German Uniform Photos

[4thGordons]

Just one more tonight - nice clear image here:

These men appear to be wearing corduroy (?) riding breeches with leather reinformcement (at least the chap on the right does)

He also appears to have a normal belt buckle as opposed to one with a crest on it

It is difficult to make out the numbering on their helmet covers (33?) but the card has a Landwehr postmark that appears to read:

S.D.

Bayr.Ldw.I.R.3 M C

and also appears to be dated the 4th of Novemeber 1915 (in the text) and postmarked 6th November 1915.

Am I correct in assuming Bayr. Ldw I.R.3 is Bayreuth Landwehr Infantrie Regiment 3? but what of the of the M.C.?

[trajan]

... From a small lot I was given recently: Medics/Stretcher Bearers (I am not sure of the formal distinction in German service)

This will take a bit of doing! One of the problems being the different branches of medical service that might be represented here...

I am not exactly certain of WW1 arrangements (and in the office and books at home), but immediately prior to WW1, and aside from doctors, there were KRANKENTRÄGER, some kind of medical support unit; LAZARETGEHILFEN, hospital orderlies(?)' MILITÄR-KRANKENWÄRTER, military medical attendants; APOTHEKENHANDARBEITER, chemists assistants, etc., etc....

But what is interesting are those collar patches, which I have certainly not come across before (not that I am by any means a uniform bod!). I'll have a try tonight to see if I can find out more...

Trajan

[trajan]

Just one more tonight - nice clear image here:

soldiers.jpg

These men appear to be wearing corduroy (?) riding breeches with leather reinformcement (at least the chap on the right does)

He also appears to have a normal belt buckle as opposed to one with a crest on it

It is difficult to make out the numbering on their helmet covers (33?) but the card has a Landwehr postmark that appears to read:

S.D.

Bayr.Ldw.I.R.3 M C

and also appears to be dated the 4th of Novemeber 1915 (in the text) and postmarked 6th November 1915.

Am I correct in assuming Bayr. Ldw I.R.3 is Bayreuth Landwehr Infantrie Regiment 3? but what of the of the M.C.?

The riding breeches would / could go with the buckle, as cavalrymen had the plain type of buckle, BUT although I did wonder if he was a dismounted cavalryman, given the rifle as opposed to carbine, the number on the helmet cover goes against that line of thinking.

As for the Bayr.Ldw I.R.3 MC, I have no idea as to the MC, and my limited sources indicate that Bayreuth was home to the Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment 6, not 3. Perhaps Bayr is an abbreviation for Bay[e]r[isches]? Unlikely, I know, but there was a Bayerisches Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment 3, from Augsburg/Erlangen. Do you have a legible address on that card?

Trajan

PS: Are those muzzle covers?

[JWK]

Just one more tonight - nice clear image here:

soldiers.jpg

These men appear to be wearing corduroy (?) riding breeches with leather reinformcement (at least the chap on the right does)

He also appears to have a normal belt buckle as opposed to one with a crest on it

It is difficult to make out the numbering on their helmet covers (33?) but the card has a Landwehr postmark that appears to read:

S.D.

Bayr.Ldw.I.R.3 M C

and also appears to be dated the 4th of Novemeber 1915 (in the text) and postmarked 6th November 1915.

Am I correct in assuming Bayr. Ldw I.R.3 is Bayreuth Landwehr Infantrie Regiment 3? but what of the of the M.C.?

I read their helmet-covers as "B.3"

and "Bayr.Ldw.I.R.3" would be ""Kgl. Bayer. 3. Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment", but what the "S.D`. and "M.C`could mean I can´t say without seeing the postmark first.

[shippingsteel]

Just one more tonight - nice clear image here

Indeed it is, very clear image showing great detail. I especially like the view of the muzzle cover as seen below. I have one of these just like that.

I picked it out of a bits box at a gun show. They are a well made piece of gear and the front section as shown flips up. Now I just need the G98.!

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

I read their helmet-covers as "B.3"

and "Bayr.Ldw.I.R.3" would be ""Kgl. Bayer. 3. Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment", but what the "S.D`. and "M.C`could mean I can´t say without seeing the postmark first.

