps. 

Luckmans is possibly M2/115697 Pte William Henry  Luckman. His MIC and roll show he only received the British War Medal - and indicator he was in India. Is number is within the range of other 22nd Battery ASC men.

BSM Colgan is likely 1943 WOII Herbert Colgan He was ex 4963 Royal Munster Fusiliers. He has BWM/VM and listed as MMGS RA and MGC(M). He has a discharge date 9/12/1919 so possibly stayed in India with another unit. 

BSM Willis - I need to look some more - he may have remained in UK  and does not have a medal record. 

[pjwmacro]

On 03/05/2022 at 03:52, david murdoch said:

Quick look at those additional names

Thanks for that David

Pearsall - I know about - he commanded D9 Dolly (iirc) at the first use of tanks in action at Flers -Coucelette 15 Sep 1916. I think that is included previously on this thread.

Davis I recall seeing the photo previously but I think clear he didn't ship to India with the battery. I`ll photo the relevant section of the MOMAGU and post when I have a bit of time.

As I said, Willis, Colgan and Luckmans all new names to me - but 1943 Herbert Colgan sounds a good bet to me. Maybe sent to an Armoured Motor Unit? And Willis not going overseas fits with the MOMAGU wording.

Regards, Paul

Edited 5 May , 2022 by pjwmacro

[pjwmacro]

@JPJamie @abowell97- thought you in particular would find the photography section interesting. Arthur Sutcliffe is mentioned as a cricket team member - but I`m afraid I haven't found direct mention yet of JP Jamieson or Walter Patrick.

Regards, Paul

[abowell97]

7 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

@JPJamie @abowell97- thought you in particular would find the photography section interesting.

Definitely! An absolute gem of a find - Funny it mentions the inordinate number of budding photographers, it at least explains the relatively huge photographic footprint the Battery left - though we're incredibly lucky that they did have so many of 'em! Really looking forward to any more info about the magazine.

Edited 3 May , 2022 by abowell97

[david murdoch]

8 hours ago, abowell97 said:

Definitely! An absolute gem of a find - Funny it mentions the inordinate number of budding photographers, it at least explains the relatively huge photographic footprint the Battery left - though we're incredibly lucky that they did have so many of 'em! Really looking forward to any more info about the magazine.

For sure there must be other albums out there that may eventually surface and help expand on the knowledge of the battery and it's members. They are probably lucky to have had Charles Keddie who was a photographic process operator to trade - he was likely a leading player in this photographic group and would have the knowledge of chemicals and developing process.

[pjwmacro]

On 03/05/2022 at 03:52, david murdoch said:

BSM Colgan is likely 1943 WOII Herbert Colgan

He has two pension records on ancestry which I cannot access. But appears to have been married to Georgina. Will do some digging and start a tree.

https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=61588&h=157374228&tid=&pid=&queryId=5606300bac5e44996a5bd70cdc565ead&usePUB=true#?_phcmd=u('https://www.ancestry.com/search/categories/39/?name%3DHerbert_Colgan%26birth%3D1890%26count%3D50%26keyword%3D1943%26keyword_x%3D1%26location%3D3257.3250%26name_x%3D_1%26priority%3Dunited-kingdom%26successSource%3DSearch%26queryId%3D5606300bac5e44996a5bd70cdc565ead','successSource')

https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=61588&h=1758727&tid=&pid=&queryId=5606300bac5e44996a5bd70cdc565ead&usePUB=true&_phsrc=BuF309&_phstart=successSource

 

[pjwmacro]

A further page from MOMAGU - the "Personal" page - I assume "Personnel"!  With thanks to @david murdoch for additional details:

Sgt Major Willis appears to have been the original BSM. Currently it appears he remained in UK  and does not have a medal record.

Sgt Pearsall was was 619 Cpl. Herbert George Pearsall MC He left the battery and commissioned 14/4/1916 then served with D Coy Heavy Branch and then Tank Corps.  He commanded D9 Dolly at the first use of tanks in action at Flers -Coucelette 15 Sep 1916 and is included previously on this thread.

Sgt Barton has also been covered previously in this thread - he appears to have transfered and commissioned to the Tank Corps, but not clear if he subsequently deployed to France.

Sgt Davis: We originally discussed him in the thread (page 31). From that, the photo we saw was in wintertime - cold and with the leaves off the trees. So by that he was still with the battery in late 1915 or possibly early 1916 and left  just before the battery went to India. Some of the transfers out of the battery may have been the result of some men not being fully fit at the time as they  would have a pre deployment medical going overseas. Also there is a possibility some requested transfer - by this time quite a few of them had been sitting around six months or more and were keen to get into action. As probably one of the original battery sergeants, he must have been with MMGS from around mid 1915 or earlier so his original service number would be below 2000. By the timing he must have transferred to another MMG battery. There are several possibilities - he may have transferred to one of the three batteries who all went to France  on 6th February 1916, but then been rolled into Heavy Branch in November1916. He may also have moved to one of those remaining batteries that remained in UK that were later disbanded and re purposed, so ended up in Heavy Section. So likely he was renumbered in the Tank Corps but his original service number is not on his MIC.

