Pt. Harry Farr. shot at dawn, Carnoy, Oct. 18th. 1916

[TEW]

Myrtle,

I can see now how far the Victoria Rd Christchurch is from where they were all living, almost adjacent to the the other Christchurch. But in same Parish?

The good news that you probably know is that LMA have baptism records for St Michaels & All Angels, assuming they were in charge of the registers for Christchurch, Telford Rd. Is this where someone could look for Gertrude Jnr.'s baptism in 1913. LMA P84/MAA??

Or are the registers in P84/CTC1 Christchurch, Notting Hill, Telford Rd.

TEW

[seaforths]

Links from kenf48 - seems they managed the circumstances within each division and according to the circumstances they found themselves in at the time - kind of what I suspected really. They must have had some standardisation in the way of orders on what they must do and may do (which might have changed during the course of the war). I did think that looking for a baptismal entry in the church ledger might be over-complicating things. The current minister would surely be able to check records of who was in place in 1916. What did occur to me is that any letter to a minister at the church might not be in church records as he might have considered it personal property if addressed to him by name...

I did manage to track down these:

[johnboy]

Who is the photo of?

[seaforths]

both from this site: https://northkensingtonhistories.wordpress.com/2016/01/21/the-science-district-of-north-kensington-2/

The second one is posted as being the choir 'about the time of the First World War'. Which also made me wonder if, in big churches, they had more than one minister working in the parish. If there was for example a Canon with a reverend or two working in the parish with him.

Folks with some local knowledge might get more out of searching for names than me.

Who is the photo of?

Oh sorry, that was the football team 1915/16

Edit: both images Christ Church, North Kensington

[seaforths]

Also there was a manse or vicarage that was demolished some years later. Would there be an entry on the census for 1911 for who was living in the vicar's house?

[johnboy]

From Wiki

While smaller villages may only have a parish church, larger towns may have a parish church and then also smaller churches in various districts which do not have the status of 'parish church'. Often the parish church will be the only one to have a full-time minister, who will also serve any smaller churches within the parish.

[seaforths]

From the same link as previous: 'Wornington Road. Wornington School (the first building) is clearly marked and on the corner of Wornington Road and Telford Road is Christ Church, with th Vicarage and Church Hall on Farady Road' gives the location of a Vicarage.

[seaforths]

Forum Padre might be able to offer some helpful advice in this part of the discussion...

[TEW]

I agree that finding Gertrude Jnr.'s baptism recording to find out who performed the ceremony and assuming he's the man that received the letter from Harry's Chaplain and visitied Gertrude Snr. starts to distract from the OP.

We could have a discussion on how Chapels of ease came into being and where their records are held.

Perhaps these are things for Dave to pursue along with the audio files, they are bits of the jigsaw and will add to the overall story and I'd certainly like to hear the interviews and find out who the 'Vicar' was even if it leads no further.

As far as the original query is concerned my thoughts are that once a suitable APM's guard house had been identified and strengthened it would simply be handed over from division to division, possibly for years? Unless of course it was shelled or overun.

So, a ref to Carnoy guard house in eg Feb 1916 or March 1917 could ID the same place as Oct 1916.

The APM's HQ and guard house don't have to occupy the same location, he did have a team under him to man the guard house.

In the days leading up to the 18th the APM was busy organising traffic, making sure roads were kept clear, that people were using the designated routes and were where they were supposed to be. He also had to make arrangements for straggler's posts, and that men didn't 'accidently' get lost on the way up to the forming up line on the 18th.

It certainly makes sense to have his HQ with the other HQs for ease of communication but from his perspective dealing with his other duty that morning 2 or so hours after zero could have been dealt with in a different manner.

I also agree that while some aspects of that day were laid down in military law, the logistics and circumstances dictate that variations occur.

I've just seen another case where the Senior Chaplain only received the news with 24 hours notice and had to find a denomination specific Chaplain to attend as the condemned had asked for a Chaplain to attend. The Chaplain in question was only located and sent there late afternoon on day prior to exeucution at 7AM.

No suggestion in this case that the blindfold was optional.

The condemed's Infantry Brigade (who were on the FGCM) gave the order to the APM to make all the arrangements as to Location, guard detail, squad and burial party. But perhaps in other cases the Chaplain would take over some of those duties after a request to the APM.