So, we are agreed on Bayerisches Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment 3, from Augsburg/Erlangen? But yes, if we know who the card was sent to as well that would help!

Indeed it is, very clear image showing great detail. I especially like the view of the muzzle cover as seen below. I have one of these just like that.

I picked it out of a bits box at a gun show. They are a well made piece of gear and the front section as shown flips up. Now I just need the G98.!

Thanks for confirming my tentative query/suggestion as in post 253 SS!

Trajan

[trajan]

...KRANKENTRÄGER, some kind of medical support unit...

Here are Krankentraeger, from a BW website, on "Der deutsche Sanitätsdienst im Ersten Weltkrieg – Organisation und Struktur" (http://www.sanitaetsdienst-bundeswehr.de/portal/a/sanitaetsdienst/!ut/p/c4/NYsxD8IgEEb_0V3RxbpJuripi-JG6YVe0kIDhybGHy8Mfi95y8uHT6wE-2JvhWOwCz7QOD6Ob_hkG6DQSKmEDJ6ym9nNQnhvn4nAxUDSLBSEq32yEhNsMcnSSkmpFuAJTacG3R26_9S3v5heX9V-N5z1Dbd1Pf0AJn4XnA!!/)

They are defined on one German WK site as:

Krankenträger

Diese gehörten organisatorisch den Train-Truppen an und trugen besondere Uniformen und wurden ausschließlich im Krankenträgerdienst eingesetzt, zu dem sie im Frieden ausgebildet worden waren. Sie trugen eine sogenannte Neutralitätsbinde (weiße Binde mit rotem Genfer Kreuz) am linken Oberarm. Im Kriege bildeten sie das Personal der Sanitätskompanien. Soldaten aus der Front, Musiker und Hilfsmusiker, wurden vorübergehend zu Hilfskrankenträgern ausgebildet.

However, the guys in the photo above lack 'weiße Binde mit rotem Genfer Kreuz' = 'white bands [brassards] with a red Geneva Cross'

Trajan

[trajan]

question: does the collar insignia indicate medical corps (equivalent of the RAMC?) while the arm band indicates stretcher bearer (or the like role) but not a member of the medical corps - or something else. I must say I think it is the first time I have seen these collar insignia in a photo but then I have not looked hard.

The last picture shows another variation where the men appear to be wearing a fatigue uniform without collar insignia but sport a cross on their caps in place of the upper cockade - something also visible on the men seated around the table, and the portrait above but not, as far as I can see, on the first picture.

I think I have them - freiwilligen Krankenpflege, volunteer medical orderlies... There was a mention in one of the German texts about these guys, who seem to be working in the rear and 'back home', i.e., not at the front itself. I even found a postcard on an auction site that showed six of these well-dressed guys (pressed trousers and all!) carrying a stretcher with a 'passenger' leaning against a head support(!) in what is clearly a city, and a follow-up google revealed two Drake Goodman photographs also and a summary account - http://www.flickr.com/photos/29007475@N08/3946274196

Drake's descriptions and commentaries are usually pretty good (well, they are out somewhat with regard to the guards shown in reference to the capture of CAL Yate on SS's old Yate thread!), and this commentary here seems sound - but if necessary, there is some stuff (including books!) in German, e.g., http://www.sehepunkte.de/2014/07/24485.htmlor http://www.retrobibliothek.de/retrobib/seite.html?id=109854

Trajan

EDIT: got to dash to class, but have a look here also - https://www.flickr.com/photos/gellechimay/sets/72157631873783447

[4thGordons]

I read their helmet-covers as "B.3"

and "Bayr.Ldw.I.R.3" would be ""Kgl. Bayer. 3. Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment", but what the "S.D`. and "M.C`could mean I can´t say without seeing the postmark first.

Here is the reverse of the card showing the message and the post-marks I mentioned. It could conceivably be S.B. I suppose rather than SD

Thanks SS and Trajan for the other posts, especially those regarding the medical orderlies.

There are a couple more individual soldier pictures in the latest lot showing glimpses of bayonets and scabbards which I will scan later.

