Pt. Harry Farr. shot at dawn, Carnoy, Oct. 18th. 1916

[TEW]

Seems a long way back to have ADMS HQ, about 3 miles as the crow flies, wet, rainy, muddy day.

Zero Hour for 6th Div attack 18/10/16 was 3.40am

A few extracts from 6th Div. FAs for 18th Oct

16th FA
14/10/16. Moved from Dublin Post to S.28 central between Bernafy Woods and Montaban.

17th FA
14/10/16. Moved from Dublin Post to Bernafay Wood W[est?]

18th FA
14/10/16. Moved from Dublin Post to Opposite Bernafy Wood. Work on 14 Corps rest area Dive Copse. 18FA HQ at Dive Copse.

Bernafy Wood formerly held by 20th Div medics as an ADS in NW corner.

RAMC Ops Order 24. 7/10/16 Medical Arrangements
Reports to ADMS at Minden Post F.18.c.2.2 after 9pm of 9th inst.

RAMC Ops Order 28. 17/10/1916
Zero hour (3.40am) on 18th Oct. 71st Inf. Bde (6th Div) objectives square N.21 Mild Trench.
3. Reports to ADMS Minden Post

RAMC Ops Order 29. 18/10/1916
ADMS at Minden Post will close at 9am on 20th Oct

FAs relieved night of 19th-20th Oct

Can't see anything that suggests Minden Post was being used as anything other than ADMS HQ, no indication of medical services there which seems odd.

TEW

[TEW]

Found some of these unit positions in 6 Div Adj & QM diaries, they show that sometimes the various HQs were at combined locations and sometimes not.

However, I can say that for 6th Div on 18/10/16:

ADMS had their HQ at Minden Post

ADVS had their HQ at Minden Post

Commander Royal Artillery had HQ at Minden Post

6th Div Signals had their HQ at Minden Post

1/1st Field Coy RE sent No. 1 section to Minden Post on 7th Oct to 'work on Divisional HQ'

DADOS HQ in Happy Valley

Minden Post was taken over by 20th Div and used for their various HQs, if their APM was based there the I'd say the 6th APM was there earlier

TEW

[gwentpal]

"Hope you can help please. I am still researching whereabouts in CARNOY Pt Harry Farr was executed, at dawn on 18th Oct 1916. My daughter-in-law is Harry Farr's Gt Gt Niece. So far all I know is that he has no known grave, he is commemorated on the Thiepval monument, he was executed in Carnoy and the M.O. who certified his death was Capt. A. Anderson medical officer in charge 6th Divisional ammunition column."

Hi All,

I don't know if its the same Medical Officer but i was just looking at a photo of the 130th Field Ambulance (38th Div) personnel and there is a Captain A W Anderson in the line up, the photo is dated December 1915.

Cheers gwentpal

[clk]

Hi,

I saw the positions report of 29th October (immediately after they left the area) which is one of the reasons I thought about the Div. HQ/APM proximity issue - frustrating though nothing similar for when they were in area! Using just the search term "Minden" or "Caftet" for diaries on Ancestry shows that a number of units passed through there, or were nearby - looking at their diaries they generally seem to have recorded "bivouacked", but there are also a number of HQ entries which seem slightly more permanent. I hadn't found the reference "1/1st Field Coy RE sent No. 1 section to Minden Post on 7th Oct to 'work on Divisional HQ' " which is interesting as it might imply that along with the name "Post" it was (in terms of facilities) something more permanent than just a "hole in the ground" (though utter speculation on my part). Before the front advanced, there is also a map in the ADMS 20th Div. diary from August 1916 that indicates that an ADS was based there.

As a long shot, having been executed "at Carnoy", and (a big) if he were buried in the military cemetery there, I wonder if it might be worth looking at the cemetery plan, cross referencing plots against dates of deaths (excluding any concentrations) to see if there is logical plan of how it was filled by date, then looking at where the "unknowns" are.

Unfortunately, I still think that there isn't enough evidence to reasonably answer the original OP.