TEW

[Myrtle]

Cecil, Harry's brother was married by Rev J.S. Gibbs in 1915 at Christ Church. There were a couple of other people holding marriage services at Christ Church but one is termed as the Priest in Charge which probably indicates that he would have been based at the main church St Michael's on Ladbroke Grove.

Interestingly Rev J.S. Gibbs was the vicar at Christ Church from 1913 to 1919 and as you can see from the following served overseas during WW1.

The Rev. John Stanley Gibbs

Baptised 14 December 1879 at St. Helen's, Abingdon. Educated at Haileybury College, 1893-8, matric. at Oxford (Keble College) 1898, BA 1904, MA 1908. Student at Cuddesdon Theological College, 1904. Buried at Didmarton 2 February 1952. Memorial Tablet in St. John Baptist's Church, Shipton Moyne, nr. Tetbury.

At Haileybury he won mile and half mile races 2 years; at Keble College the half and quarter mile 3 years. President of Keble Coll. Athletic Club 1901. At Oxford House, Bethnal Green, 1902. Travelled round the world with a pupil 1903. Deacon 1904; Priest 1905. Curate of St. Pancras in the Borough of that name 1904-8; member of the Bush Brotherhood of Charleville, Queensland, 1908-11; Vicar of St. Frideswide's, Poplar, and Head of the Christ Church (Oxford) Mission there 1911-13; Vicar of Christ Church Telford Road, Kensington, 1913-19; Vicar of Badminton, co. Glos. from 1919.

Chaplain to the North Somerset Yeomanry 1911-30. In the Great War he was chaplain to the Australian Voluntary Hospital at Wimereux January-April 1915; to the 8th Cavalry Brigade (Brit. Exp. Force) September 1915-18; to the Garrison and Hospitals at Exeter February-July 1918; to the 3rd Cavalry Division (B.E.F.) 1918-19. Mentioned in despatches 1917; Military Cross 1918. 1914-15 Star, British War Medal, and Allies' (Victory) Medal of the Great War.

Rector of Shipton Moyne 1937-50. Rural Dean of Tetbury, Glos. Hon. Canon of Gloucester. Special Constable (Head) in 2nd World War. Chairman of Tetbury Grammar School.

Portrait: Pastel by W. E. Miller last in possession of his daughter Sheila (Countess of Morton).

[seaforths]

TEW - sorry, I wasn't implying that it was detracting from the OP more kind of wondering if getting the baptismal record was not really necessary if his identity could be established another way and Myrtle has done a brillliant job with that as well as you. It's still important to establish who it was if there is a chance of surviving correspondence.

And he finished up with the 3rd Cavalry Division...a half brother to one of my granddad's cousins was an RAMC Major with them in 1918 and DoW in the summer of that year...but I'm wandering off the topic. So, someone must have been minding the fort (church) while the Rev. Gibbs was away. I suppose the church records, whereever they are now kept, would hold that information. Otherwise, you would have, probably an unlikely scenario of one chaplain writing to another chaplain and then that chaplain waiting until he went on leave to visit Gertrude. Would they have had someone covering from another church? And, if the dates on the photo I posted earlier re the boys football team, are correct, would that have been whoever was standing in?

[clk]

Hi,;

... probably an unlikely scenario of one chaplain writing to another chaplain and then that chaplain waiting until he went on leave to visit Gertrude...

Thinking out loud, it might be unlikely. but I don't think that the scenario can't be absolutely ruled out. From post #133:

"Harry's widow...made a recording which was aired on Radio 4 in 1993, before she died:

'The chaplain who was there when my husband was shot wrote to the vicar at our church, at my church. And it was the vicar from my church who came back to tell me, as he thought, but in fact I already knew...' That information came from this site dated 1993: http://www.independe...se-1461394.html".

If the chaplain wrote to the vicar shortly after the event (before his attentions moved elsewhere), and the vicar was still in his Parish and acted promptly, then I would have thought that he would have visited within a handful of days from Harry's execution. So how would Gertrude already have known? The notification up the "formal" chain, and a letter being sent by the War Office [?] would surely have taken longer, and any direct notification from his chums (who might have had some knowledge) would presumably have been censored?

Again perhaps more to speculate about.