Chris

[JWK]

Looks like the stamp reads `M.G.K.` ("Machinen Gewehr Kompanie" - Machinegun company, or as Fritz Limbach would have called them "Mord Gesellen Klub")

Underneath the sender wrote his address, and I read that as M.G.K.. Also it looks like there's a third full-stop in the stamp.

"S.B." I think stands for "Standard Brief" (Standard letter - as opposed to "E.B." Eilbrief)

JW

[trajan]

These men appear to be wearing corduroy (?) riding breeches with leather reinformcement (at least the chap on the right does)

Chap on the right could just be a Supply Train man - I have come across a photo in a book of mine of a man with a Bavarian Supply Train "dressed as a mountain trooper" who has the same breeches, and same buckle, but with a carbine. I'll see if its is scanable later...

Trajan

[trajan]

PS: Are those muzzle covers?

I especially like the view of the muzzle cover as seen below. I have one of these just like that.

A little off-topic I know but saves opening another thread! As I understand it, these muzzle covers were originally, nickel-plated, but later in zinc, and by 1915 simply blued. This nickel plating was mainly for rust protection but also to shine so that the man did not fire the rifle while the cover was still attached, which is why the 1915 Anhaltpunkte zur Behandlung... recommended leaving them off entirely! Those covers for carbines, though, were apparently always browned or blued and originally did not cover the sight which meant they were often left on when the carbine was fired. I gather that a quick quarter rotation released a spring, allowing the whole thing to be removed, and that the cap could swivel back over the sight protector for firing - perhaps SS will confirm?

Trajan

[4thGordons]

Thanks JW - that looks right.

Here is another long shot - from a late war group. Plain back without writing. Only clues to unit might be cuff/collar on man on right and letters painted behind.

Here is another unit I am struggling with 133 IR is clear from shoulders and board but what is the sub-unit here?

Here is the sign extracted and with contrast tweaked: It appears to show: 23 Korp. 1 Rekr(?) Dep. Inf Reg 133. Mobil (?) 1914

Chris

[JWK]

Zu Erinnerung an unsre Ausbildung

23.Korporalschaft. 1.Rekruten Depot

Infanterie Regiment 133

Mobil. 1914

In memory/souvenir/keepsake of our training

23rd Platoon 1st Rekruten depot

Infantry Regiment 133

Mobilised 1914

[4thGordons]

And while I am scanning: This lot appear to have been going for the prize for the most unit insignia visible in one photo! Clearly stenciled picklehalben covers and nice clear collar insignia.

This one is dated 1915 and is from a Warsaw photographer. Nice clear views of Gew 88s too. There appears to be a mix of types of cartridge carriers on display.

Chris

[4thGordons]

Zu Erinnerung an unsre Ausbildung

23.Korporalschaft. 1.Rekruten Depot

Infanterie Regiment 133

Mobil. 1914

In memory/souvenir/keepsake of our training

23rd Platoon 1st Rekruten depot

Infantry Regiment 133

Mobilised 1914

Ahhhhh...... Rekruten! I could not work that out. Thanks for that.

Chris

[bierast]

Thanks JW - that looks right.

Here is another long shot - from a late war group. Plain back without writing. Only clues to unit might be cuff/collar on man on right and letters painted behind.

A[rtillerie] M[ess]t[rupp] 97 (artillery survey troop) would be my immediate guess. These were specialist flash-spotting observation units recruited from both the field and the foot artillery. The designation later changed to Lichtmesstrupp to differentiate them from sound-ranging units (Schallmesstruppen).

Here is another unit I am struggling with 133 IR is clear from shoulders and board but what is the sub-unit here?

Here is the sign extracted and with contrast tweaked: It appears to show: 23 Korp. 1 Rekr(?) Dep. Inf Reg 133. Mobil (?) 1914

I think this is a straightforward one: 23. Korporalschaft within 1. Rekruten-Depot of the Ersatz-Bataillon / Kgl. Sächs. 9. Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 133, based in the regiment's peacetime garrison town of Zwickau (my GGF's birthplace).

[4thGordons]

A[rtillerie] M[ess]t[rupp] 97 (artillery survey troop) would be my immediate guess. These were specialist flash-spotting observation units recruited from both the field and the foot artillery. The designation later changed to Lichtmesstrupp to differentiate them from sound-ranging units (Schallmesstruppen).

