seaforths Posted 4 May , 2016 Share Posted 4 May , 2016 Yes, but if they are web sources, they might be a mis-informed shortening of "parish priest" or "minister". We don't know whether the chaplain might have got the information from Harry himself, or whether he wrote on his own initiative to the vicar of the nearest C of E church. C of E clergy names and addresses were (and are) readily ascertainable from Crockford's Clerical Directory, which I imagine was fairly readily available to Army chaplains. In addition, it is often said that the C of E "is the only institution which exists for the benefit of non-members" so it might have been regarded as the default first option where pastoral care of a man's family was involved. Ron Sorry Ron, didn't see your post before I posted. I don't seem to get that little dit that pops up and says someone has replied - I get it on the PC but not the iPad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 4 May , 2016 Share Posted 4 May , 2016 I think I remember seeing a census record showing him living at some time within the parish of Christ Church. I will try and check later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 4 May , 2016 Share Posted 4 May , 2016 I would think that Harry gave the Vicar's name to the Chaplain. As to the blindfold, it has been suggested in this thread that the blindfold is as much to protect the men in the firing squad from looking into the man's eyes. I checked the London Marriages, parish records and failed to find the Farr/ Young marriage. As the GRO gives 1a Kensington they would be listed in the former record set IF they married in a C of E church. Either it's a registry office or a non C of E. Web sources! Say he was a scaffolder from Kensington, Not sure what time frame that refers to but with marriage there in 1913 and Gertrude there on Electoral Rolls 1919 - 1920. Marriage certificate would clarify some of this, but niggles that Gertrude's 'Vicar' was involved if they didn't marry in Church, had either been married before,nor as was the way in the day still married to someone else. Not sure when Gertrude 'left her lodgings', perhaps Ervan Rd, was the later address, so possibly moved within Kensington but different parishes. There maybe more info available via London Metropolitan Archives but I'll have to double check a few things. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 4 May , 2016 Share Posted 4 May , 2016 Seems Harry was baptised at St Augustine's, Kilburn which is an Anglican Church or Anglo/Catholic according to one source. Wife Gertrude Baptised in Notting Hill, Middlesex C of E. Daughter Gertrude birth registered 4th Qtr 1913, Kensington 1a (as per marriage a little earlier). If she was baptised C of E then her baptism would be held at London Metropolitan Archives, ancestry go up to 1906. One would think that not having a church marriage then the daughter's baptism should ID the 'Vicar'. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 4 May , 2016 Share Posted 4 May , 2016 CWGC give his wifes address as Church Road Hampstead. The road may now have disappeared but a candidate would be Church Road Highgate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 4 May , 2016 Share Posted 4 May , 2016 Seems Harry was baptised at St Augustine's, Kilburn which is an Anglican Church or Anglo/Catholic according to one source. Wife Gertrude Baptised in Notting Hill, Middlesex C of E. Daughter Gertrude birth registered 4th Qtr 1913, Kensington 1a (as per marriage a little earlier). If she was baptised C of E then her baptism would be held at London Metropolitan Archives, ancestry go up to 1906. One would think that not having a church marriage then the daughter's baptism should ID the 'Vicar'. TEW I can't see any baptism records on Ancestry. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 4 May , 2016 Share Posted 4 May , 2016 Craig Hope link works http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1558 TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 4 May , 2016 Share Posted 4 May , 2016 Craig Hope link works http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1558 TEW It goes to the main search page - did you mange to find Gertrude jnrs record ? Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforths Posted 4 May , 2016 Share Posted 4 May , 2016 Page 2, post no. 39 on this thread, non-conformist - they may have switched sides. After 6 months the money stopped coming and she was evicted. She had clearly received the WO letter by that time and probably the Padre's letter too. I don't know how weddings were conducted and possibly they were married in their church and an entry in the church register might confim that (if we knew which church it was) they may then have had to officially register their marriage after the ceremony had taken place in order to get an official marriage certificate. Some baptisms were swift, the woman couldn't attend church until she had been 'churched' herself which, if I remember rightly, happened at the baptism - a reason why they would be swift. If indeed non-conformist, they may have had different attitudes to allowing women into the church after they had given birth and the baptism may have occurred some time later and a 'churching' of the woman not considered necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 4 May , 2016 Share Posted 4 May , 2016 Craig, Link goes to search page for London parish baptisms up to 1906. Won't have Gertrude Jnrs. which will be at LMA if it's C of E but if as Seaforths says Gertrude Snr. moved out within 6 months then the address I had for 1919-1920 could put her in different Kensington parishes for 1916 and 1919/20. No experience of non-conformist baptism records, perhaps LMA have those as well. The mixed denomination may explain a registry office marriage or one of them 'changed sides'. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 4 May , 2016 Share Posted 4 May , 2016 Sorry, Anglican is C of E. Harry's parents were from B'ham and Oxon. Harry, parents and siblings were in Wornington Rd, Kensington which is a stone's throw from Gertrude's 1919 address. Also, Johnboy mentioned Christchurch which is a chapel of ease to St Mary Abbot's and not far from either address. All these address are in St Mary Abbot's parish, the bad news is that St Mary Abbot's have only released early parish records and retain the later ones themselves. No idea how they would be accessed. Seems that Harry and siblings were baptised C of E. Nothing really showing a non-conformist link other than the Anglo/Catholic mention on a website which I think is a contradiction. Perhaps his parents or one of them were Non-conformist but conformed later in life. Harry had siblings in service during the war. One at least has service record. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 4 May , 2016 Share Posted 4 May , 2016 Service records available for: Sydney Victor Farr 185171 Edward Farr 4862 called up June 1916 Edward's gives NOK Father at 9 Ervan Rd, Kensington which means Gertrude moved in with parents in law. If denomination is given on his sheet I can't read it, blotchy but maybe an 'O' Interesting that Edward was transferred by WO telegram to No. 2 Depot Woolwich 21/12/16 Sydney attested 1919 and..... well, have a look. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 4 May , 2016 Share Posted 4 May , 2016 Transcribing part of one page in Edward's service record, I think that it reads: Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 4 May , 2016 Share Posted 4 May , 2016 I thought later that the 'O' I saw on ancestry record is most likely a C, as in C of E. Both together indicate C of E. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 4 May , 2016 Share Posted 4 May , 2016 Anglo-Catholic also means C of E, but with ceremonial leanings towards Roman practices - sometimes referred to as "bells and smells". St Augustine's, Kilburn is indeed C of E. These days it is sometimes used to host concerts in the Proms season, where the Albert Hall might be less suitable. I'm not sure if it was the case in the early 20th century, as it was in parts of the 19th, that EVERY wedding in England had to be performed either by a clergyman of the Established Church (the C of E) or by an.authorised registrar of marriages, if it was to be recognised as legal. Clergy of other denominations could perform weddings according to the rites of their own denomination, but required the attendance of a registrar, or a separate "civil wedding", to qualify for the various protections and safeguards of a legal marriage. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 4 May , 2016 Admin Share Posted 4 May , 2016 Coming a little late but referring to post 129, in this earlier thread I transcribed from the Bickersteth Diaries (together with other accounts) the description of an execution where Julian Bickersteth was the padre. You will note the walk, or "the weird little procession through silent streets" from the holding 'cell' or more accurately, "a little back room on the second storey of a semi detached villa in the village" was about 300 yards. Bickersteth had also supervised the digging of the grave the previous day and after the execution the body 'was taken by motor ambulance to the nearest cemetery where I had a burial party waiting, and we gave his body Christian Burial'. Not sure if this adds anything other than confirming in this instance the walk to the execution spot, was very short. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 4 May , 2016 Share Posted 4 May , 2016 Harry Farr lived on Wornington Road in 1911. At the same time Gertrude appears to have been living in St Charle's Square, as a General Servant for a female painter and her mother from Ireland. As already mentioned, Harry's brothers' Service Papers mention that they were Church of England. The nearest Cof E Church to Wornington Road and St Ervan's Road was Christchurch that stood on Wornington Road. It was pulled down after WW2. It was a church linked with the larger St Michael and All Angels Church on Ladbroke Grove. St Michael's & A A is regarded as a High Church of England and therefore has a Priest in charge. Unfortunately the church is very seldom open due to the age and health of the present Priest. The Priest at St Michael's /Christchurch may have been the man mentioned in historical records relating to Harry Farr, however to throw a spanner in the works; St Charles' Square was and still is associated with Roman Catholicism. Cardinal Manning started a Women's Teacher's Training College in the Square and the place still contains three RC Schools, a Convent and many RC owned properties. If Gertrude worked for a family with Irish roots, it is likely that she would have been Roman Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 4 May , 2016 Share Posted 4 May , 2016 I searched 'UK, Army Register of Soldiers' Effects' to find a possible address for his wife, but nothing given. It does refer to date & place of Death as 18-10-16 'in the field' France, and states that war gratuity (is) 'not admissible'. Other war-death casualties are listed as 'killed in action' or 'of wounds'. Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 4 May , 2016 Share Posted 4 May , 2016 Ken, I think it also confirms my idea that guard rooms were considered more secure if located within a town/village location rather than something like Minden Post in the field. APM's HQ and the guard room don't have to share a location, he did after all have a team under him. Myrtle, I wasn't aware of the St. Charles Sq. address or the Irish connection. I thought I had her baptism at a C of E church, will check that. Genuki says that Christchurch, Victoria Rd. ( is that the same as Christchurch, Wornington Rd?) has always been a chapel of ease to St Mary Abbot's and that registers from Christchurch are held by St Mary Abbot's. I assume Christchurch was performing baptisms and marriages but that's not always the case. I'd suggest to Dave that another enquiry to St. Mary Abbot's re Gertrude's baptism record could provide another bit of the jig saw. There is a phone number for the vicar on their site. And an email address. http://smanews.weebly.com/ TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 4 May , 2016 Share Posted 4 May , 2016 Tew It would narrow down the search if you have Gertrude listed as CofE. Christchurch, Victoria Road is not Christchurch which stood on the corner of Telford Road and Wornington Road. As I mentioned Christchurch in North Kensington was demolished in the 1940s. Christchurch in Victoria Rd is still standing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 4 May , 2016 Share Posted 4 May , 2016 I hope that in the fullness of time, once Dave has had the opportunity to follow up the potential leads, he will be kind enough to post his conclusions. This topic has clearly engrossed a number of people other than me. I know that other accounts are available elsewhere, but it would be a real shame that, if for posterity, the topic ended without (as best as can be said) Harry's fuller story being told/posted, and remembered. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 4 May , 2016 Share Posted 4 May , 2016 There are marriage records for Harry's bothers, Sidney, Cecil and Ernest. They were married at Christ Church, on the corner of Telford Road and Wornington Road in the Parish of Kensington. I haven't been able to find a record for Harry's marriage at Christ Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 4 May , 2016 Share Posted 4 May , 2016 I seem to remember when I was very young, being taken to a wedding where I think the bride was CoE and the groom RC. During the service the bride changed to RC. Not sure what the correct name is for this sort of service. Does anyone know whether this would be the norm or could the groom do the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 4 May , 2016 Share Posted 4 May , 2016 Can not help with your question Johnboy but I have found evidence that Gertrude Farr was most probably Church of England. She was remarried in 1920 at Christ Church, North Kensington (often referred to at that time as Notting Hill) to William Henry Batstone. It seems that the priest referred to earlier would have been High Church of England. Edit: Additionally Gertrude was baptised at Christ Church, North Kensington. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 4 May , 2016 Share Posted 4 May , 2016 Thanks. No need to pursue that then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now