 

"Gunner Davey"  was  1556  William Davey he went from 22nd MMG to 9th MMG then to D Battalion Heavy Branch in November 1916. He renumbered as 200755 Tank Corps. He has a surviving service record. He enlisted 2nd June 1915 at Coventry - so presumably through The Motorcycle. Does not appear to have been awarded DCM.

 "Lance Corporal Purves" was 1585 William James Purves born in Uddingston but living in Cupar Angus in Perthshire. He served with 12th L.A.M.B in Palestine. He is recorded as dying of wounds 26/3/1917 but is recorded on Jerusalem Memorial 

 "Gunner Marks"  was  1573 Henry Eveylin Marks.  He was discharged 14/2/1919 class Z reserve, so possibly wounded previously but not discharged due to wounds. 

 "Sgt Low" was 1568 Reginald John Low DCM,MiD from Dunfermline, Fife. He served transferred to 21st MMG then to 11th/12th  L.A.M.Bs hence his information regarding Purves.  He died in Scotland in 28/1/1923 of Malaria  aged 31!

Gunner Gunner Gilmour is Alan Gilmour, the footballer whose photo appears in his hospital bed earlier in the thread. We know he was casevac to UK and eventually discharged with a SWB but thereafter I loose track of him. (He is also mentioned in my grandfathers's letters)

 " Gunner Hunter" was 1563  James Alexander Hunter from Newport, Fife. He had a disability pension then his widow had a pension - possibly died Canada in 1927

Of those mentioned by Hunter:-  

"Gunner Plummer" was 1471 Godfrey Plummer from Coventry. Enlisted 26/5/1915  He has a medical discharge record showing he went to German East Africa in February 1916 -  and hospitalised multiple times with Malaria and other tropical ailments. He was in hospital in Egypt and then back to UK by 1918 with reserve battery. 

"Gunner Stanley" likely to be 843 George Robert Stanley  - units unknown but has a pension card indicating Malaria.

"Gunner Grant " may be 1784 William Grant.

 You can see from this majority enlisted close together then allocated to 22nd MMG when it was formed  - those numbers being close or consecutive to other's who remained with the battery. 

 

 

[pjwmacro]

The full article, 5 pages, from MOMAGU on the May 1916 familiarisation tour of the NWF. From the diary of Lieutenant James Hargreaves.

[abowell97]

Some great details in that! A fantastic find, thanks for sharing Paul

[pjwmacro]

As has been stated before, sport obviously played a big part in Battery life during the India years. Very much borne out by my grandfather's letters home, the recollections and photos of others and of course MOMAGU the battery magazine. Attached here the Hockey and Cricket reports from MOMAGU, including the score card from the Officers and NCOs v the Gunners cricket match. Looks like the Gunners triumphed. Largely familiar names here (and a number that we have photos for) - less Luckmann. Note Driver Cordwell ASC - the battery's only known death, d 5 Apr 1918. Pleased to see my grandfather (who appears to have been the Officers/NCOs wicket keeper as he is credited with a couple of stumpings) scored more runs than Arthur Sutcliffe (Herbert's older brother!). Hope of interest.

Regards, Paul

[david murdoch]

BSM 1943 WOII Herbert Colgan He was ex 4963 Royal Munster Fusiliers. He has BWM/VM and listed as MMGS RA and MGC(M). He has a discharge date 9/12/1919. I found a pension card for him which showed he claimed for having neurasthenia "an ill-defined medical condition characterized by lassitude, fatigue, headache, and irritability, associated chiefly with emotional disturbance". The card shows he was from Ennisville Co Clare  hence previous Irish regiment. He was single and born 1894, so not that old. I found him on a family tree which does not have much information, however shows him aged 17 on the 1911 census and marriage 29th July 1925 to Georgina Garrahy in Ennis. They had two daughters Edith and Mabel, but I have no death record, though Edith died 2011 in Ennis.

[pjwmacro]

20 hours ago, david murdoch said:

ex 4963 Royal Munster Fusiliers

I haven't searched but given the above, one wonders if there is a Gallipoli connection given the battery OC, Maj Moloney,  was Royal Dublin Fusilierd and went ashore 25 Apr from the SS River Clyde, and 1st Bn Royal Munster Fusiliers also went ashore from the SS River Clyde. Which would entitle him to 1915 Star. Or if 2nd Bn then he would be a 1914 Star man. But maybe he was a territorial force Munster and switched direct from there to MGC(M).

