ph0ebus Posted 12 February , 2015 Share Posted 12 February , 2015 Daniel, it does read 18. Korporalschaft = Bild = 96 But I thought Bild translates into Image as in Photograph, so that would make it Image #96.? I may be wrong. Korporalschaft is certainly the Section of troops, so that makes it Section Number 18 when translated into English. The German unit hierarchy goes like this ... Kompagnie ........ Company Zug ................... Platoon Korporalschaft ... Section Gruppe .............. Squad Cheers, S>S You may well be right re date versus Section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 12 February , 2015 Share Posted 12 February , 2015 I read that as 'Korporalschafts-Bild' and the year 1896, so a bit pre-war. Daniel, it does read 18. Korporalschaft = Bild = 96 But I thought Bild translates into Image as in Photograph, so that would make it Image #96.? I may be wrong. You may well be right re date versus Section. But single cockades were the norm until towards the very end of the 19th century... I can't quite remember when but the double cockade was introduced / ordered as from either the late 1880's or the late 1890's... The last two digits were pretty certainly either 86/87 or 96/97, although I think it was the former... I'll try and find out later where I got that from and what the date actually is ... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 12 February , 2015 Share Posted 12 February , 2015 But single cockades were the norm until towards the very end of the 19th century... I can't quite remember when but the double cockade was introduced / ordered as from either the late 1880's or the late 1890's... The last two digits were pretty certainly either 86/87 or 96/97, although I think it was the former... I'll try and find out later where I got that from and what the date actually is ... Got it - March 1897... A Kaiserheer order instructed the wearing of the national cockade above the State cockade on peaked hats and field caps, the national cockade to be placed on the right side of the pickelhaube and the State version on the left side... So, 1896 is perfectly fine for the photograph... Amazing what you can find out with a bit of 'bookish learnin' eh?! I'll try and go further with that photograph later - the uniforms seem distinctive, but I've got to dash to class in 10 minutes... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 12 February , 2015 Share Posted 12 February , 2015 How about this....they certainly look to be military - but only appear to have one cockard on their hat? I have taken the liberty of re-posting the picture so that we know where we are! Well, as you will know from above, no problem with the single cockade - exactly the opposite as it supports an 1896 date. BUT there is not as much detail as one would have liked for analysis, although there is a hint of a number on some of those shoulder tabs... However, the basic uniform colour looks to be the (in)famous Bavarian 'hellblau', although in German works the term 'dunkelblau' was used for any style of uniform tunic that was not Feldgrau! The cockades are large, which is another characteristic of (but not exclusive to) Bavarian uniforms. I am guessing that they are infantry from the dark (and so red) colour of the hat bands and the lack of piping above and below these, because as far as I can determine, other units that had a similar dark colour hat band with no piping did not have Brandenburg cuffs. I am also guessing red collars, and red Brandenburg cuffs with a light colour (white?) piping. So, as I have interpreted it, then on the information available to me, all these things put together suggest the distinct possibility, but no more, that these are members of one of the regiments in the I Bayerische Armee Korps - although certainly not the Kgl. Bayer. Infanterie-Leibregiment, as they had Swedish cuffs... Now turn it over and read the back....!!! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 12 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 12 February , 2015 Ha - sorry no identifying unit marks the back of this one. Just a penciled name? perhaps corresponding the seated man with a pencil cross on his chest (seated to the left of the table as we look with his hand on the stein) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 12 February , 2015 Share Posted 12 February , 2015 I wondered about that cross on that chap... I reckon he's a "Clemens ???" What's the 'johanxxx" above left? We need a verlusten expert - they might help here, if the chap was called up and wounded or copped it: and ID here should confirm if he is a Bayern or not. A verlusten expert would certainly help also with the 4 guys who were killed by the bombing raid in the Balkans... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWK Posted 12 February , 2015 Share Posted 12 February , 2015 Clemens Schanderl Quite a few of the Schanderls who áre in the Verlustliste are from Bayern. edit: Looks like Schanderl is a Bavarian name (from : christoph.stoepel.net/geogen/en/Default.aspx ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 22 February , 2015 Share Posted 22 February , 2015 ...So, a possibility... Might this be some kind of medical orderly badge? See e.g, this on your post of a German medic group no.17: medi 02.jpg or this on a German medic at at http://www.gwpda.org/photos/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=2&pos=22 medic 01.jpg Note also the strange shoulder tabs on that marching (?) officer on your post no. 11. Well.a good guess as to those two - but I have since discovered that those collar tabs on overcoats with the single vertical stripe indicate an unteroffizier or serjeant... The 'Ottoman' three-striped guy's tabs remain a mystery... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 23 February , 2015 Share Posted 23 February , 2015 This is just the centre of a much bigger group pic - Mostly civilians but a groups of uniformed/ bemedalled types at one end (cropped out of the image I posted) Could be veterans (or recruits - would post war vets still have worn pickelhalben?) - but that is why I wanted to ID the flag Chris Any chance of the larger view of post 185? I still think veterans ... and the flag is very similar to that Kyffhäuserbund der deutschen Landeskriegerverbände, a Maltese Cross with a circular centre, although the centre of the Kyffhäuserbund flag had a view of the Kyffhäuser monument in the centre (well, until 1934, when it was replaced with a hakenkreuz). If you have access to inter-library loan, you might get an answer via a copy of Abzeichen und Auszeichnungen deutscher Kriegervereine 1800 – 1943 by Jörg Nimmergut, Battenberg Gietl Verlag, 2012 (ISBN-10: 3-86646-093-7 or ISBN-13: 9783866460935). This seems to be the only book on the subject... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 23 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 23 February , 2015 Thanks - I will dig it out and rescan for you. You may be correct but I think Stahlhelm would have been more likely among post war veterans but I'll post the entire image when I can. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 23 February , 2015 Share Posted 23 February , 2015 Thanks - I will dig it out and rescan for you. You may be correct but I think Stahlhelm would have been more likely among post war veterans but I'll post the entire image when I can. Chris There's the rub! Post war or not? The wiki-blurb says they began as early as early as 1786 so this could be immediately before or during WW1 photograph. IF the uniform and medal details are clear enough then we can get somewhere - inshallah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 23 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 23 February , 2015 OK so I trimmed bottom and top (grass/sky) to allow for max size. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 23 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 23 February , 2015 a little more detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 24 February , 2015 Share Posted 24 February , 2015 Thanks! OK so I trimmed bottom and top (grass/sky) to allow for max size. That is some photograph! large-detail1.jpg A red-tabbed general who appears to be missing his lower left arm... I thought at first he was holding a black coat over his arm, but the way his sleeve falls, with what seem to be cuff buttons there, makes me think he has lost part of his arm. But why is he there and not at the centre? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 24 February , 2015 Share Posted 24 February , 2015 That general - I am pretty certain that he has a wound badge! That is the only badge that I know off worn that low on the tunic! But it appears to be black, which is for one or two wounds received in the field... I am not certain of the original 1918 regulations, but I am pretty sure that the WW2 regulations that for something like the loss of an arm a man would get a silver, so that needs checking. Even so, if a wound badge it gives a terminus post quem for the photograph - the Verwundetenabzeichen was instituted 3. März 1918 so it must be after that... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 3 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 3 March , 2015 Do the white equipment belts and braces here have any significance? The image is undated and with no indication as to location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 4 March , 2015 Share Posted 4 March , 2015 First response... Some kind of parade set-up? They all have fixed S.98's on their rifles. Nurses or maids in the background? It looks to me as if they are wearing Vereinfachte Uniform, so if so, the picture is after AKO 03 March 1915. Garde stripes everywhere, on Swedish cuffs, so Garde-fusiliers or G.R.z.F? And they look reasonably smart, save the chaps with ciggies in mouth or hand... I'll see if I can find out more later... Trajan PS: quick thought - should have added that these 'Garde' need not be Prussian: IIRC, some of the Württembergisches units had these garde stripes and Swedish cuffs; and can't recall off hand if other states had them also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 4 March , 2015 Share Posted 4 March , 2015 A quick search before class starts improves my knowledge a bit, as it seems that the carrying straps, belt, etc., were collectively known as Koppeltragegestell. Originally in undyed 'natural' leather, then blackened, but of white examples I have not found any... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritz Posted 4 March , 2015 Share Posted 4 March , 2015 Maybe old stocks. A pic of Garde-Grenadier Regiment 1 Kaiser Alexander shows white "Koppeltragegestell"of the blue uniform time. Fritz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierast Posted 4 March , 2015 Share Posted 4 March , 2015 PS: quick thought - should have added that these 'Garde' need not be Prussian: IIRC, some of the Württembergisches units had these garde stripes and Swedish cuffs; and can't recall off hand if other states had them also. The same style of cuffs and Litzen was worn by the Saxon Grenadiere, specifically: Kgl. Sächs. 1. (Leib-)Grenadier-Regiment Nr.100 [AKA LGR 100 - the royal 'lifeguard' regiment; shoulderstraps bore the monogram of the reigning Saxon monarch - 'FA' in WW1] Kgl. Sächs. 