ph0ebus Posted 7 February , 2015 Share Posted 7 February , 2015 I concur... L 1 is what I see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 8 February , 2015 Share Posted 8 February , 2015 Coming back to it after a good nights sleep and (more importantly!), no wife and kids around this early in the morning, yes, I too see what Fritz was on to - Luftschiffer. I checked with the 1899 Moritz and those schwedische Ärmelaufschläge and kragen litzen are spot on, and they wear a Tschako. And here is an actual matching pair of those shoulder thingies posted at: https://www.weitze.net/detail/59/Preussen_Paar_Schulterklappen_Mannschaft_feldgrau_Luftschiffer_Battaillon_Nr_1__219459.html So, it's a choice between one of the Luftschiffer mannschaften or the Luftschiffer Fahnenschmied - and as it now stands forensic analysis seems to have brought us a long way from that original ID. And if correctly identified, then a rather rare photograph! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 8 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 8 February , 2015 Well thanks for all this! I am still trying to get my head around it. I have a bayonet picture saved up for you Julian.....will scan it now! Chris Edit Don't see much to ID the unit on - but a rather fearsome spiky thing on his Gew 88 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 8 February , 2015 Share Posted 8 February , 2015 Thank you! One of my favourite bayonets - I have four! The good old S.71! No, not a lot to go on re: the uniform - although the belt buckle looks like it might be distinctive. Incidentally, one surprising thing that I have learnt from Storz's M98 book is that between 1914-1915, some front-line units were forced to relinquish their Gew.98's and were provided with Gew.88's and 88/05's instead, so as to let new troops in the rear learn how to use the Gew.98... Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 8 February , 2015 Share Posted 8 February , 2015 ... I too see what Fritz was on to - Luftschiffer. Tried a bit of computer playing and re-angled those shoulder tabs to confirm that they matched the ones in the photograph... And we have - to compare with Yep, I'm convinced! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 8 February , 2015 Share Posted 8 February , 2015 Hi all, I believe I may have posted this on the forum before, but I cannot find where or when, and I just want to make sure there is nothing else that can be gleaned from this picture. This picture was in with my grandfather's pictures from the war. It is unlabeled. I know only this: the stripes on the collar are called 'Litzen'; they indicate that he was a member of a guard, grenadier or Leib regiment. Does the uniform tell you anything else? -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 8 February , 2015 Share Posted 8 February , 2015 ... I know only this: the stripes on the collar are called 'Litzen'; they indicate that he was a member of a guard, grenadier or Leib regiment. Does the uniform tell you anything else? Quick one as I'm to make dinner... Litzen are normally indeed as you indicate, but the more I look into this it don't seem that simple! The tunic looks to be a 1915 Bluse - 1916 if Bavarian! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritz Posted 8 February , 2015 Share Posted 8 February , 2015 Tried a bit of computer playing and re-angled those shoulder tabs to confirm that they matched the ones in the photograph... And we have - post-14525-0-49874600-1423321308.jpg to compare with flipped angle.jpg Yep, I'm convinced! Trajan Perfect, Trajan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritz Posted 8 February , 2015 Share Posted 8 February , 2015 Hi all, I believe I may have posted this on the forum before, but I cannot find where or when, and I just want to make sure there is nothing else that can be gleaned from this picture. This picture was in with my grandfather's pictures from the war. It is unlabeled. I know only this: the stripes on the collar are called 'Litzen'; they indicate that he was a member of a guard, grenadier or Leib regiment. Does the uniform tell you anything else? -Daniel The cocade ist not clear to see. Where did he come from? He is a private. He wears a black "Mützenband", so Artillery, Pioneer or Verkehrstruppen. Did you look into the "Verlustliste", if he was a casualty at any time? Perhaps his unit is mentioned. A difficult case. Kind regards Fritz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 8 February , 2015 Share Posted 8 February , 2015 Hi Fritz, I don't know who this is or where he was from. My operating assumption (wild speculation, really) is that this is my grandfather's brother Hermann, who I know served and hailed from Fulda. His other brother Simon also served but I know what he looked like, so I know it is not him. I have no known photos of Hermann as a point of comparison. I would think he is family, at the least...why else keep his picture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 