Pt. Harry Farr. shot at dawn, Carnoy, Oct. 18th. 1916

[clk]

Hi,

The Court Martial is reported on one site as being at Ville sur Ancre.,,,

... It also indicates that the CM may well have happened at his Bde. HQ.

The brigade diary records that on 30th September the "Brigade Group" moved to "VILLE-SUR-ANCRE, MERICOURT L'ABBE, TREUX and billets". The diary indicates that Brigade HQ was at Ville-Sur-Ancre until 7th October when "The Brigade moved from VILLE-SUR-ANCRE to the CITADEL area".

The Divisional HQ (General Staff) diary entry for 1st October reads "... The Div was distributed as follows

18th Bde VILLE SUR ANCRE with one Bn at MERICOURT L' ABBE...".

There doesn't appear to be any references in the General Staff, A&Q, Brigade or Battalion diaries for the trial, notice or officer availability for it, or the eventual execution. Total speculation on my part, but the broad picture might have been - tried and found guilty in early October at Brigade HQ in Ville-Sur-Ancre, moved (pending appeal) with Division (in the custody of the APM?) to rear HQ (c.f. "Battle HQ") at Minden Post arround the 9th*, shot/executed at Caftet Wood on the 18th, and buried at Carnoy Military Cemetery.

Regards

Chris

Edit * the date the ADMS diary entry reads "Div. H.Q.* moved to F.18.c.1.1 with Battle H.Qs at S.28.a.4.4

[seaforths]

Hi,

The brigade diary records that on 30th September the "Brigade Group" moved to "VILLE-SUR-ANCRE, MERICOURT L'ABBE, TREUX and billets". The diary indicates that Brigade HQ was at Ville-Sur-Ancre until 7th October when "The Brigade moved from VILLE-SUR-ANCRE to the CITADEL area".

The Divisional HQ (General Staff) diary entry for 1st October reads "... The Div was distributed as follows

18th Bde VILLE SUR ANCRE with one Bn at MERICOURT L' ABBE...".

There doesn't appear to be any references in the General Staff, A&Q, Brigade or Battalion diaries for the trial, notice or officer availability for it, or the eventual execution. Total speculation on my part, but the broad picture might have been - tried and found guilty in early October at Brigade HQ in Ville-Sur-Ancre, moved (pending appeal) with Division (in the custody of the APM?) to rear HQ (c.f. "Battle HQ") at Minden Post arround the 9th*, shot/executed at Caftet Wood on the 18th, and buried at Carnoy Military Cemetery.

Regards

Chris

Edit * the date the ADMS diary entry reads "Div. H.Q.* moved to F.18.c.1.1 with Battle H.Qs at S.28.a.4.4

Thank you Chris, confirms what I have seen on maybe two or three occasions in the WDs I have for others - officer from one Bde. going to another Bde. for a CM. Your speculation...seems we are thinking along very similar lines. I'm not sure what condition the woods would have been in given the state of the village in 1914-15 from those images. The maps can be misleading and woods can be a collection of various sized trunks and stumps in reality.

[ss002d6252]

Sorry johnboy, I cannot find anything in that link that states their sentence was confirmed in the evening following the CM and they wee executed the next morning. I did see this

'A death sentence had to be passed unanimously, and confirmed in writing by various generals as the verdict passed up the chain of command...However, the courts were expicitly intended to be "speedy"'

Also, while I think of it, I have seen files in Divisional or Brigade War Diaries where officers have been absented from one Brigade to attend a Court Martial at another Brigade within the Division. Presumably this was how they addressed the issue of ensuring those being on the panel were unlikely to be familiar with the man on trial. It also indicates that the CM may well have happened at his Bde. HQ.

As an example, my great uncle was tried for sleeping at his post and sentenced to death (later rescinded).

He was tried & convicted on 27 Oct 15, conviction confirmed and reduced to penal servitude by Lt Gen Birdwood on 08 Nov 15 and then wholly remitted on 12 Feb 16.