2. Grenadier-Regiment Kaiser Wilhelm, König von Preußen Nr.101 [AKA GR 101 - had the Kaiser as honorary Chef; shoulderstraps bore the imperial monogram. The regiment was therefore often referred to as the Kaisergrenadiere within the Saxon Army] Grenadier-Reserve-Regiment Nr.100 [AKA GRR 100 or RGR 100 - the only reserve infantry regiment outside of the Prussian Garde to bear a title other than simply 'Infanterie'. The regiment was formed at mobilisation in August 1914 from reservists of LGR 100 and GR 101. Uniform was identical to the 'active' Grenadiere, but with a number '100' on the shoulderstraps and obviously 'R100' on the helmet cover.] There were also some oddities such as Brigade-Ersatz-Bataillon Nr.45, which was formed from Grenadier reservists and continued to wear Grenadier uniform even after absorption by Ersatz-Infanterie-Regiment Nr.23. A lot of other units initially raised and kitted out by the Grenadier depots also went into the field with many men wearing the Litzen, but were evidently ordered to remove them later. Note that although Grenadier-Landwehr-Regiment Nr.100 [AKA GLR 100] were honoured with the Grenadier title they did not get the Litzen and therefore wore regular Saxon infantry uniform with '100' on the shoulderstraps and 'L100' on the helmet cover. Thus it is usually easy to distinguish between LGR 100, GRR 100 and GLR 100 in photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 4 March , 2015 Share Posted 4 March , 2015 Maybe old stocks. A pic of Garde-Grenadier Regiment 1 Kaiser Alexander shows white "Koppeltragegestell"of the blue uniform time. Very good point! The same style of cuffs and Litzen was worn by the Saxon Grenadiere, specifically:... Thanks Andi - I knew they were not restricted to Prussians but beyond that I was uncertain. Fritz, Andi, have I nailed the tunic right? Vereinfachte? I am a learner in such matters! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritz Posted 4 March , 2015 Share Posted 4 March , 2015 Fritz, Andi, have I nailed the tunic right? Vereinfachte? I am a learner in such matters! No Trajan, it isn´t. The "Vereinfachte" has no "Ärmelpatten". You can see the difference in the photograph. Fritz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierast Posted 4 March , 2015 Share Posted 4 March , 2015 Fritz, Andi, have I nailed the tunic right? Vereinfachte? I am a learner in such matters! No Trajan, it isn´t. The "Vereinfachte" has no "Ärmelpatten". You can see the difference in the photograph. Fritz To clarify both points, here is a group of Saxon Grenadiere from the Ersatz-Bataillon of GR 101 in Dresden in autumn 1915. Note the difference between the older unsimplified Waffenrock (worn by the Unteroffizier and Gefreiter) and the freshly-issued vereinfachte version (worn by the others). Note also the older style of Litzen worn by the Unteroffizier and the shorter wartime style. It appears that the Saxon vereinfachte Waffenrock retained the red piping on the bottom tunic edge and the square-cut pocket flaps on the back, although we are still looking for definite photographic evidence of the latter. http://www.royalsaxonarmy.co.uk/images/GR101_1915Ersatz2.jpg http://www.royalsaxonarmy.co.uk/images/GR101_1915Ersatz2_bk.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 5 March , 2015 Share Posted 5 March , 2015 Fritz, Andi - many thanks to both of you! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 14 April , 2015 Author Share Posted 14 April , 2015 Thanks to all for the contributions so far. I have mostly exhausted the original lot - however I have been given a few more and have also recently purchased some more German images to add to my photos. A few (with questions) to follow: From a small lot I was given recently: Medics/Stretcher Bearers (I am not sure of the formal distinction in German service) The first is a group showing red cross brassards as standard: it is undated, and unmarked apart from a small cross in biro and the annotation "Vater" also in biro (in an older shaky hand) on the back. The next two photos show what appear to be red cross collar insignia, which are not present on the first image. This is undated and not written on but appears to have a photographer's mark of Max Natusch, Luckau (Lausitz) Fernsprecher Nr 228. This is undated but has a lot of writing on the reverse but I am struggling to make sense of it. The red cross armband appears to show an official stamp on it also. question: does the collar insignia indicate medical corps (equivalent of the RAMC?) while the arm band indicates stretcher bearer (or the like role) but not a member of the medical corps - or something else. I must say I think it is the first time I have seen these collar insignia in a photo but then I have not looked hard. The last picture shows another variation where the men appear to be wearing a fatigue uniform without collar insignia but sport a cross on their caps in place of the upper cockade - something also visible on the men seated around the table, and the portrait above but not, as far as I can see, on the first picture. This card was sent from Breslau on the 30th of June 1916 to a Fraulein Kopp in Hamburg (again I am struggling to read the script) I assume these last are medical staff not patients (the German equivalent of the hospital blues appears to be a striped cotton pajama type outfit) working on a hospital train (I am assuming NKENW. 19 is "Krakenwagen No19" Is the other writing a unit designation or, as it appears to be, a date 21/6/1917? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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