Regards

Chris

[seaforths]

Map shown from the OH for 1st July 1916 and I've annotated approximately the location of the cemetery. It is opposite another road not shown on this map. It does indicate the unit at Caftet at this time and as you say Chris, possible that location was developed with more permanent structures.

The choice of Anderson as MO attending seems logical given the circumstances. All RAMC officers would be required during battle,to be at their stations at the Dressing Stations and MOs of infantry and active artillery would not be able to be spared. It would also seem logical that Anderson would have to be briefed on his task before the event - either the day/night before or the morning itself which might require his presence at his HQ.

[TEW]

There were more position reports for July which showed almost daily changes, sometimes the various HQs were in same place and then spread here and there.

I thought the 1/1 RE reference suggested they were turning Minden Post into a group HQ, expanding, strengthening etc.

With at least 4 HQs at Minden and possibly rear General Staff HQ as well it would seem likely to be the location for the APM, perhaps they had a rear and forward HQ. Forward tends to mean way up in square N.21 etc.

I tried the same with ancestry 'locations' using Minden as keyword. I recall last week looking at diaries and seeing variant spellings for Minden as the location. Can't seem to replicate that now but there is a map on the forum that calls it Minston Post.

I had also thought about using a cemetery plan to mark out chronological sequence and plotting the unknowns but I'm not sure I fully understand the extent of the IWGC work in Aug 1920. If they re-identified men that means they were exhuming? Were men buried in 1915/16 buried in the plot they are now and not moved. The sequence of areas and grave numbers may be a 1920 re-laying of the cemetery. They seem to have been working from reports, schedules etc so had more information that we do.

I have all the GRRF sheets which makes life easier, should you want that challenge! Still can't square up how a man buried in 1916 with a recorded name, number, regiment and date of death can then be re-identified in 1920 as a completely different man especially when there seems to be no evidence for the original name, number anywhere in the army.

Then there's the identified men/man who were then found buried elsewhere and were crossed out and annotated UBS.

Germans exhumed and removed elsewhere.

I agree about the probability of settling the question in the OP.

Also noted in one diary that wounded were in Carnoy Hospital which I can find no other reference to, cemeteries and CCS etc go hand in hand.

Using Minden Post to hold a man pre-execution seems to have a particular irony given it's former use.

I'm putting Anderson's and Simey's records on my 'to do' list for next visit to TNA, not holding my breath but you never know.

TEW

[clk]

... Where were H.Q. Ist. West Yorkshire's in Oct 1916? ...

On the 18th they were (west of Guillemont) in Trones Wood - about 4 miles north east of Carnoy. They moved there on the 13th, and left on the 19th.

Regards

Chris

[seaforths]

TEW I will try to help with regard grrf but two things need to happen first. I need to complete other projects and then work out how to download the damned things. With regard to the latter, I have a crib sheet to follow. Your valiant lone effort is appreciated

Carnoy was in some state even before 1916 and goodness knows what it was like by the end of the war:

Sources for the above:

CEMETERY 1
http://barronmaps.com/john-mccraes-flanders-fields-1921-published-william-e-rudge-illustrated-ernest-clegg-part-3/

VILLAGE ENTRANCE 2
http://www.delcampe.net/page/item/id,359055359,var,GUERRE-14-18--CARNOY--SOMME--ENTREE-DU-VILLAGE,language,E.html

Sources for the above:

VILLAGE 3
http://www.delcampe.net/page/item/id,372516698,var,80-CARNOY-VUE-GENERALE-DE-L-AUTRE-LES-TRANCHEES-ALLEMANDES-CACHET-58-REG-TERRITORIAL-D-INFANTERIE-5-BATAILLON,language,E.html

VILLAGE INTERIOR 4
http://www.delcampe.net/page/item/id,226066454,var,somme--ref-A-619-carnoy--interieur-du-village--guerre-1914-18--carte-bon-etat-,language,E.html

Sources for the above:

BOMBARDED HOUSE 5
http://www.delcampe.net/page/item/id,226596076,var,somme--ref-A501--carnoy--maisons-bombardees--guerre-1914-18--carte-bon-etat-,language,E.html

DESTRUCTION IN VILLAGE 6
http://www.delcampe.net/page/item/id,364537457,var,17165--CARNOY--GUERRE-1914-DESTRUCTION-DU-VILLAGE-DE,language,E.html

ASPECT OF THE TOWN 7
http://www.delcampe.net/page/item/id,286765793,var,dept-div--somme--ref-V853--carnoy--aspect-du-pays--aspect-of-the-town--la-grande-guerre---carte-bon-etat,language,E.html

[johnboy]

The Court Martial is reported on one site as being at Ville sur Ancre. Some way from Carnoy. Maybe someone can find a trench map for the area? It may show an HQ and perhaps a cemetery?

