4thGordons Posted 27 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 27 January , 2015 And a Zeughaus is where they keep the weapons. Armoury? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 27 January , 2015 Share Posted 27 January , 2015 Interesting view of a stripped Machine Gun.... I keep coming back to the photos' on this thread partly because of their personal nature but also their variety! This one has been sitting around in my noddle for a while - what have we here (apart from the stripped machine gun!)? Ok, the 'waffenmeister' is, I think, an Etatmässige Feldwebel, wearing the double band of lace on the straight cuffs of his Model 1915 tunic (but I can't see a rank button over his collar boards). He doesn't seem to have a MG-Scharfschützen Ärmelabzeichen (machine gunner specialist badge) though... But those were not obligatory... His students have a mix of tunics - some the fly-fronted 1915 type, but at least one in a Model 1907/10 with the Brandenburg cuffs... At least one of the others might have a Model 1910 'Vereinfachte' tunic as I can't see any piping there. Also, quite a few of those chaps have the camoflauge (for which read plain grey-brown!) covers over their lower cockades and the coloured bands on their Krätzchen (officially known as Feldmütze für Mannschafte!). And at least five have EKII ribbons, so these are not novices. Well, that's my interpretation... And if I have made any errors in this, then no doubt I will be corrected and my wrists slapped as well, but good enought to be going along with???!!! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 27 January , 2015 Share Posted 27 January , 2015 camouflage band as seen in post nr.149 You probably know this, but others might not but I think that 'BD III' Is the stamp for the Bavarian 'B[ekleidungs] D[epot] III? I haven't been able to track down the proper name for these items... The basic coloured band was known as a Mützenband and there are quite a few references on German sites to the original coloured bands being covered with a grünen umlaufenden Mützenband after 1916/1917, but what the proper name is I haven't discovered... yet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 30 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 30 January , 2015 A couple more interesting - what I think are probably pre-war photos. Some good Steins in this one but I can't make out enough detail on them to tell anything much from them - there are also a couple of swords that may be of interests. The epaulettes do not seem to have a number but appear to be some sort of monogram - or possibly a grenade shaped device? hard to tell... Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 30 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 30 January , 2015 And again I think pre-war, with the older style cartridge boxes and Picklehalben without covers - but the men do appear to be equipped with Gew 98s Difficult to tell but the drummer on the left (as we look) appears to have a 2 digit number on his shoulder board (perhaps 11?) but I do not see any on the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 30 January , 2015 Share Posted 30 January , 2015 Armoury? A couple more interesting - what I think are probably pre-war photos. Some good Steins in this one but I can't make out enough detail on them to tell anything much from them - there are also a couple of swords that may be of interests. The epaulettes do not seem to have a number but appear to be some sort of monogram - or possibly a grenade shaped device? hard to tell... 1w.jpg 259d.jpg 259d2.jpg Chris First thoughts. Yes, pre-GW. Artillery swords? and it looks like the flaming bomb of a Feldartillerie unit - but no number... I guess the tunics are the 1900 Litewka. I'll check the cockades later - but what is that goat doing there? Regimental mascot? EDIT: Oh, it's not a goat - it's a seat carved like a hund of some kind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 30 January , 2015 Share Posted 30 January , 2015 And again I think pre-war, with the older style cartridge boxes and Picklehalben without covers - but the men do appear to be equipped with Gew 98s Difficult to tell but the drummer on the left (as we look) appears to have a 2 digit number on his shoulder board (perhaps 11?) but I do not see any on the others. 2w.jpg 260d.jpg A quick guess - Bavarians from the style of the pickelhaube and the Landeskokarde on the officer's cap. The wappen on the pickelhaube look shiny and so the pre-1915 model? I'll try to catch up and correct where necessary when I get a break from classes.