A couple of other things:

This website purports to have a postcard of Carnoy cemetery shortly post war, which from the view seems undisturbed. So if buried there, I wonder if Harry's grave was lost through the marker having gone missing/not recorded, rather than his grave having been destroyed. Although a very narrow view I also wonder if the postcard entitled "An Army chaplain tending a soldier's grave. Carnoy Valley, July 1916. Image by Lt. J. W. Brooke" might be of the cemetery. and might give an indication of burial plots that were already filled.

Googling images for "Minden Post" appears to show quite a large area, with a number of strengthened temporary positions.

Regards

Chris

[Myrtle]

The following dates are those when Rev John Stanley Gibbs was performing marriage ceremonies at Christ Church. His signature appears on the marriage registration forms. He may have been in the Parish on additional dates but the dates below give an idea of the approximate times that he was in North Kensington.

1913: He didn't hold any weddings at Christ Church - other clergy carried out wedding services

1914: 1st,6th,7th,13th,16th, 20th, 21st, 27th June; 5th, 11th, 18th July; 6th, 12th, 29th September; 4th, 12th, October; 8th, 20th November; 6th, 20th, 25th, 31st December.

1915: 31st January; 7th, 14th, 21st, 29th March; 4th, 11th, 24th, 25th, 28th April; 23rd May; 6th, 20th June; 3rd, 11th July; 4th, 5th, 11th September.

1916: 26th November; 9th December.

1917: ​He didn't hold any weddings at Christ Church - other clergy carried out wedding services - Rev J. Biggs mentioned in despatches

1918: He didn't hold any weddings at Christ Church - other clergy carried out wedding services - Rev J. Biggs awarded the MC

1919: 1st March

Rev John Gibbs' father, Rev.William C. Gibbs held marriage services at Christ Church on 31st January 1915 and again on the 1st August 1915.

Rev. John Gibbs' two brothers, served and died during WW1.

Lt. Colonel Beresford Gibbs died of wounds 13th September 1916. He was the CO of the 3rd Btn. Worcester Regiment.

Edward Reginald Gibbs was chaplain 4th Class in the 1st Btn. Grenadier Guards. He was killed by a German shell on 29th March 1918 while attending a soldier's funeral.

Chris

Your point about the vicar who came back ​fits in with the possibility that Rev J S Gibbs visited Gertrude on his return to North Kensington, indicated by the weddings he held on the 26th November and the 9th December 1916.

[johnboy]

The photos of Carnoy Cemetery during and at the end of the war seem to show small wooden crosses. The one with the chaplain has the grave marked by stones. I feel sure that the location of his grave would have been recorded somewhere and that the grave and marker was lost. Whether the burial was in this cemetery is another question.

[johnboy]

There are 30 unknowns there .CWGC site.

[TEW]

Bizarrely, googling answers to some of the recent posts I've found 5 x mp3s of the Gertrude Farr interviews, downloadable. Will wait for interested parties to listen.

TEW

[seaforths]

The following dates are those when Rev John Stanley Gibbs was performing marriage ceremonies at Christ Church. His signature appears on the marriage registration forms. He may have been in the Parish on additional dates but the dates below give an idea of the approximate times that he was in North Kensington.

1913: He didn't hold any weddings at Christ Church - other clergy carried out wedding services

1914: 1st,6th,7th,13th,16th, 20th, 21st, 27th June; 5th, 11th, 18th July; 6th, 12th, 29th September; 4th, 12th, October; 8th, 20th November; 6th, 20th, 25th, 31st December.

1915: 31st January; 7th, 14th, 21st, 29th March; 4th, 11th, 24th, 25th, 28th April; 23rd May; 6th, 20th June; 3rd, 11th July; 4th, 5th, 11th September.

1916: 26th November; 9th December.

1917: ​He didn't hold any weddings at Christ Church - other clergy carried out wedding services - Rev J. Biggs mentioned in despatches

1918: He didn't hold any weddings at Christ Church - other clergy carried out wedding services - Rev J. Biggs awarded the MC

1919: 1st March

Rev John Gibbs' father, Rev.William C. Gibbs held marriage services at Christ Church on 31st January 1915 and again on the 1st August 1915.

Rev. John Gibbs' two brothers, served and died during WW1.