10 February , 2015 Share Posted 10 February , 2015 the Luftschiffer has the Guard Litzen because he got his training at the Guard barracks at Berlin Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 10 February , 2015 Share Posted 10 February , 2015 Do folks think these two are the same person or different people? I realize one is in profile vs. portrait but this is the best I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritz Posted 10 February , 2015 Share Posted 10 February , 2015 Viewed from different positions a person will change its appearance and you believe it is another one. But a good chance are the ears. They will never change. Fritz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierast Posted 10 February , 2015 Share Posted 10 February , 2015 My attention was drawn by the buckles in previous shown posts. The colour of the buckles is reversed, that was only with Saxon buckles. RJB 25, RJB 26 and Fusilier Rgt nr.108 'Prinz Georg' had the horn on the shoulder straps, they were the only regiments wearing a shako with the 'hair crest' on it. Just spotted this one - the photo in the post dated 30 December 2014 - 06:55 PM indeed shows a Vizefeldwebel of Reserve-Jäger-Bataillon Nr.26. On Saxon belt buckles (including unique regimental models for IR 107 and SR 108) see: http://www.das-koppelschloss.de/sachsen1.htm All Saxon Jäger and Schützen units wore the Saxon Tschako and the hunting horn above the numerals on their shoulder straps (though note the uniform of the Schützen-Regiment was not otherwise completely identical to that of the Jäger battalions). In peacetime these units comprised: Kgl. Sächs. 1. Jäger-Bataillon Nr.12 Kgl. Sächs. 2. Jäger-Bataillon Nr.13 Kgl. Sächs. 3. Jäger-Bataillon Nr.15 * Kgl. Sächs. Schützen (Füsilier)-Regiment Prinz Georg Nr. 108 * JB 15 was absorbed by the newly raised IR 181 in 1900; only the regimental band of IR 181 retained any Jäger tradition (by being a purely brass band). In wartime the following additional Saxon Jäger battalions existed: Reserve-Jäger-Bataillon Nr.12 Reserve-Jäger-Bataillon Nr.13 Reserve-Jäger-Bataillon Nr.25 Reserve-Jäger-Bataillon Nr.26 As well as the two organic cyclist companies belonging to each of the peacetime Jäger batttalions, the following independently numbered Saxon cyclist companies existed. At least the first named of the two definitely wore Saxon Jäger uniform. Radfahrer-Kompanie Nr.58 Radfahrer-Kompanie Nr.204 In August 1914 surplus reservists of SR 108 and IR 182 were used to form Brigade-Ersatz-Bataillon Nr.46 (part of 19. Ersatz-Division). The two companies (3. and 4. Komp.) kitted out by the depots of SR 108 wore the uniform of that regiment (including the number '108'!). This did not change until the provisional battalions of the Saxon ersatz division were grouped into regiments in late February 1915. Ersatz-Infanterie-Regiment Nr.23 then absorbed Brig. Ers. Batl. 45 (which was formed from reservists of the two Grenadier regiments and wore Litzen on collar and cuffs) and 46. The regimental history and available photographic evidence show that EIR 23 continued to have two companies uniformed as Grenadiere, three as Schützen and the remainder regular infantry; the different rank titles for private soldiers were also retained on a company-wide basis. To my amazement I recently discovered photographic evidence that shoulderstraps with a hunting horn and '23' were worn (to at least some extent) by the Schützen companies of EIR 23 - see attachment! We also have a couple of photos from the formation of IR 431 (which was formed in October 1916 with contributions from EIR 23, 24 & 32) in which the Schützen uniform (including Tschako) is still in evidence, but we are fairly confident that the 'tradition' was not retained in that regiment. However since there is no regimental history of IR 431 we cannot be certain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 11 February , 2015 Share Posted 11 February , 2015 261.jpg Don't see much to ID the unit on - but a rather fearsome spiky thing on his Gew 88 Coming back onto this one... When you have a chance would you please try and get a closer view of those buttons and the belt buckle? TIA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 11 February , 2015 Share Posted 11 February , 2015 Just spotted this one - the photo in the post dated 30 December 2014 - 06:55 PM indeed shows a Vizefeldwebel of Reserve-Jäger-Bataillon Nr.26. On Saxon belt buckles (including unique regimental models for IR 107 and SR 108) see: http://www.das-koppelschloss.de/sachsen1.htm Andi, That's great information to have - how did you accumulate it all? Many thanks for sharing with all of us, and also for that link to Saxon buckles - I have been wanting something like that for ages! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 11 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 11 February , 2015 Coming back onto this one... When you have a chance would you please try and get a closer view of those buttons and the belt buckle? TIA! How's this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 11 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 11 February , 2015 Of course this may help! (reverse) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 11 February , 2015 Share Posted 11 February , 2015 OK, so he is presumably Bavarian! A quick look, but I can't find a lot on the Bav. 6th Reserve Division. Your chappie does seem to have piping on his cuffs, which might allow him to be tied down a bit more... His name seems clear enough, though, Joseph Fuerst, so something might come up from that angle - assuming, of course, the sender and subject are the same, which seems likely! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierast Posted 11 February , 2015 Share Posted 11 February , 2015 That's great information to have - how did you accumulate it all? Many thanks for sharing with all of us, and also for that link to Saxon buckles - I have been wanting something like that for ages! It's a pleasure to share, and to spread my knowledge of the Königliche Sächsische Armee - hence also the upcoming book (in which JB 13, RJB 25, RJB 26 and SR 108 all feature). I've been collecting specifically Saxon photos and postcards for years, and my friend and co-author in Dresden has a collection which absolutely dwarfs mine. Even so, we are still making new and unexpected discoveries on a regular basis. That website is great, and covers all models of the German Koppelschloss (from both world wars). The uniquely Saxon regiment-specific belt buckles can often be spotted in wartime photos, e.g. this one of machine-gunners from IR 107 in early 1915: http://parispigalle.co.uk/royalsaxonarmy/images/IR107_MGK_1915.jpg The supply of all the unique Saxon accoutrements was obviously a logistic problem, especially when units were operating away from the major Saxon formations and their associated supply chain. Wartime photos show occasional use of Prussian belt buckles, and the odd Saxon infantrymen wearing a Prussian tunic (but with correct Saxon shoulderstraps, cockade etc.). One of the diarists in my co-author's collection of unpublished primary sources mentions that after hospitalisation in a Prussian Feldlazarett he returned to his unit in a newly issued Prussian tunic (with 'Brandenburg' cuffs). The rarity of such photos suggests that Saxon units generally took a dim view of this sort of thing. Ultimately of course Saxony began to issue the plain universal Feldbluse from late 1915 (and didn't even make their own national variation on it like the Bavarians) which did away with such problems, making Saxon units increasingly difficult to identify as such in photos by 1917-1918. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 11 February , 2015 Share Posted 11 February , 2015 It's a pleasure to share, and to spread my knowledge of the Königliche Sächsische Armee - hence also the upcoming book (in which JB 13, RJB 25, RJB 26 and SR 108 all feature). Thanks again for your input - and looking forward to the book(auf deutsch?) Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierast Posted 11 February , 2015 Share Posted 11 February , 2015 Thanks again for your input - and looking forward to the book(auf deutsch?) We would dearly love to produce a German version, but for now it is in English: http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/Fighting-the-Kaisers-War-Hardback/p/6120?aid=1133 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 11 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 11 February , 2015 How about this....they certainly look to be military - but only appear to have one cockard on their hat? Chris This is written below the image: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 12 February , 2015 Share Posted 12 February , 2015 I read that as 'Korporalschafts-Bild' and the year 1896, so a bit pre-war. Re: Korporalschafts, I found this: "One of the things that comes up frequently is the organization at the lowest level and the multitude of group pictures found on German postcards. A German platoon was made up of 8 Grüppen, each of eight to 10 men. A group of two Grüppen was known as a Korporalschaft. A Korporalschaft was led by an Unteroffiziere." From: https://www.flickr.com/groups/commissionrifle/discuss/72157632157246670/ -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 12 February , 2015 Share Posted 12 February , 2015 Daniel, it does read 18. Korporalschaft = Bild = 96 But I thought Bild translates into Image as in Photograph, so that would make it Image #96.? I may be wrong. Korporalschaft is certainly the Section of troops, so that makes it Section Number 18 when translated into English. The German unit hierarchy goes like this ... Kompagnie ........ Company Zug ................... Platoon Korporalschaft ... Section Gruppe .............. Squad Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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