The whole process of conviction and confirmation of his sentence by corps commander took nearly two weeks - it would clearly have taken longer if needed to go upwards for a death sentence to be confirmed.

Craig

[Ron Clifton]

The brigade diary records that on 30th September the "Brigade Group" moved to "VILLE-SUR-ANCRE, MERICOURT L'ABBE, TREUX and billets". The diary indicates that Brigade HQ was at Ville-Sur-Ancre until 7th October when "The Brigade moved from VILLE-SUR-ANCRE to the CITADEL area".

The Divisional HQ (General Staff) diary entry for 1st October reads "... The Div was distributed as follows

18th Bde VILLE SUR ANCRE with one Bn at MERICOURT L' ABBE...".

There doesn't appear to be any references in the General Staff, A&Q, Brigade or Battalion diaries for the trial, notice or officer availability for it, or the eventual execution. Total speculation on my part, but the broad picture might have been - tried and found guilty in early October at Brigade HQ in Ville-Sur-Ancre, moved (pending appeal) with Division (in the custody of the APM?) to rear HQ (c.f. "Battle HQ") at Minden Post arround the 9th*, shot/executed at Caftet Wood on the 18th, and buried at Carnoy Military Cemetery.

Chris

I would agree with these conclusions. A FGCM was normally convened by an officer of the rank of brigadier-general or above, and it makes sense that the GOC of the Brigade in which the man was serving would be the convening officer. It is quite plausible, in order to obtain a greater degree of impartiality, that an officer from another brigade might be called upon to sit on the FGCM. In any case, the court very probably sat at, or very close to, Ville-sur-Ancre.

I don't think there was a formal appeal procedure at this time, but if you replace "pending appeal" with "pending confirmation" it is likely that he was in the custody of the APM from his conviction until his execution.

Ron

[roughdiamond]

Thank you Chris, confirms what I have seen on maybe two or three occasions in the WDs I have for others - officer from one Bde. going to another Bde. for a CM.

seaforths

If you look at the trial transcript, you'll see that the Officers on the panel were: -

President - Lt/Col F. Spring CO 11th Essex

Capt J. Jones 2nd DLI

Lt C.A.V. Newsome 14th DLI

These 3 Regt's represented on the panel were all part of 18th Bde, 6th Div, the same Bde and Regt that Pte Farr's 1st Bn West Yorks belonged to, not sure if other FGCM's in other Div's did the same, but in Pte Farr's case the process seems to have been kept within the Bde. In that case, it would be expected that Capt A. Anderson RAMC who confirmed his Death came from the Bde's 16th, 17th or 18th Field Ambulance, although the OP states he was MO 6th DAC.

Sam

[TEW]

Cardiff Castle at present so using iPad. Not to forget Simey the APM. See Putkowski's verbatim version of WO71.

He reports after the execution that he the 6 Div. APM and certifies the execution has taken place.

Notes from Putkowski say he was also 6 DAC, maybe this is earlier. Certainly, the DAC were busy issuing ordnance on 18th.

Zero hour for Transloy was 3.40am, execution at 6 am.

TEW

[David Filsell]

Verdict of death the goes up the line of command - division, corps, army, GHQ - then confirmed or confirmation denied (the majority of cases of course) by Haig. Not a quick process. Shot at Dawn the next day is a myth.

[seaforths]

Thanks Craig, I never ever thought execution directly folloed CM. Couldn't see where johnboy was getting the information from in the link he posted. Turned out to be another link he was talking about. Sorry all for any confusion.

[Stoppage Drill]

Verdict of death the goes up the line of command - division, corps, army, GHQ - then confirmed or confirmation denied (the majority of cases of course) by Haig. Not a quick process. Shot at Dawn the next day is a myth.

Day after CinC confirmation received more like.

I don't think there was a formal appeal procedure at this time,

Ron

No formal appeal against Court Martial convictions until early 1950s, I think.