[david murdoch]

1 hour ago, pjwmacro said:

I haven't searched but given the above, one wonders if there is a Gallipoli connection given the battery OC, Maj Moloney,  was Royal Dublin Fusilierd and went ashore 25 Apr from the SS River Clyde, and 1st Bn Royal Munster Fusiliers also went ashore from the SS River Clyde. Which would entitle him to 1915 Star. Or if 2nd Bn then he would be a 1914 Star man. But maybe he was a territorial force Munster and switched direct from there to MGC(M).

No- only BWM/VM on his card and a late July 1915 numbering in  MMGS. He must have served somewhere other than India to be entitled to the pair, but that could be a similar scenario to your grandfather. Also no other rank than WO II - he did not jump straight into either. There is a possibility he actually joined MMGS earlier but his paperwork never caught up and he got a higher number (as I've seen in several cases) when they sorted it out. He was not on the Hythe course in late 1914 where a number of the BSMs attended as Sergeants. However on his marriage certificate it gives his father's occupation as soldier, so it's probable he was a pre war regular under another number, or possibly a territorial who discharged to re enlist in regular army, though he would be only 21 in 1915. I found a service record for his father Patrick Colgan  - he was a Colour Sergeant in Royal Munster Fusiliers serving 1883-1910! Would make sense Herbert joining them young - pre war.

Edited 21 June , 2022 by david murdoch

[pjwmacro]

23 hours ago, david murdoch said:

so it's probable he was a pre war regular under another number, or possibly a territorial who discharged to re enlist in regular army, though he would be only 21 in 1915

Thanks for looking

[pjwmacro]

Just noticed in the "Personal" page of the MOMAGU - the entry reference Sjt Whitfield. Transfered to 25th Calcutta Volunteer Battery. This fits with a June 1917 letter written by my grandfather: By the way last Saturday Acting/L/Cpl Macro was promoted Cpl. This occurred because our Section Sgt got transferred to the 25th Bty and is on his way to Egypt with them now. So the section Cpl and myself got a step up. It was just about 18 months before that I got my first stripe.

This would suggest Sjt Whitfield was a) No 3 Section Serjeant and b) was MMGS rather than ASC. Trawling through Whitfields on ancestry now to see if I can identify any candidates. No joy yet!

[pjwmacro]

Attached the Football report from MOMAGU - note the mention of Alan Gilmour's injury. Again my grandfather refers to this in his letters home. I think I have Gnr Hargreaves medal from this league - see P35. CFL = Cambridge Football League??

Edited 9 July , 2022 by pjwmacro

[pjwmacro]

And the Motor Sport report. A new name to me here: Gnr T K Taylor

[david murdoch]

2 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

Just noticed in the "Personal" page of the MOMAGU - the entry reference Sjt Whitfield. Transfered to 25th Calcutta Volunteer Battery. This fits with a June 1917 letter written by my grandfather: By the way last Saturday Acting/L/Cpl Macro was promoted Cpl. This occurred because our Section Sgt got transferred to the 25th Bty and is on his way to Egypt with them now. So the section Cpl and myself got a step up. It was just about 18 months before that I got my first stripe.

This would suggest Sjt Whitfield was a) No 3 Section Serjeant and b) was MMGS rather than ASC. Trawling through Whitfields on ancestry now to see if I can identify any candidates. No joy yet!

On the battery roster I still has Whitfield as an unknown and no first name or initial to go on, It certainly places him as being MGC seeing the promotions gained by his departure. There are a few service records for members of the Calcutta battery . Showing them forming in November 1916. The embarked from Bombay on 13th June 1917 and arrived Suez 2nd July 1917. It makes sense they would need experienced NCOs as they were really a bunch of amatuers! They did not last very long in Egypt before being disbanded. Some of them were sent home and some ended up with the armoured car units in Palestine and a couple went to ASC motor transport. Whitfield is still a mystery as  I can't find an MIC that would fit - as he should by rights have a fairly low MMGS number. The way this reads he was probably transferred to Calcutta Battery as an experienced NCO but then trying to transfer out to an OTC - so it appears he possibly commissioned or transferred to some other regiment or corps. One would have thought he would still have been included on the list for the medal roll with the rest of the battery, though if he went elsewhere he would be entitled to BWM and VM.

[pjwmacro]

5 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Whitfield is still a mystery as  I can't find an MIC that would fit - as he should by rights have a fairly low MMGS number. The way this reads he was probably transferred to Calcutta Battery as an experienced NCO but then trying to transfer out to an OTC - so it appears he possibly commissioned or transferred to some other regiment or corps. One would have thought he would still have been included on the list for the medal roll with the rest of the battery, though if he went elsewhere he would be entitled to BWM and VM.

