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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Pt. Harry Farr. shot at dawn, Carnoy, Oct. 18th. 1916


20th Division

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Thanks for the explanations about the return of a SAD thread. I too remember those heated discussions.

 

Near my house in France is a village called Yvrench. A Private Skilton was executed there. It was 25 miles from the front line and yet the body still has no known grave.

 

Being away from the front does not guarantee a grave, though I suspect he is probably in an unmarked grave in the village cemetery.

 

John

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The rights and wrongs have been an issue since before I became seriously interested in the Great War over 30 years ago. Since reason flew out the window every time the topic cropped up, and opinions became totally entrenched on both sides and at times highly unpleasant and political with both kinds of Ps it has seemed to me an issue about which any opinion will be considered objectionable. The men were charged, found guilty, some erroneously, and have now been pardoned. We need to move on.

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It is now 10 years since those heated discussions took place on this subject on this Forum.  It is informative to compare some of the things that were being said then with what has happened since.  Contrary to the expectations of many, pardons did not open the floodgates on compensation claims made by money-hungry SAD descendants against HMG, nor have their been demands to re-open every court-martial decision made during WW1.  Relatives wanted recognition that a wrong had been done and something in the way of an apology.  Pardons gave them both.

 

I am never sure what 'need to move on' actually means.  When uttered by politicians it is saying 'we have made a bad mistake, but let's forget about it as quickly as possible.'  That will not happen with SAD who, as usual will be represented this year at The Cenotaph.  One compelling reason for continued interest in the subject is that it begs a question: why did the armies of all nations involved in WW1 find it necessary to shoot their own members in such large and varying numbers?  To answer that it is necessary to look at the armies not just as fighting forces, but as social, cultural, legal and political organisations.  For many that is not a comfortable experience.  SAD will continue to interest and involve many.

 

10 years on perhaps it is an appropriate time to remember John Hipkin, the inspiration and driving force behind SAD, who died a few weeks ago.  Whatever the rights and wrongs of pardons, the scale of his achievement should not be underestimated.  He took on the British military and legal establishment, initially on his own - and won.  He did it without any formal organisation, very little money and not a bit of IT.  Not bad for a retired English teacher from Wallsend.  He never received any official recognition, but there are many - including the family of Harry Farr - who are very, very grateful to him.  RIP.

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On 31/08/2016 at 17:26, Chris_Baker said:

and the legal threat arose in connection with discussion regarding third parties who were connected to the campaign but who were not members of the forum at the time.

Chris (and others) may recall that I was one of those discussing "third parties". I fully appreciate Chris' decision to stop discussion of the subject and, also, to ban at least one GWF contributor prominent in the SAD campaign. I also appreciate that it was Chris who was being threatened by legal action for defamation - actually by the contributor banned, not the person I had made statements about. At the time and since (I still have the relevent screenshots,,etc), I stand by those remarks and, had it been me who was being threatened, I would have gladly called the bluff of the banned contriibutor and, if necessary, seen the alleged aggrieved party in court - a defence against a claim of defamation is that the remarks are factual and "fair comment". Of course, it would never have got anywhere near that - the banned contributor simply used the threats to successfuly silence debate here and prevent further discussion about the scurrilous activities of one of his cronies.

Edited by John_Hartley
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"I am never sure what 'need to move on' actually means.  When uttered by politicians it is saying 'we have made a bad mistake, but let's forget about it as quickly as possible."

 

How true  - in every way that anyone on any side of the debate may wish.

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One thing I personally found having been really interested in the subject is how emotive the subject can be and how ill informed people can be whilst holding strident views.

 

Lazy sensationalist journalism seems common, the layperson reading pieces could be forgiven for thinking the vast majority of executions were for cowardice.

 

Whenever anyone new raises the subject on here, I recommend that as well as reading "Shot at Dawn", they should also read "Blindfold and Alone" for balance.