[Stoppage Drill]

As a matter of interest, after the end of the Great War the next prosecution for cowardice by Court Martial occurred in October 1953. The soldier concerned was convicted, and the findings were confirmed, but his sentence was completely remitted and he was simply booted out. Not much point to an appeal.

He has been dead for some time now.

[Ron Clifton]

Day after CinC confirmation received more like.

No formal appeal against Court Martial convictions until early 1950s, I think.

I believe that the Courts Martial Appeal Court was set up in 1951. The judges were the judges of the Queens Bench Division, i.e. those who normally presided at the Assizes.

Ron

[ss002d6252]

Thanks Craig, I never ever thought execution directly folloed CM. Couldn't see where johnboy was getting the information from in the link he posted. Turned out to be another link he was talking about. Sorry all for any confusion.

No problem, I thought I'd add it for comparisons sake. Common sense would agree that these things didn't happen overnight>

Craig

[20th Division]

Again I am amazed at the collective knowledge that has taken this subject much further than it has ever been before. Thank you.

It seems that we are getting as close as possible to locating a more precise spot for the execution and burial site of Harry Farr. I agree with cfk, Seaforths and TEW that a summary of progress so far was needed. Seems the most likely scenario so far. It would be good if it could ever be proven that a more secure building was developed in Caftet wood-for the APM's to have been located there, this would certainly add weight to this being the place where Harry Farr spent his last night---therefore very close to his place of execution. Seaforths talks about the poor condition of caftet wood by October 1916. I can also add that the roads in the area were almost impassable as a result of the excessive rains earlier in the month My Grandfather was a sergeant in the 20th DAC and working on the recently established ammunition dump at "Maricourt stone sidings railhead" (within sight of Carnoy military cemetery) throughout October 1916 and the war diary states several times that the roads were very difficult--GS wagons getting stuck--ammo baskets used to create emergency tracks to get the ammo up by pack mule etc. It is therefore a possibility that the light railway system which passed just north of Caftet wood from dumps in the locality of Minden Post passed close to the cemetery at Carnoy, so COULD have been used to transport Harry Farr's body instead of the road. The distance would have been about the same but much more convenient for the burial party. Grateful to you all for your on-going research and pooling of expertise on The Forum. Dave.

[TEW]

I've uploaded all 68 GRRF images for Carnoy Military Cemetery to dropbox, at some stage in the future I'll have to clear them out.

Also found that 8th Div took over the HQs at Bernafy Wood and Minden Post at 9 am on 20th Oct, but left within a day or so. No mention of APM.

TEW

[seaforths]

I've uploaded all 67 GRRF images for Carnoy Military Cemetery to dropbox, at some stage in the future I'll have to clear them out.

Also found that 8th Div took over the HQs at Bernafy Wood and Minden Post at 9 am on 20th Oct, but left within a day or so. No mention of APM.

Clipboard02.jpg

TEW

That's a b&gger as they would likely have inherited the same set-up. I have to say their appearance in any WDs I have, are not very frequent at all and their location marked on a map even less so. I did have a look through some copies of personal diaries I have and was frustrated by two one was captured before this date and the other was an officer who transferred before this date. I'll see if I have any relative to the 8th Division. The chances of a mention are slim but a throwaway remark missed because I didn't check would annoy me if I found it much later.

[TEW]

Yes, a bit annoying, and while trawling through a 20th Div diary earlier today because they may have had it before the 6th took it over I found a list of senior Chaplains of the 20th Div. Frustrating!! Odd diary though, a batch of correspondence out of chronological sequence and more of a post-war narrative and observations. Identified as WO95/stray/HHHH to WO95/stray/IIII. Never seen that before.

Anyway, if anyone has or intends to download the GRRF jpgs they run from doc1978897.jpg to doc1978965.jpg, there is no 1978923 it just doesn't exist, double checked.

