Pt. Harry Farr. shot at dawn, Carnoy, Oct. 18th. 1916

[johnboy]

If he was recovered from a ' lost' grave without a marker it would not have been possible to ID him. I imagine that he would have been stripped of all army ID. Uniform, pay book. Id disc and any regimental badges.

[TEW]

The IWM source description simply said question of location of husband's grave;

Perhaps these are abridged versions, IWM seem to suggest there are copyright issues. All the same, full unedited versions would now be fantastic, even the bits that don't make good radio time. Not sure who Blakeway Associates are, they presumably have the originals.

I suspect there are bits that were deemed unusable, refusals to answer a question can be just as telling.

It seems Gertrude's Vicar assumed he had been written to by the attending Chaplain to break the news to Gertrude. She already new because the WO had told her, this disgusted the Vicar, that she had been informed in such a callous manner.

Blindfold

Gerturde mentions he refused the blindfold at the place of execution, in other cases the blindfold was applied in the holding cell (seemingly not optional). I guess variations dictate this part of the process, distance, type of ground to be walked over. In the other case I've referred to, the condemned man spent much of his last night with his Chaplan and the APM by the invite of the condemned. If such an informal gathering could take place it's difficult not to think some of these finer points could be discussed in private.

TEW

[johnboy]

Gerturde mentions he refused the blindfold at the place of execution

This may or may not have happened. It could be Gertrude trying to say that he was not coward. Officers sometimes wrote to parents along the lines that their son was the best man in the battalion, well liked etc.

[seaforths]

A few thoughts...the interview was broadcast on Radio 4 in August 1993. They may have just used extracts from a full interview which was edited and it is that which is on the site via the links TEW posted. Because these pieces have already been in the public domain, there are less copyright issues involved. It is also on the site of an educational establishment and they can purchase a blanket copyright, which allows them to re-use anything from TV and radio, that has previously been broadcast for educational purposes. The whole of the tapes in their entirety, may have been placed with the IWM and as such they have to protect the whole, as all of it has probably not been broadcast in the public domain.

Edit: typo corrected.

[TEW]

But perhaps Blakeway Associates have the full 'let the tape run all day' version which includes soundchecks, tea breaks, off record discussions, re-takes & upsets.

TEW

[TEW]

If anyone wants to take this up feel free!

Carnoy cemetery

Using ‘find a cemetery’ shows 826 casualties. ‘Find war Dead’ shows 827 casualties. Not totted up a total as yet.

Looking through the GRRF files causes me some problems:

doc1978905.jpg GRRF list of 11/8/1920 gives

9267 Rfn. G E Watson 20/KRRC died 17/8/1916 and was buried in row D grave 31

By November 1920 Watson’s body had been found about 10 Km to the northeast and his body concentrated into Guillemont cemetery. He was given a new date of death as 18/8/1916

The GRU then excavate row D grave 31 (date unknown) and find something to ID the occupier as

---und, later changed to Pound

So, Z/8376 Gnr. R E Pound, C 80 Bde. RFA who died 7/8/1916 was the original occupant.

How can this happen?? The GRU found something to ID the man in 1920 but the original burial party 1916 gave him an incorrect ID.

Next, GRRF 11/8/1920

B.999 Pte. G Fain 8^th East Surreys, died 2/7/16 and was buried row F grave 26.

Possibly after checking regimental records the GRU found no such man in the army (check ancestry).

His grave was probably excavated and they found 15999 Pte G Sarnsum 8^th Suffolks who had died 27/6/1916. Similar sort of number but still a mystery where the name & regiment came from.

There are more, try finding

H. Bevin, 8^th East Surreys, whoever he was became a UBS

1199 Pte. J R Boston 163 Bde. RFA died 14/7/1916 row G grave 31 also became UBS

2 Germans were buried in row O grave 20, both removed 1920 and now vacant

Row U graves 1-8. 1-3 contained 3 Germans removed in 1920. Graves 4, 5 & 6 renumbered to 1, 2, 3. Grave 7 also German and removed (now vacant?). Grave 8 renumbered to 4.

Could be a bit of a task methinks!

TEW

[johnboy]

Does gunner Pound have a Z prefix?

[johnboy]

Its OK. He is shown as 28376

[seaforths]

But perhaps Blakeway Associates have the full 'let the tape run all day' version which includes soundchecks, tea breaks, off record discussions, re-takes & upsets.

TEW

Seems very mixed up but creators different on IWM their site shows Blakeway Associates or Julian Putkowski. Possible that the latter handed over the material to the former for commercial editing and broadcasting. Also possible that both are credited with being creators in different forms and they may retain the rights and copyright to their respective creations but nonetheless appear to have given copies to IWM . Seems that those regarding the grave questions were created by Julian Putkowski.

Edit: typo corrected.