Wow - thank you - I didn't have very much hope with that one but that seems reasonable. - Thank you Andi

Chris

[JWK]

And while I am scanning: This lot appear to have been going for the prize for the most unit insignia visible in one photo! Clearly stenciled picklehalben covers and nice clear collar insignia.

This one is dated 1915 and is from a Warsaw photographer. Nice clear views of Gew 88s too. There appears to be a mix of types of cartridge carriers on display.

Warschau1915.jpg

Chris

Is that 1st Batallion 1. Württembergisches Landsturm-Infanterie-Regiment Nr.13 ?

From what I understand from this Genwiki page : http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/Ldst.IR_13 the 1st Batallion was numbered XIII/24

And they were in Warsaw in 1915.

[shippingsteel]

It could conceivably be S.B. I suppose rather than SD ...

It is S.B. and stands for Soldaten-Brief (which is the technical term used for the Feldpostkarten)

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

Is that 1st Batallion 1. Württembergisches Landsturm-Infanterie-Regiment Nr.13 ?

I agree, the Landsturm unit numbered 24, comprising part of the 13th Armee-Korps ...

Which was (very confusingly) known as the Landsturm-Infanterie-Regiment Nr.13 , I. Bataillon

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

... Here is another unit I am struggling with 133 IR is clear from shoulders and board but what is the sub-unit here?

That one has been answered, so just a comment on the 'all-shades-of-blue' tunics here, and the S.98 they are all wearing - to judge from the slight change in tonal quality, the chap on the extreme left would seem to have the so-called S.98 n.A.

Can't remember cuffs quite like those though...

Trajan

[trajan]

And while I am scanning: This lot appear to have been going for the prize for the most unit insignia visible in one photo! Clearly stenciled picklehalben covers and nice clear collar insignia.

This one is dated 1915 and is from a Warsaw photographer. Nice clear views of Gew 88s too. There appears to be a mix of types of cartridge carriers on display.

It is indeed a lovely photograph! I suppose strictly speaking - in view of the date - these would be Gew.88/05's? Is there anyway to tell these apart from a Gew.88 on a photograph? Remember, I don't do rifles really - they are just things to hang a bayonet on! :-) So, please excuse my ignorance here if the answer is obvious to you guys...

[shippingsteel]

The group shot in post #263 shows the men wearing Dunkelblau tunics with the Sachsen cuffs, which is not particularly surprising for a Saxon Infanterie-Regiment Nr.133

The Gew.88 rifles shown in post #265 do appear to be a later variant with the pressed-steel magazine cover, however it is impossible to tell which variant from that photo.

They could be any of the modified 88/S, 88/05 or 88/14 types. You would need to check the breech area for added charger guides and thumb cut-outs for charger loading.

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

The group shot in post #263 shows the men wearing Dunkelblau tunics with the Sachsen cuffs, which is not particularly surprising for a Saxon Infanterie-Regiment Nr.133

The Gew.88 rifles shown in post #265 do appear to be a later variant with the pressed-steel magazine cover, however it is impossible to tell which variant from that photo.

They could be any of the modified 88/S, 88/05 or 88/14 types. You would need to check the breech area for added charger guides and thumb cut-outs for charger loading.

Cheers, S>S

Thanks SS, so in other words, in most 1914-1918 period photographs it would be impossible to tell what exact type it was - except that it would be one that was modified from the original... BTW, though, by 88/S, that would be one modified for a spitzer round? Remember, I don't go into these rifle things very much but I thought the spitzer bullet required a re-barreling and this was done to all Gew.88 after 1905?

On the photograph, though, you seem to miss my point... I have read the posts and I do know that it is a Saxon unit, but what I was trying to get at here was the way that the colour of these tunics go from a very light to a very dark blue. In other words, if you saw one of these guys on an individual basis in a tunic-only shot, then if he had one of the light coloured ones on, and a cap with that clear-showing cockade, then some people might have immediately and erroneously jumped to the conclusion that this must be a Hellblau tunic and so a Bavarian! The cuffs are of-course a give-away, but even so...

TTFN

Trajan