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 30 January , 2015 Share Posted 30 January , 2015 Re post #179, This one is most likely pre-war, but it is always hard to be certain. The men are wearing the Litewka fatigue tunics and have the collar tabs of the Landsturm. I can not make out the shoulder boards, but maybe they are an Artillerie unit with a grenade/bomb symbol. Perhaps supported by the three Artillerie-Säbel.? Re post#180 This group is definitely Bavarian Infanterie as their Pickelhauben all show the Bayern Wappen plates, with the Dunkelblau tunics sporting Brandenburg cuffs. I would say this is most likely wartime, plenty of 1914 'occupation of Belgium' photos show units just like these. Maybe the Bayerische. Infanterie-Regt. Nr.11 Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 30 January , 2015 Share Posted 30 January , 2015 Re post #179, I can not make out the shoulder boards, but maybe they are an Artillerie unit with a grenade/bomb symbol. Perhaps supported by the three Artillerie-Säbel.? Re post#180 This group is definitely Bavarian Infanterie as their Pickelhauben all show the Bayern Wappen plates, with the Dunkelblau tunics sporting Brandenburg cuffs. I would say this is most likely wartime, plenty of 1914 'occupation of Belgium' photos show units just like these. Maybe the Bayerische. Infanterie-Regt. Nr.11 Thanks for the confirmations on those ID's SS! My only quibble would be seeing those Bavarian men as occupation troops - they could be, but their shiny wappen plates could also mean that this is a pre-GW photograph. I am in my office now and can't check my files, but I think the shiny 'silver' and brass plates were replaced with a non-shiny grey steel one late 1914 or early 1915. As for the Bayerische Infanterie-Regt. Nr.11, well that was certainly in action on the west front in 1914-1916... In which case perhaps the dull-coloured schwalbennesten of the two musicians do indicate a war time photograph? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 3 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 3 February , 2015 Another extract from a group shot. Can anyone identify the flag here? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 4 February , 2015 Share Posted 4 February , 2015 That's not AH at the extreme right is it???!!! That aside, I get a feeling that it might be a veterans association? Only two uniforms, both dress/parade type, and EK's on the chest; a lot of men in civvies, some with lapel badges; and at least one tooth-brush moustache, styled for the fitting of a gas mask (or so we are led to believe) and popular during the later phases of WW1 and up to 1945... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 4 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 4 February , 2015 This is just the centre of a much bigger group pic - Mostly civilians but a groups of uniformed/ bemedalled types at one end (cropped out of the image I posted) Could be veterans (or recruits - would post war vets still have worn pickelhalben?) - but that is why I wanted to ID the flag Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 6 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 6 February , 2015 Still going.... I am familiar with the field grey Picklehalbe covers...I assume this rather odd looking head wear is a Shako (Tschako?) cover? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 7 February , 2015 Share Posted 7 February , 2015 He's a member of a Jaeger Bataillon (Feldgrau tunic with Swedish cuffs) and is wearing the Tschako helmet with Uberzug (cloth cover). The Garde Litzen on cuffs and collar indicate he is part of the Garde Korps. Most likely a member of the prestige Garde-Jäger-Bataillon. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 February , 2015 Share Posted 7 February , 2015 Trust SS just to do the easy bit leaving the real work to others... Ok, let's see if we can add anything to this through a more forensic analysis... He has a pistol, so a P.08, and a sabre, and the hilt of the sabre matches that on the standard Artillery sabre. However, that type of hilt was also used by Weyersberg Kirschbaum (at least) specifically for the Artillery and Cavalry sabres they made for Prussia (although the actual grip doesn't quite match their style). And so as this chap certainly looks to be Garde-Jäger-Bataillon, then it will be a Cavalry sabre (alter Art), as that is what certain members of that unit carried, and not an Artillery sabre, which it seems to be at first glance! Working on the basis that he is indeed Garde-Jäger-Bataillon, then as far as my sources go, the only men with that combination of weaponry would be: the Trainunteroffiziere (according to DVE 222, 1899), or the Sänitatsvizefeldwebel (according to Friedag 1914). So far, so good - BUT, he doesn't have the unteroffizier braid on his cuffs or collar, and there is no sign of a NCO button on his collar, and he has a regular troddel - which means that he doesn't quite fit with the regulations for those chappies! Even so, that combination of PO8 and sabre is distinctive... And as far as I can establish, the only other men in the Garde-Jäger-Bataillon who had a P08 and a Blankwaffen but who were not of NCO status were the 16 or so krankenträger - but according to the 1899 regulations they carried a S.71/84, while according to Friedag (1914) they carried a S.98, and so bayonets not sabres... Hmm, he is a bit of a conundrum...!!! Anyone out there who can explain? Has the unit been correctly identified? Trajan PS: BTW, his collar thingies - if Garde-Jäger-Bataillon, they will be green on a yellow background, as that is what the Garde-Jäger-Bataillon had! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritz Posted 7 February , 2015 Share Posted 7 February , 2015 He is equipped as a mounted soldier. So not Jäger, they were infantrymen. Which troops had also a Shako. Telegraph and Aviation troops. So I plead for a private of Telegraphen-Bataillon 1 (Garde-Korps) from Berlin. I would like to have an enlargement of his shoulder-board! Fritz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 February , 2015 Share Posted 7 February , 2015 He is equipped as a mounted soldier. So not Jäger, they were infantrymen. Yes, but if he is a Train officer... They were mounted! The only problem with that idea, though, is the lack of any NCO braid or buttons anywhere... The only other possibility that occurred to me was he belonged to a Jager zu Pferd unit - but I don't think that there was ever a Garde-Jager zu pferde unit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 February , 2015 Share Posted 7 February , 2015 According to http://www.kaisersbunker.com/pt/tschako.htm(and I have found Kaiserbunker accurate on things whenever I have cross-referenced and checked them), after 1842 the tschako was worn by: "Jäger and Schützen (light infantry), Telegraph, Train (Supply), and other small units." To which list we should of course add the dear old Landsturm But our chappie has those Swedish cuffs (schwedische Ärmelaufschläge), with upper and lower edge piping, and what are ostensibly Garde litzen... So, are these particular cuffs restricted to the Guard units? It seems possibly not... The 1910 Moritz Ruhl, in its 'Feld Uniform der Manschaften' section, states: "An den schwedischen Ärmelaufschlägen sind auf jedem aufschlag zwei senkrechte litzen nebeneinander auf der ausseren seite des armels angebracht" which is what we have here, swedish cuffs with parallel litzen - but it does not state that this style is unit-specific, i.e. that it is only worn by Guard units! Oh, it also states that Sanitätsoffiziere don't have any litzen on their collars or cuffs... So we can rule that one out... Guess its back to Friedag and all the other stuff on this one. Like I said, it's a conundrum... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 7 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 7 February , 2015 I would like to have an enlargement of his shoulder-board! Fritz Hi Fritz Here is about the best I can manage from my original scan (I tweaked the contrast to make the embroidery stand out a little more) If this is no good I will see if I can rescan. The original scan was at 600dpi and I have found scanning at much higher creates a huge file without adding much to the detail captured but I can certainly try. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 February , 2015 Share Posted 7 February , 2015 Well, does not fit with any Jager unit as far as I can see... Nor is it Telegraph either... But that's only what I think so we'll see if Fritz can come up with the goods! EDIT: Well Friedag has over 100 pages on hat differences, and I'm bu**ered if I am going to work through those for zero credit! Fritz? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritz Posted 7 February , 2015 Share Posted 7 February , 2015 Yes, but if he is a Train officer... They were mounted! The only problem with that idea, though, is the lack of any NCO braid or buttons anywhere... The only other possibility that occurred to me was he belonged to a Jager zu Pferd unit - but I don't think that there was ever a Garde-Jager zu pferde unit... Hi Trajan, as you say, he is not an officer. Jäger zu Pferd had not a shako but a helmet of metal similar the "pickelhaube" Kind regards Fritz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritz Posted 7 February , 2015 Share Posted 7 February , 2015 Hi Fritz Here is about the best I can manage from my original scan (I tweaked the contrast to make the embroidery stand out a little more) shoulder.jpg If this is no good I will see if I can rescan. The original scan was at 600dpi and I have found scanning at much higher creates a huge file without adding much to the detail captured but I can certainly try. Chris For my eyes it is a "L" with a "1". That means Luftschiffer-Bataillon 1 (Gardekorps) from Berlin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 February , 2015 Share Posted 7 February , 2015 Thanks Fritz. I did dip into Friedag for probable units, but nothing immediately obvious... I haven't checked the DVE's yet and might do that later. I think and hope it is the combination of the P08 and KSaA that might get somebody there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 February , 2015 Share Posted 7 February , 2015 For my eyes it is a "L" with a "1". That means Luftschiffer-Bataillon 1 (Gardekorps) from Berlin. But it is to me a double curve, so not Luftschiffer... There again, Friedag Luftschiffer mannschaften have a P08 and an Artillerie-sabel, and DVE has the same for Luftschiffer Fahnenschmied, so you could be right there! There are contradictions in the official German sources that do not help... But, like I said, the weapons are as crucial here as the uniform details! No wonder SS did not go any further!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWK Posted 7 February , 2015 Share Posted 7 February , 2015 I too see an elaborate L with a 1 underneath it. Top part of the L is very faint but it is there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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