Lt. Colonel Beresford Gibbs died of wounds 13th September 1916. He was the CO of the 3rd Btn. Worcester Regiment.

Edward Reginald Gibbs was chaplain 4th Class in the 1st Btn. Grenadier Guards. He was killed by a German shell on 29th March 1918 while attending a soldier's funeral.

Chris

Your point about the vicar who came back ​fits in with the possibility that Rev J S Gibbs visited Gertrude on his return to North Kensington, indicated by the weddings he held on the 26th November and the 9th December 1916.

Nice work Myrtle and I agree - well spotted Chris! I hadn't gone back to that piece before I posted.

Johnboy they should have notified the burial place but in a location where the land was taken by the Germans and taken back again by the British, anything could have happened. On the BD map I posted (page 3 of the thread) there were two margin lists with those maps, of graves not entered because there issues with the accuracy of the references that were given. I did re-check those and none of the refs in the lists that they are querying/struggling with refer to locations in any of the woods nor is any reference made to issues with Carnoy cemetery itself but clearly there were problems as TEW has found out. Over both lists, it is a substantial number of men they are talking about. If the cemetery was damaged and it was severe, it could have resulted in hasty re-burials causing mix ups. Or, it could have been caused by loss of markers that were hastily put back - in the wrong places.

[johnboy]

There does not appear to be any burials under 'UBS' .Should I being trying another search term? It would be interesting to see if any were brought in from other locations.

[momsirish]

It is a lucky family that has a known grave for their fallen kin, even if it just contains only a few of his remains.

[TEW]

There does not appear to be any burials under 'UBS' .Should I being trying another search term? It would be interesting to see if any were brought in from other locations.

I don't think you can search CWGC for UBS or Unknown or people thought to have been buried there but turned up elsewhere. There is a link in post114 page 5 to all the GRRFs for Carnoy. No sign of any concentrations.

TEW

[johnboy]

So it could be possible that he is one of UBS? Would the grave locations help us?

[clk]

... I've found 5 x mp3s of the Gertrude Farr interviews, downloadable...

Thanks for posting the link.

Regards

Chris

[TEW]

So it could be possible that he is one of UBS? Would the grave locations help us?

Well, yes that can't be ruled out. I looked at locations of graves by date sequence. A UBS dating to Oct 16 or undated but lying between 14th Oct and 21st Oct would have made been a clincher. Sadly, there's no such simple outcome to that.

There doesn't seem to be a systematic way the graves were used/dug, one would think; 'start here and move across, then up and across'. It probably means there is a system that's eluding us. Perhaps, when they had to dig several in one day they couldn't work side by side so split up and dug in several different areas.

Then there are men buried there (and identified) in 1915/16 that turned up elsewhere in 1919/20. These then became UBS or were correctly identified by GRU, which I find odd when the original burial got his name and/or number, regiment wrong. See GRRF doc1978905.jpg

Then there's the Germans who were removed elsewhere leaving vacant plots.

TEW

[seaforths]

Thanks from me too...It seems to have been extracted and edited, not the full interviews as held by IWM. I think from all that has been said previously on this thread by Myrtle regarding the vicar's identity and listening to how it was put in the recording, brings it all together; that a letter was awaiting the vicar when he returned from the Padre that had been with Harry and it seems from what we can hear, that he was relaying the content (some or all of it) verbally to her. It answers the question of where the date of the 16th October came from and why that is being used by others in writing/print.

TEW, the information you posted further back on the content of 2 of the three reels at IWM indicates that the whereabouts of his grave were mentioned, that doesn't seem to have come out in these extracts. Of course it could be that in the IWM full recordings, the whereabouts of his grave is/was questioned - just as we are doing now...

With regard to the blindfold, I'm in two minds whether to cut myself a double portion of humble pie or not. I believe he may have protested quite forcefully but not quite convinced they allowed it. I'm sure others will have other opinions on the matter that differ and I respect those. Whether he did or didn't isn't going to establish where he was shot and where he was buried.

I'd be interested to see what others picked up from it.

[seaforths]

Also forgot to mention, with regard to the IWM tapes on the subject of his grave, whether she asked questions soon afterwards and whether she received answers to those questions. If so, they should have been able to tell her where it was. On the other hand, if she asked the questions later and how much later would be important, she may have received the response that his grave had been lost.