[johnboy]

I think the book by Julian Putkowski was published the year before the broadcast. I wonder if he updated if there was a second edition?

[seaforths]

I think the book by Julian Putkowski was published the year before the broadcast. I wonder if he updated if there was a second edition?

It seems to have undergone revisions. The eighth (possibly last) impression was February 1999. I've just downloaded an iBook sample to see what lies within.

[TEW]

I think the z prefix came from a misread numbered object. Ditto for B.999 which was 15999. Obviously a difficult and grim task during the war and one being repeated to this day.

TEW

[seaforths]

Unfortunately, although it says 'new and revised edition', I can't see anything in the sample pages that indicate what revisions have been made throughout the book.

[johnboy]

If he knew the location of the burial from the broadcast I would have thought he would have added it. With the burials info given by TEW he could but might be buried there. Someone knew the burial location at the time. The paperwork for his trial would have had to be spot on? As I said in an earlier post, ID at a later date was probably impossible.

[TEW]

If he was recovered from a ' lost' grave without a marker it would not have been possible to ID him. I imagine that he would have been stripped of all army ID. Uniform, pay book. Id disc and any regimental badges.

In some cases the 1920 GRU did a better job of IDing men by finding numbered objects that were missed 4 years earlier. It's been stated that in death his burial would be carried out with reverence and equality to others. No disrespect from his peers. The tight t shirt may probably means buried without tunic but otherwise as per others, excepted that while incarcerated personal belongings, belt, braces, shoelaces would be absent. Therefore, no objects at burial. A lost grave seems more likely than occupying one marked to UBS or another name. IE. One if the rows extends beyond its presently planned out limit. No marker or grave evident circa 1920 therefore no need or problem arose for GRU to investigate further? Numbering system is a 1920 event. Just a few thoughts.

TEW

[johnboy]

Am I understanding this right. Throughout the war men were buried there with probably just a marker. Sometime after the war bodies there were being exhumed and reburied. Was this when todays layout of rows was done or are there bodies in their original graves?

[TEW]

Johnboy,

I'm not certain of that either. Certainly where the interred were causing problems in terms of turning up elsewhere or not existing on other records there would be exhumations to try to sort that out. Different cemeteries must have been treated differently, some were heavily shelled therefore graves, bodies and markers totally destroyed. Carnoy seems to have avoided that sort of problem but there seems to have been recording issues wth the mis-identified.

There is a photo of a Chaplain attending a grave at Carnoy in the summer of 1916, different sorts of marker in evidence, link somewhere in thread or just google it. This, and other photos show graves nicely laid out in rows but I'm wondering if those photos would match up with today's plan, shame names can't be made out in older photos.

It seems the modern 'row/grave' numbering system is a post-war constraint wth slightly later post-war adaptions, certainly to grave numbers.

What is missing is all the reports, schedules that the GRUs were working from which they updated cancelling the previous reports etc. We now only have access to the final version.

I may be wrong but I can't see 100% exhumations in cemeteries to sort out everything out to be 100% correct.

Many cemeteries were located next to CCSs or hospitals, the GRUs would have had access to all the admin and discharge records (now 5% in Mh106) to check for discharged 'dead' with date. Carnoy had a hospital with military patients but I can't find any refs. to it as a military hospital. Doesn't apply to OP's question I know.

TEW

[TEW]

Not sure if direct linking is acceptable but we'll see. Both of Carnoy, 1st one captioned as July 1916.

TEW

[20th Division]

Great work by so many --really appreciated. I hope to go to Carnoy Cemetery on the centenary, October 18th but this time armed with more personal knowledge of the circumstances and a great sense of place, thanks to all that is being discussed and researched on The Forum. Before this Harry was just a number and simply "---EXECUTED IN CARNOY".

This week I intend following up on the some of the facts that have come to light via your combined expertise. I shall follow up "MYRTLES" i.d. of the most likely church he attended, to establish the Vicar and contact the present incumbent to see if the letter Harry sent to his widow survives. I shall be contacting the CWGC for any other info they have about burials in and around Carnoy.I shall contact the IWM for a copy of the broadcast made by Gertrude. Responses may take some time but I will post this on The Forum the minute I get any leads. There still appears a bit more information being researched before we can summarise the facts to date. My best wishes. Dave.

[Myrtle]

The London Metropolitan Archive has the Christ Church collection - 1881 to 1941

[20th Division]

Thanks again Myrtle, great detective work . I will follow up. Regards. Dave

[20th Division]

Requests for copies of the broadcast tapes of interviews with Gertrude Farr are now with the IWM. They are to investigate existence /availability of any fuller un-edited versions, including any that may be copyrighted by other companies e.g. Blakeway Associates. I have given them reference numbers kindly hunted out by TEW and others but told them this might not be a complete one.