Another CWGC thing I noticed is that Carnoy via 'find a cemetery' shows 826 burials but 'see casualty list' then says 827. I've not gone through images and totalled them up.

The Annotations and amendments in red ink must post date the typed up lists which are mostly Aug 1920. So where a man has been crossed out and either marked UBS or re-identified as someone else there doesn't seem to be a date for that annotation.

A couple of these I checked - it seems the typed up information could relate to men who never existed?? (in terms of name/number/Regt.) Or that the typed up Identified man turned up somewhere else during concentrations.

I'm guessing that the GRUs then exhumed the man with that typed up record and either identified him properly or gave a UBS status and adjusted the GRRF record.

They must have had a raft of documents now lost to us and the GRRFs on CWGC are a final version of something that probably evolved over a 10? Year period (including annotations).

Not intended as any kind of gripe, can't imagine the complexity, difficulty and scale of post-war concentration and cemetery activity.

I also assume cemeteries weren't subject to 100% exhumations and checking IDs and re-laying of men in their present row/plot.

TEW

[seaforths]

Yes, a bit annoying, and while trawling through a 20th Div diary earlier today because they may have had it before the 6th took it over I found a list of senior Chaplains of the 20th Div. Frustrating!! Odd diary though, a batch of correspondence out of chronological sequence and more of a post-war narrative and observations. Identified as WO95/stray/HHHH to WO95/stray/IIII. Never seen that before.

Anyway, if anyone has or intends to download the GRRF jpgs they run from doc1978897.jpg to doc1978965.jpg, there is no 1978923 it just doesn't exist, double checked.

Another CWGC thing I noticed is that Carnoy via 'find a cemetery' shows 826 burials but 'see casualty list' then says 827. I've not gone through images and totalled them up.

The Annotations and amendments in red ink must post date the typed up lists which are mostly Aug 1920. So where a man has been crossed out and either marked UBS or re-identified as someone else there doesn't seem to be a date for that annotation.

A couple of these I checked - it seems the typed up information could relate to men who never existed?? (in terms of name/number/Regt.) Or that the typed up Identified man turned up somewhere else during concentrations.

I'm guessing that the GRUs then exhumed the man with that typed up record and either identified him properly or gave a UBS status and adjusted the GRRF record.

They must have had a raft of documents now lost to us and the GRRFs on CWGC are a final version of something that probably evolved over a 10? Year period (including annotations).

Not intended as any kind of gripe, can't imagine the complexity, difficulty and scale of post-war concentration and cemetery activity.

I also assume cemeteries weren't subject to 100% exhumations and checking IDs and re-laying of men in their present row/plot.

TEW

From memory seeing some exhumation reports that were carried out solely for identification purposes on a group of men in a cemetery, who had not been concentrated there but buried there from the date they died, made me wonder what set them off to exhume them in the first place and then assumed (rightly or wrongly) that it must have been damage to the cemetery given it's position. This is not very pleasant to say but in some of those cases, they only found part(s) of a man, say his bottom half and there was identification in his uniform or on his boots but if another part of him was found somewhere else and also hastily buried after damage, potentially a person could have two graves one known and another unknown. Equally, depending on the damage, a man known to be, after damage could become unknown as parts may have become mixed up in hasty reburials. Some hasty reburials could have been made by the Germans who could have mixed up men, as could anyone who attempted to undertake the task quickly but the Germans would have no way of back-checking original burial documentation or asking for those checks to be made before they acted.

It is a shame that CWGC have not time, money, manpower etc. to digitise everything they have. They hold more than is digitised and the only way to find out for many too great a distance away from them is to email them. From an enquiry I made with them not so long ago, I noticed that their response time is much quicker as compared to before their digitisation took place. But sadly (and frustratingly), yes, there seems to have been a lot of it not kept. The problem is you don't know what they have/don't have on a particular individual unless you ask.

[TEW]

Perhaps you have seen these lists of holdings for the CWGC. New to me though.

