shippingsteel Posted 15 April , 2015 Share Posted 15 April , 2015 Can't remember cuffs quite like those though... No Trajan, I did see your point but I chose to ignore it on the basis that you obviously still don't know how to identify a basic Saxon uniform, let alone a Bavarian one.! But if you insist on learning more than I will try to oblige. Everything must be taken in context, and of course hues of colour can differ. The key is the contrast in tones. I think a wise man once said, "that a little knowledge is a long march from having a good understanding". Only people lacking in such knowledge jump to conclusions. As for the rifles, many unmodified Gew.88/S (without magazine covers) are commonly seen in wartime photos. But some were modified by the addition of these covers. With this modification it makes it almost impossible to tell what variant they are, without seeing a closeup of the breech to check for the presence of said charger guides. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 15 April , 2015 Share Posted 15 April , 2015 No Trajan, I did see your point but I chose to ignore it on the basis that you obviously still don't know how to identify a basic Saxon uniform, let alone a Bavarian one.! But if you insist on learning more than I will try to oblige. Everything must be taken in context, and of course hues of colour can differ. The key is the contrast in tones. I think a wise man once said, "that a little knowledge is a long march from having a good understanding". Only people lacking in such knowledge jump to conclusions. As for the rifles, many unmodified Gew.88/S (without magazine covers) are commonly seen in wartime photos. But some were modified by the addition of these covers. With this modification it makes it almost impossible to tell what variant they are, without seeing a closeup of the breech to check for the presence of said charger guides. Thanks yet again for your useful and carefully phrased advice SS! However, I am glad that you do see the point about tunic hues/tones whatever in a B+W photograph as not being a reliable guide to an actual colour! BTW, as any fule If you must throw barbs at the same time at least get it right! Actually, it's Pope, An Essay on Criticism: "A little learning is a dangerous thing;/Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring." and to which piece we also owe the line: "To err is human, to forgive divine." But you are right, bookish learnin'.... Pink Floyd... etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 15 April , 2015 Share Posted 15 April , 2015 As the conversation had veered of into shades of blue, then just for reference purposes I thought I'd put up this Drake Goodman (Blake, if you prefer) photograph originally posted on another GWF thread (and later deleted) as the men here were claimed (on account of their apparent tunic colour) to be Bavarians - even though two of the men would appear to sport Kaiser-Wilhelm-Erinnerungsmedaille Zentenarmedaille, established 22 March 1897 (yes, that's a yellow ribbon!). Although the medal was (apparently) issued to some Bavarian units, it was essentially a Prussian decoration. Either way, these chaps have to be around 34+ to be wearing this and so presumably belong to a Landwehr unit, but the main thing I want to stress here is how SS is quite right - it is those little details that cuffs and the like can trip the unwary! As the poet said - "Be sure your self and your own Reach to know/How far your Genius, Taste, and Learning go" This copy, downloaded for reference purposes from an earlier thread, originally from the Drake Goodman archive Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 16 April , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 April , 2015 Here is one the date of which may be narrowed down by equipment. My knowledge is insufficiently detailed but the presence of a gas mask tin presumably means it is post April 1915 but a Pickelhalbe would suggest pre.....? When were Stahlhelm the norm? mid 1916? It also appears his jacket has contrasting coloured cuffs? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 16 April , 2015 Share Posted 16 April , 2015 I have no idea about the rate of stahlhelm introduction but this chap has a S.98, and so that suggests it is a pre-late-1917 photograph as by then - according to the German documents I have seen or know of - most (but not all) S.98 had been taken out of service and replaced by S.98/05 (I must have the figures and dates at home somewhere - picked up while researching Ersatz!). No idea as to his clothing - except those highly polished centres to his buttons suggest a small raised crown! BTW, found these photographs of a muzzle cover which I though might interest you and others - you can see how this fitted over the front sights and how the 'cap' can be turned back on its hinge: the first is WW1 type and is from a certain on-line site (where there are a few others), the second is a WW2 example, but operates the same way (the typological difference is the the way the cylindrical part is connected to the front sight attachment part), and is from http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=67033&page=4... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 20 April , 2015 Author Share Posted 20 April , 2015 Few more from a Sunday evening scanning session. Can these chaps be identified by the plate on their helmets? There are partial should boards visible but I see nothing definitive. (Oh I sneaked a bayonet and a muzzle cover in there for you Julian) Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 20 April , 2015 Author Share Posted 20 April , 2015 I see nothing to identify these chaps by at all.... but there is a lot of writing on the back - but I cannot make head nor tail of it: Chris This is a nice group of Pioneers (I think - based on the back) The back: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 20 April , 2015 Share Posted 20 April , 2015 Few more from a Sunday evening scanning session. Can these chaps be identified by the plate on their helmets? picklehalbe.jpg 4a.jpg There are partial should boards visible but I see nothing definitive. (Oh I sneaked a bayonet and a muzzle cover in there for you Julian) Chris Yes, the S.98 and muzzle cover are nice! I'll take a guess on Wappen ID before going to teach class... Those helmet plates look to me to be Bavarian, on account of the cross with the shield at the intersection of the four arms and the scrolly-thingy on the sides and the bottom - I think Prussian ones have a distinctive eagle holding a mace and something in the claws? I'll double-check later - if I have not been shot down in flames by then! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 20 April , 2015 Share Posted 20 April , 2015 I see nothing to identify these chaps by at all....but there is a lot of writing on the back - but I cannot make head nor tail of it: ... This is a nice group of Pioneers (I think - based on the back) Those desperadoes seem to me to have Landsturm caps, although I canna see the brim... As for that writing, well, I found 'Wir' at the beginning of the second line! Nice to see that two of the officers in charge of the Pioneers (at the back on the right) are enjoying the whole thing! And looks to be an EK ribbon in the buttonhole of the chap holding the axe at rear left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWK Posted 20 April , 2015 Share Posted 20 April , 2015 Few more from a Sunday evening scanning session. Can these chaps be identified by the plate on their helmets? picklehalbe.jpg 4a.jpg There are partial should boards visible but I see nothing definitive. (Oh I sneaked a bayonet and a muzzle cover in there for you Julian) Chris Bayern ? http://www.kaisersbunker.com/dunkelblau/helmets/dbh05.htm and the message on the card is about how everything/food is so expensive, "How are things in the Fatherland, is everything also so expensive. My wife writes that ham is 1.80 but it's only fat, and even then not always available. Same with bread. etc". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierast Posted 20 April , 2015 Share Posted 20 April , 2015 I see nothing to identify these chaps by at all.... Seemingly Saxon Landsturm infantry, lthough the lack of collar numerals is vexing. They could also conceivably belong to one of the home service Landwehr units (such as an Ersatz-Bataillon of one of the field regiments). This is a nice group of Pioneers (I think - based on the back) Ah, a nice easy one. 1. Landwehr-Pionier-Kompagnie des XVIII.AK, part of Pionier-Bataillon 409 within 9. Landwehr-Division (which is what 'Feldpost 947' corresponds to at this point in the war). This division was in the Argonne, 'north of Vienne-le-Chateau' according to 251 Divisions (which is probably based on correct information in this instance, since the division unquestionably remained stationary for a long time). Note that Landwehr-Pionier-Kompagnien were numbered as standard in the same manner as Landsturm units (parent corps and individual unit number within the corps series). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 21 April , 2015 Author Share Posted 21 April , 2015 Thanks Andi/JKW and Julian. Here's another one - nice clear number (20) but....is he an infantryman? wagons or limbers in the rear? I am also interested in the weapon he has under his arm....is it a Gew 88 or a Kar 88? or....... The angle has a foreshortening effect but it does look very short. The side sling and muzzle would appear to favor the latter, no obvious rollercoaster rear sight and the shape of the muzzle would appear to rule out Gew 98 but could it be a 98AZ? Although unclear the foresight protectors would suggest this to me. looks to be a different style of cartridge carriers too (thinner and more curved/shallower than the standard single boxes) Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 21 April , 2015 Share Posted 21 April , 2015 Bayern ? http://www.kaisersbunker.com/dunkelblau/helmets/dbh05.htm and the message on the card is about how everything/food is so expensive, "How are things in the Fatherland, is everything also so expensive. My wife writes that ham is 1.80 but it's only fat, and even then not always available. Same with bread. etc". Thanks for that link to pickelhauben - I had clean forgotten about that site... And well done