Requests for any official or unofficial additional information about the initial and/or final resting place of harry Farr is now with the CWGC. I asked them too if they have any knowledge of "another cemetery" in Carnoy/Minden post area.

Myrtle is kindly on-the-case with location of Harry's parish and any archival record or copy of the letter he sent before execution to his Priest/Vicar.

Thanks for all the info leading to this. I know there is still some beavering still going on and hopefully it will come together soon to take us a step nearer.

As soon as I get any relevant info I will post it on The Forum. Dave.

[keithmroberts]

The nearest cemeteries that I can see in the White Cross Touring Atlas are

MONTAY-NEUVILLY ROAD CEMETERY, MONTAY which still exists

and LA COTE MILITARY CEMETERY, MARICOURT which was later cleared and the bodies moved to the Peronne Road Military Cemetery, Maricourt.

excuse the pasted fonts - in a hurry today

Keith

[TEW]

Under Peronee Road Cemetery, the CWGC say for concentrations, CARNOY COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION, in which 36 French soldiers and one from the United Kingdom were buried in March 1918.

I looked through the Peronne Road concentration reports and found 3 from near Carnoy Cemetery, NB Reeves is stated to have been originally buried in Carnoy 'Extension'. I'm going by grid references supplied by GRUs and GRRFs. Whether Nos, 2&3 were buried across the road in another cemetery I can't say. I have reason to believe that Rows A, B and C at Carnoy were German creations dating to after March 1918. I had wondered if these rows are what is meant by the 'extension'. The first burial recorded with CWGC is in Row D.

1. 82957 Sapper Pryde 174th RE. Died 2/8/15. Original location A.13.d.3.1. Alternative numbers 82597 82591
   
2. 6733 Samuel James, 3rd Coldstream Guards DOW 13/11/16. Original location A.13.d.5.8. Alternative number 6773. [Memorial Plot, no bodies found]
   
3. 77660 G Reeve RFA. Died 25/3/1918. Original location, isolated grave Carnoy communal cemetery extension A.13.d.5.8

Grrf reports for Carnoy give the map ref for the cemetery as A.13.d.5.6.

On the attached map the men above are marked out by number, the cemetery and Grrf map ref. are marked with red *.

The red + sign is the location of the 2/1 London Field Ambulance in Oct 1916, location also used November 1916 by 24th FA

XIV corps MDS was also located was also located nearby.

I hadn't realised how 'hot' Carnoy was circa late summer 1915. When 5th Division took over the area from the French in Late July 1915 the original cemetery was more or less on the 3rd line of defence (see map), also note communication trenches in the area of the cemetery . That cemetery would have been exposed and not usable for burials. The present cemetery lies behind the village and was sheltered from view.

The 5th Division diaries do mention Bn. HQs being 'in shelters, Carnoy Village' but Carnoy was being shelled and sniped at during this early period. The closest first aid post was a Collecting Stn, at Bronfay Farm. No FAs operated nearer to Carnoy than this when the present cemetery started to be used.

By the end of October, they had started to set up RAPs around Carnoy.

The first 50 burials at Carnoy are all 5th Division men. Except my No. 1 above who was with 174th Tunneling Coy RE who may have been the first man buried in the present cemetery area before it started to be used for the main cemetery. These 50, and maybe the next 50 were probably buried by their own men under cover of darkness in between enemy shelling.

TEW

[20th Division]

I have had replies back from both IWM and CWGC. thus:-

IWM. ( re copies of broadcast interviews with Gertrude FARR on BBC Radio). The BBC tapes are copyrighted and the IWM do not seem to hold out much hope that the BBC will allow copies to be sold. I will try my luck of course ( I thought the BBC, being "ours", would have encouraged access to previous broadcast material for research purposes!! ??). Any Pals out there had experience of getting this sort of thing from the BBC? I will, however, be allowed to listen to them if I book an appointment at the IWM. The IWM were very helpful on this matter. I will book an appointment and travel down to London sometime in the near future. If anything not already reported transpires, I will of course post it on the forum.

CWGC.( re. any official/unofficial info' re the site of Harry Farr's burial and/or RE burial). The CWGC repeated what I had previously informed them about what we know already i.e. that he is remembered at Thiepval Memorial and has no known grave, probably as a result of it being disturbed by later shellfire---and suggested that I submit " A CASE FOR IDENTIFYING HIS PLACE OF BURIAL". ----"---using clear and convincing evidence supported by official documentary sources -------internet research will only be accepted if supplied by a recognised authority such as the CWGC, National Archives etc." enclosing a guidance sheet. Now, I am not naturally a pessimist but am open to advice on whether the CWGC/ Ministry of Defence ( the adjudicating body apparently on any submission)--can do anymore than the research already in hand by some very knowledgeable Forum Pals??????? Any advice on pursuing this further? Thanks. Dave.