Would he have been stripped of his uniform id etc before being shot?

[Ron Clifton]

Would he have been stripped of his uniform id etc before being shot?

I think not, though his jacket may have been removed, to facilitate the placing of the target over his heart. In death he should have been treated in exactly the same way as those dying from any other cause.

[TEW]

TEW I will try to help with regard grrf but two things need to happen first. I need to complete other projects and then work out how to download the damned things. With regard to the latter, I have a crib sheet to follow. Your valiant lone effort is appreciated

I could put mine on dropbox and PM a link, online instructions may have been accurate in the past but I think firefox has now improved and some of the stages were not necessary. Nor did it explain that downlaodthemall is a firefox plug -in that needs finding and installing.

TEW

[seaforths]

The Court Martial is reported on one site as being at Ville sur Ancre. Some way from Carnoy. Maybe someone can find a trench map for the area? It may show an HQ and perhaps a cemetery?

Would he have been stripped of his uniform id etc before being shot?

No, but as I mentioned in a previous post, they were deliberately put into tight fitting shirts so that the shirt/target didn't move or flutter about in any breeze that might be present.

I cannot see him being taken to Ville sur Ancre after being executed in Carnoy. It is more likely that he was returned to the proximity of his unit and the wait to see if his sentence was commuted. When the confirmation was received and not commutation, the execution would then be carried out...just conjecture and logic.

I could put mine on dropbox and PM a link, online instructions may have been accurate in the past but I think firefox has now improved and some of the stages were not necessary. Nor did it explain that downlaodthemall is a firefox plug -in that needs finding and installing.

TEW

Well we can give it whirl - don't have Firefox but not a show-stopper as I would have had to have downloaded it anyway.

[johnboy]

Seaforths

Re the tight fitting shirt. If the body was found /recovered if a marker had been lost would it have been possible to identify him?

It could be possible that he was tried, held at and shot at Ville sur Ancre. It would seem that this was a 'safe' place. If his sentance had been commuted would he have been taken to the same place to hear this or would he have been told by his Commanding Officer?

[seaforths]

Seaforths

Re the tight fitting shirt. If the body was found /recovered if a marker had been lost would it have been possible to identify him?

It could be possible that he was tried, held at and shot at Ville sur Ancre. It would seem that this was a 'safe' place. If his sentance had been commuted would he have been taken to the same place to hear this or would he have been told by his Commanding Officer?

The evidence from the death certificate states Carnoy. If the cemetery at Carnoy had been damaged and bodies damaged, exposed and reburied. It is possible that hurried reburials might account for some of the problems that TEW is hitting with known men being changed to UBS. There would likely be little left for any identification if damage was severe. Once the body had deteriorated to the skeletal state, it would not be discernable whether a shirt had previously been tight fitting for the wearer.

[roughdiamond]

Thanks Sam. Can you give a link to the figures?

Johnboy

while pottering about, I found this page https://www.geni.com/projects/World-War-One-Shot-at-Dawn/27979 by no means complete, it does give most burial/commemoration locations, there are exceptions e.g.

Abigail, John Henry - No reference given but there are only 2 burials in that cemetery.

Ashton, Harry - No reference given but CWGC has it as C.487

Benham, William - no reference given, but there are only 4 burials including "Gleadow, George" also SAD

I intend to go through it and fill the blanks for my own curiosity.

Sam

[johnboy]

Thanks again Sam.

From the link this is an interesting bit

Those condemned to death usually had their sentences confirmed by Field Marshal Sir Douglas Haig on the evening following their court-martial. A chaplain spent the night in the cell with the condemned man and execution took place the following dawn.