on that translation! Thanks Andi/JKW and Julian. Here's another one - nice clear number (20) but....is he an infantryman? wagons or limbers in the rear? I am also interested in the weapon he has under his arm....is it a Gew 88 or a Kar 88? or....... ... The side sling and muzzle would appear to favor the latter, no obvious rollercoaster rear sight and the shape of the muzzle would appear to rule out Gew 98 but could it be a 98AZ? It looks to me as if he is wearing an artillery pickelahube, with a rounded top, and Field Artillery guys did have carbines, if I recall correctly, and the bayonet's length suggests to me a regular pattern (leather scabbard) short one (the handle is around 1/3rd the length), so carbine length bayonet (and wasn't the cyclists Kar98AZ given side slings?). I'll stick my neck out - perhaps 1. Posensches Feld-Artillerie-Regiment Nr.20? If completely and absolutely wrong - please be gentle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierast Posted 21 April , 2015 Share Posted 21 April , 2015 Thanks Andi/JKW and Julian. Here's another one - nice clear number (20) but....is he an infantryman? wagons or limbers in the rear? artyman.jpg Fussartillerie (heavy artillery). They had Brandenburg cuffs except (naturally) for the Saxons, who had the Saxon / German cuff as per Saxon infantry. The Fussartillerie were issued with carbines (together with the smaller ammunition pouches seen here) as standard even in peacetime. Presumably your man belongs to Lauenburgisches Fußartillerie-Regiment Nr.20. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 21 April , 2015 Share Posted 21 April , 2015 Fussartillerie (heavy artillery). They had Brandenburg cuffs except (naturally) for the Saxons, who had the Saxon / German cuff as per Saxon infantry. The Fussartillerie were issued with carbines (together with the smaller ammunition pouches seen here) as standard even in peacetime. Presumably your man belongs to Lauenburgisches Fußartillerie-Regiment Nr.20. Thanks Andi - I thought it was only the FA guys who had the carbines, but I answered this one in my office where I have no uniform books and only Carter I and II... (Sounds of slapping wrist) - I knew I should have checked Friedag and Moritz Ruhl before coming into work... Anyway, I'll hazard a guess before getting back home to check: all AzF units had Brandenburg cuffs and all FA units had Swedish? Julian PS: Incidentally, I have yet to see an Ersatz marked to a AzF unit or a photograph of somebody in such a unit clearly wearing one - do you know of any examples? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierast Posted 21 April , 2015 Share Posted 21 April , 2015 Thanks Andi - I thought it was only the FA guys who had the carbines, but I answered this one in my office where I have no uniform books and only Carter I and II... (Sounds of slapping wrist) - I knew I should have checked Friedag and Moritz Ruhl before coming into work... Until WW1 the men of the Feldartillerie were armed as standard with a handgun and either a sabre (drivers and NCOs) or a bayonet (gunners). The issue of carbines (and eventually, machine-guns and hand grenades) was an ad-hoc wartime measure. The gunners of the Fussartillerie had carbines and bayonets from the outset. Anyway, I'll hazard a guess before getting back home to check: all AzF units had Brandenburg cuffs and all FA units had Swedish? All non-Saxon Fussartillerie had black-piped Brandenburg cuffs, and all (including Saxon) Feldartillerie had black-piped Swedish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWK Posted 21 April , 2015 Share Posted 21 April , 2015 Until WW1 the men of the Feldartillerie were armed as standard with a handgun and either a sabre (drivers and NCOs) or a bayonet (gunners). The issue of carbines (and eventually, machine-guns and hand grenades) was an ad-hoc wartime measure. The gunners of the Fussartillerie had carbines and bayonets from the outset. All non-Saxon Fussartillerie had black-piped Brandenburg cuffs, and all (including Saxon) Feldartillerie had black-piped Swedish. Aha, so this chap would then be a driver in 2. sächsisch Feldartillerie Regiment Nr.28 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierast Posted 21 April , 2015 Share Posted 21 April , 2015 Aha, so this chap would then be a driver in 2. sächsisch Feldartillerie Regiment Nr.28 ? Sachsen 28.jpg Are the shoulderstraps visible on the original? The King of Saxony made the Tsar honorary Chef of FAR 28 a few years before the war, receiving a similar Russian honour in return. This provoked much consternation among the Prussians, who had seemingly not been consulted! Based on photographic evidence the Russian royal cypher granted to FAR 28 was worn in the field as late as 1915, although this was of course gradually replaced by the now official '28' http://www.royalsaxonarmy.co.uk/images/FAR28_imFeldRussZiffer.