Amended link to CWGC archives

Found after reading this article;

http://www.vlib.us/wwi/resources/clearingthedead.html

Which makes one think!!

TEW

[johnboy]

I keep getting a 404 error on the CWGC link

[jay dubaya]

I keep getting a 404 error on the CWGC link

Try this one johnboy

[clk]

Hi,

I keep getting a 404 error on the CWGC link

Me too.

... Found after reading this article;

http://www.vlib.us/wwi/resources/clearingthedead.html

Which makes one think!!

TEW

It must have been an horrendous job to have done. I still remember the smell from the semi naked body I found +20 years ago, where the coroner concluded she had died 6 months earlier. I guess though that the brutal reality was that for post war volunteers/re-enlistments the work had (financial) benefits to them that civilian employment couldn't provide.

Regards

Chris

[johnboy]

The extra would certainly have been an incentive. I wonder if any did it out of respect for their lost comrades?

[clk]

Hi JB,

I reckon so. Putting to one side financial necessity, thankfully money now (and presumably then) isn't always the "be all and end all" motivation of everyone.

Regards

Chris

[20th Division]

Re Caftet Wood. Is it the general opinion that this was the most likely proposal for the place of execution? Seaforths excellent postcards of Carnoy suggests there were still a fair number of ruined buildings around in 1916 in which to hold Harry in with APM guards, but given that there was a heavy demand in the village for the numerous Headquarters in and around Minden Post and senior officer billeting, I doubt if Harry would have been shot in the midst of such industry ? The semi-privacy of a nearby wood would seem logical. A few years ago I was in Carnoy to locate 20th division ammo dumps in the surrounding area and I can recall CAFTET WOOD being surrounded by stout fencing and many very large notices warning it was private property. Checking Google earth, it remains a dominant feature between "Minden Post" and Carnoy village and the wood looks dense and impenetrable. I would guess the warning signs are still there and the owner would NOT like visitors----BUT a thought occurred to me. I wonder if there are any Pals who live in the area, or know of any local people who may know of the existence of any surviving/contemporary buildings or even stories about Caftet wood?? Just another "angle" on this. Thanks again TEW, Seaforths and others for your continuing searches of cemetery records and the whereabouts of Chaplains and APM's. Again, really appreciated. Dave.

[TEW]

I still think it's a bit up in the air as to the exact location of the execution. The only records say Carnoy and at the beginning I would have taken that to mean the APM held him in a cell in Carnoy having taken over a suitable building. Looking at other execution locations there would seem to be a case to suggest it could happen almost adjacent to the holding cell. School yards, industrial areas, a nearby wall.

Having seen the diary reports on the mud conditions and problems that was causing all transport, would they have chosen a wood outside of Carnoy? Whether that's walking from the town or from Minden Post. Then they'd have to carry the body across the mud.

Some of the diaries give their location as Minden Post, Carnoy so were connecting the two locations as a generic place.

Possibly Anderson considered Minden Post as being 'Carnoy'.

With the handful of 6th Div. HQs based at Minden Post it still seems the best choice for the APM HQ but a holding cell in the town remains a possibility to me.

It would seem to my 21stC mind that holding a condemned man in the immediate area of HQs and executing him against some sandbags at Minden Post would be something the Div. Commanders would not like going on around them shortly after Zero hour for the day's attack but that's possibly the 21stC thing.

Unless more records show up that gives a location or strengthen the case for educated guesses I don't think we'll know where he was held, executed and buried any better than was suspected at the outset which was Carnoy.

Again, my view but a wooded area accessed across mud, detailing the squad, chaplain, APM and MO gathering in the woods just doesn't seem to have that army logistical air to it.

Sorry about the CWGC links, will have to learn how to do things properly via iPad.

Some rather disconcerting accusations levelled at the GRUs based on inter-GRU competitiveness in terms of 'making up' as many concentrated bodies to up their tally.

TEW