So it looks like a man found guilty would be held until the following morning?

[Ron Clifton]

I don't think that it would be as quick as that. The sentence had to carry recommendations from brigade, divisional, corps and army commanders before it reached the C-in-C and evidence in other cases suggests that this was not a perfunctory or automatic exercise at each stage - around 90% of death sentences were commuted.

Whilst it would be kindness to the condemned man not to be kept in uncertainty for too long, it must be remembered that in civilian life those condemned to death normally waited for at least 21 days before they were executed.

Ron

[roughdiamond]

Thanks again Sam.

From the link this is an interesting bit

Those condemned to death usually had their sentences confirmed by Field Marshal Sir Douglas Haig on the evening following their court-martial. A chaplain spent the night in the cell with the condemned man and execution took place the following dawn.

So it looks like a man found guilty would be held until the following morning?

The phrase "sensationalist codswallop" immediately springs to mind on that quote, as the thread is about Harry Farr, let's look at his example, trial date was 2nd October 1916, as you will see in the link, CO 18th Bde agreed 3rd, CO 6th Div recommended it 4th, CO 14th Corps recommended 6th, CO 4th Army recommended 11th and Haig confirmed sentence 14th October 1916 and he was executed 18th October 1916 https://blindfoldandalone.wordpress.com/the-prosecuted/surnames-e-f/farr-private-harry-8871-1west-yorkshire-regiment/ every FGCM sentence had to pass through the same chain of command before it got to Haig.

You'll probably find holding the FGCM was approved at Div level hence their speed at confirming the sentence by Bde and Div, you'll notice a Lt Col from an infantry Regt was the President, not something authorised without higher authority.

Sam

[seaforths]

Sorry johnboy, I cannot find anything in that link that states their sentence was confirmed in the evening following the CM and they wee executed the next morning. I did see this

'A death sentence had to be passed unanimously, and confirmed in writing by various generals as the verdict passed up the chain of command...However, the courts were expicitly intended to be "speedy"'

Also, while I think of it, I have seen files in Divisional or Brigade War Diaries where officers have been absented from one Brigade to attend a Court Martial at another Brigade within the Division. Presumably this was how they addressed the issue of ensuring those being on the panel were unlikely to be familiar with the man on trial. It also indicates that the CM may well have happened at his Bde. HQ.

[johnboy]

Third paragraph

[roughdiamond]

Third paragraph

Third paragraph of what johnboy?

Sam

[johnboy]

From the link that you gave in your post #90 which Seaforths is querying.

[seaforths]

From the link that you gave in your post #90 which Seaforths is querying.

Ohhhh now I understand why I can't see it - I was querying the post you made with the link which is the same one that Sam commented on

Thanks again Sam.

From the link this is an interesting bit

Those condemned to death usually had their sentences confirmed by Field Marshal Sir Douglas Haig on the evening following their court-martial. A chaplain spent the night in the cell with the condemned man and execution took place the following dawn.

So it looks like a man found guilty would be held until the following morning?

This is where I was looking for the information. It really doesn't matter whose link said what, they were not executed the day after the trial at all. Looking at the distance between Carnoy and Ville sur Ancre - about 14 km via modern road, I cannot see that they would take him back there to bury him either.

[johnboy]

If the CM was held at Ville sur Ancre how likely would it be that he was held there until his death?

[seaforths]

I don't think it was likely at all. I believe he would have been sent back closer to the vicinity of his unit to await the outcome. I doubt very much that they would have held him at Ville sur Ancre for him to find out he was to be executed and then remove him to Carnoy to carry out the sentence. Once the outcome or verdict was known, the execution usually followed the next morning. The probability of them holding him at Ville sur Ancre and then moving him hastily to Carnoy to be executed the following morning would be slim to non-existent. If they had been holding him at Ville sur Ancre post CM, until the outcome was known, it is likely they would have executed Harry there but they didn't. That they executed Harry at Carnoy is a strong indication he was taken to Ville sur Ancre for the CM (possibly from Carnoy) and following the CM proceedings, evidence etc. he was then taken (or returned) to Carnoy.