One of the most interesting pieces on the subject for me is the statement included as an appendix to the latter book made to Parliament by Dr John Reid giving his reasons for not granting a blanket pardon.

 

Sam

 

 

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As a topic it had everything. For starters emotion, rudeness, arrogance, ignorance, poor history, misunderstanding, lack of perspective and partisanship. Bit like the war itself really.

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This particular topic/thread was started as, and remained until recently, a hunt for the last resting place of a man. Unusual circumstances perhaps, but still in essence the search for a lost relative. It would seem a bit of a shame if the topic were to lose that focus.

 

Regards

Chris

Edited by clk
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14 hours ago, clk said:

This particular topic/thread was started as, and remained until recently, a hunt for the last resting place of a man. Unusual circumstances perhaps, but still in essence the search for a lost relative. It would seem a bit of a shame if the topic were to lose that focus.

 

Regards

Chris

 

I agree with that.  But Harry Farr was not just another soldier - his was the case which brought the whole SAD facade tumbling down.

 

Content deleted here   KMR

 

 More important is to learn from it.  In particular, don't personalise arguments; always use the third person and write in the past tense.  And don't assume that everyone who disagrees with you is either a fool or a knave.

 

That's me finished in this thread - see you all in another topic.

Edited by keithmroberts
Reference to historic issues wihtin GWF
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I have intervened to remove part of one post, and to remove a reply. Please can we stick to to the topic without commenting on topics that were removed from the GWF years ago. 

 

 

Keith Roberts

 

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4 hours ago, keithmroberts said:

I have intervened to remove part of one post, and to remove a reply. Please can we stick to to the topic without commenting on topics that were removed from the GWF years ago. 

 

 

Keith Roberts

 

Keith,

 

That's fine - but apply that logic uniformly and fairly.  Have a look at John Hartley' post #254.  If that is not raking over old coals, then I don't know what is.  If you are not going to do that, then please allow a reply.  Take it all out, or let it all stand.

 

You seem to approve the section on learning - and that is good, though it makes little sense when taken out of context.  One of the reasons why the events of 2006 proved so bitter and long-lasting was a feeling that 'moderation' was not being fairly applied.  So I think that there is something there for moderators too.

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Enough. I have considered the posts, made changes and they are I consider sufficient. I did consider removing a swathe of posts, but many more recent members have been unaware that there was such  a heated debate and that Chris was obliged to remove various topics and forbid discussion. The heat above shows that strong feelings still exist. Back to the original discussions please. 

No more discussion regarding the past  arguments within the GWF. 

 

Any posts with such comment will be deleted without explanation.

 

Keith Roberts

GWF Team

 

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  • 1 month later...

I have been out of the country and away from my computer since my last posting on this subject. I have read with interest the latest comments. I feel I can only repeat that my original objective was to try to locate Harry Farr's final resting place and /or any details of his final hours. Many knowledgeable people on this forum have worked very hard to help towards this end and their efforts have been hugely appreciated and whilst his final resting place has not been identified with certainty, a more informed guess can now be made. The experts' discussions have unearthed the names of some of those people who were involved directly with his execution and its immediate aftermath.This information was not known before- thus making Harry's sad and final hours a hundred years ago a bit easier to imagine. Thank you all for your contributions. I have listened to the taped copies of the interviews with Harry Farr's family and they don't appear to give any more information than that which was reported at the time the pardon's were given. I will be going through them again soon to be 100% sure. I hope this thread has not entirely finished as more information could still be out there waiting to fill in the gaps. Again--THANK YOU. Dave.

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  • 1 year later...

Have removed post. Realised it was in the wrong thread.

 

 

Edited by Gunner Bailey
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  • 2 weeks later...

Not sure if this has been noted elsewhere in this thread... Captain Andrew Woodroffe Anderson of the 130th (St John) Field Ambulance was not the right man. On 18th October 1916 the 130th were at Proven near Poperinghe.

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