Agree all. I was checking service records and pension records last night but didn't find any candidates. I will try a more methodical search as I get some time - and keep tabs of who I have checked. Another avenue I haven't tried yet is officer records at Kew - but I suspect it will produce lots of potential candidates without initials and no means of focusing without a personal visit

[pjwmacro]

On 17/07/2017 at 18:37, david murdoch said:

The one of the  lads with servants - In those days would normally be officers had an other rank as a servant, but out in India, probably most ordinary soldiers could afford one too. Very likely each barrack or group would have several shared "house boys" as cleaners, washing, mending and ironing kit, running errands ect, also a punkah wallah (manual a/c). I have photo from Mesopotamia where they had similar ( NCOs at least).

There is a piece about servants in MOMAGU. I will photo and post.

[pjwmacro]

On 10/07/2022 at 04:24, david murdoch said:

On the battery roster I still has Whitfield as an unknown and no first name or initial to go on,

Just realised that I did some "Whifield digging" back in 2017 and posted this (see page 18):

Just been doing some digging for Sgt Whitfield. The following might be worth checking out - certainly not exhaustive, and I have no more info than that below - taken from MIC transcripts , not the actual MICs:

MGC: (earlyish service numbers)

0248 Sgt Herbert J Whitfield MGC originally N Staffs, (1705), subsequently Tank Corps (205520) 

3527 CSM H Whitfield MGC,

2924 Pte Howard Whitfield MGC

ASC: (M2 service numbers in same ball park as other 22 Bty ASC atts)

A/Cpl Alfred Whitfield ASC M2/137450

Sgt Thomas D Whitfield ASC M2/119567

Pte William Whitfield ASC M2/051250

Pte Walter S Whitfield ASC M2/101006

Pte Thomas H Whitfield ASC M2/133025

Pte Samuel J Whitfield ASC M2/033211

Pte Frederick C Whitfield ASC M2/114821

Pte Thomas Whitfield ASC M2/119369

 

There is also a ASC 2Lt GH Whitfield recorded on a MIC as IARO - might be a possibility if he commissioned like Kellett.

 

I haven't tried searching for different spellings of Whitfield ( ie Wittfield, Witfield, Whitefield, Whitfeld)!

 

I will have another go at these - starting with 0248 Herbert J

[pjwmacro]

48 minutes ago, pjwmacro said:

0248 Sgt Herbert J Whitfield MGC originally N Staffs, (1705), subsequently Tank Corps (205520) 

I'm almost sure it's NOT Herbert John Whitfield above. He has a service record which suggests in June 1916 he was transferring (or re-enlisting) from 6th Bn N Staffs to MGC

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=gvx2944&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&_phtarg=gvx2938,gvx2939,gvx2940,gvx2941,gvx2942,gvx2943&dbid=1219&gsfn=Herbert J&gsln=Whitfield&gsfn_x=NN&gsln_x=NN&cp=11&new=1&rank=1&uidh=uxo&redir=false&msT=1&gss=angs-d&pcat=39&fh=6&h=2069124&recoff=&ml_rpos=7&queryId=8c7d306830cfc93ab353dd82b9cb492d&_gl=1*srm03j*_ga*NzYzMjU3Ni4xNjEwMDk5MzI5*_ga_4QT8FMEX30*MTY1NzUyMTQ0Ny4zMy4xLjE2NTc1Mjg1NTguMA..

[pjwmacro]

2 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

2924 Pte Howard Whitfield MGC

It is NOT 2924 Gunner Howard Whitfield. He enlisted too late (1 March 1916) into MGC Hvy Section and discharged with a SWB 25 Nov 1916 @delta - this man sounds like a First Tank Crew - are you aware of him?

[pjwmacro]

2 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

3527 CSM H Whitfield MGC

This man remains a possibility - but I cannot find a MIC for him - the only MIC is DCM citation from 1918 in France with 31st Bn MGC. I cannot find anything else - so I think a possibility but not hugely likely.

[delta]

2 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

It is NOT 2924 Gunner Howard Whitfield. He enlisted too late (1 March 1916) into MGC Hvy Section and discharged with a SWB 25 Nov 1916 @delta - this man sounds like a First Tank Crew - are you aware of him?

I wasn't but have just found his service record. Thanks for sharing.  

He was mobilised and joined the MMGS at Bisley on 10 Mar, then was posted to the ACS  and the HS MGC on 4 May. (usual pattern for HS MGC personnel) 

Posted to F coy on its formation on 27 May 1916 and then discharged 6 months later as no longer physically fit for military service.