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWK Posted 21 April , 2015 Share Posted 21 April , 2015 Almost impossible to see, but it dóes bear a resemblance to the shoulderstraps on the picture from France: (And actually the identification as Regt 28 came from the seller.... The picture was taken in Bautzen, by Rich. Huth) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierast Posted 21 April , 2015 Share Posted 21 April , 2015 Almost impossible to see, but it dóes bear a resemblance to the shoulderstraps on the picture from France: (And actually the identification as Regt 28 came from the seller.... The picture was taken in Bautzen, by Rich. Huth) Sachsen 2.jpg Agreed, that is most definitely the uniform of FAR 28. I should point out that besides the field regiment there were also various corps and army ammunition columns formed from its reservists - these usually seem to have worn their old regimental numbers with no specific distinctions. FAR 28 also had a mobile Ersatz-Abteilung in the field with 19. Ersatz-Division, which again wore the uniform of their parent regiment until absorbed into the newly formed EFAR 45 in 1915. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 4 May , 2015 Share Posted 4 May , 2015 Here is one for now - which I suspect may not be military but may be uniformed railway employees or some such (although the chap in the center does appear to have two cockarden) railway.jpg detail.jpg Well, I haven't yet found an exact match for that collar patch, but the Kraftfahrtruppen had a little motor car on their collar patch! (See: Kraus, Die deutsche Armee p. 497). And so I think these chaps may well be Eisenbahntruppe, although Kraus does not give an example. On the other hand, Sommers, The Imperial German Armies, p.863 shows that winged wheel cap badge and identifies it as being for the Eisenbahn-Betriebs-Kompagnie... The example he gives is Bavarian, and he adds that the scroll 'E' on the shoulder tabs for Eisenbahn chaps replaced the winged wheel in Bavaria in 1913. Chris, given that an illustration of this collar patch is absent from both of these books you may have a rarity there! Julian EDIT: re the possibility of those 'Eisenbahn' collar patches being rare - just to remind you that (post 1): "These originated from a dealer in Germany so it is unlikely that there is anything really special in them (by which I mean I suspect they have been sorted through)" - I reckon he missed some things! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 4 May , 2015 Share Posted 4 May , 2015 1w.jpg Reverse 1back.jpg Chris A little bit of book learning indicates that the chap with the white brassard and its horizontal stripe in the threesome at the centre of the photograph is a 'Feldgeistlicher' or chaplain... See Krauss, Die deutsche Armee, 576-581. The horizontal strip is purple/violet in colour, and at the front / side of the armband this was interrupted by a red cross - this photograph, reproduced for reference from: https://www.tumblr.com/search/feldgeistlicher, shows the brassard. Earlier I was puzzling over the feldmutze, but they are German... The light band around the ones worn by the chaps in the foreground may be blue? So these could be Train-Batailione men? One of the deceased is from a Train unit. (Krankentrager / Krankenwarter had red ones which would appear black in the photograph...) This guy here reproduced for reference from http://www.milex.de/forum/anhaenge/full/1157-uniformentopic_0.jpg is apparently from the Train-Bataillon 15 aus Straßburg and it seems to me to me the feldmutze band is the same hue as the lads in the photograph... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 4 May , 2015 Share Posted 4 May , 2015 and a formal portrait with shoulder number (8? or B?) dated 30/10/15 and a very plain belt -- with a sword 41.jpg 41detail.jpg I don't think this one was identified, but perhaps a rider with the 9th Train Batallion? The hat band looks white, but could be that light blue, and the Swedish cuffs are ok, and he is wearing cavalry boots, trousers and a cavalry belt, and has what I think is a K-Saebel 1852? Alternatively 9th Dragoons? My only real hesitation there is that the shoulder tabs were, pre-GW at least, piped in white. Problem comes with that troddel... Can't identify it... Looks Wurttemburgishes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 10 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 10 May , 2015 Thanks for the continuing comments and assistance. I am gradually sorting other various images I have picked up over the years including a few more German ones so while these are not from the same batch that started the thread they raise some of the same questions so I'll post a few. Difficult to see anything on these men that could identify the unit - the braces for the ammunition belts look to be cloth(?) rather than leather or at least of a different pattern than those shown above. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 10 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 10 May , 2015 These chaps show different medals? presumably state rather than nation? I am not sure if it possible to identify them from this picture. Coloured collar patches but no insignia obvious to me (apart from drummer in the centre) The rolled greatcoat (?) is also something I have not seen much before. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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