Moonraker Posted 8 November , 2016 Share Posted 8 November , 2016 This has been thoroughly debated in the past, and in Skindles we have discussed the costs incurred by charities when raising funds. I won't repeat what I said in earlier posts, save to sAY that the event made a VERY big impression on the public at large and that it must have cost a lot to put on. But I am disappointed about the figures released in the weekend press and would have liked to see a larger proportion of the money raised go to the RBL. Moonraker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 8 November , 2016 Share Posted 8 November , 2016 The project needed a major investment of serious money in order to continue. The investment company B&Y was approached to find an investor. They found an investor willing to put up that cash. If it had all gone wrong and he lost everything, no-one would be expressing any sorrow for him. I don't see why anyone should risk money in enabling a huge and insecure project to proceed and not get a return on his or her investment. My question would be whether the return is proportionate in the circumstances. I would also query why the project seems to have been at risk of going adrift when its fixed costs (clay, metal, studio space, staff requirements) should have been known before it even started. It was always known that investors were going to get a return on their money as well as charities benefiting. In return the public got a fabulous and effective display which has been talked about, seen by millions across the world and has raised the profile of the Great War. Those who bought poppies (and I was one) paid a fixed price fully aware of the fact that some of the cost would not be going to charity and I’m not overly bothered that a proportion of that went to someone who took a financial risk to enable the whole thing to happen. I am not childish and I was not in a state of wild anticipation or excitement. Nor am I fool easily parted from money. I chose to spend a specific sum and buy a piece of history which is also quite decorative and sits happily with other stuff in our spare bedroom. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger H Posted 8 November , 2016 Share Posted 8 November , 2016 Gwyn has eloquently expressed my thoughts (and actions) exactly. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 8 November , 2016 Share Posted 8 November , 2016 Mine too. I find it rather odd that we live in a society where making a profit seems to be such a Bad Thing when it's made in return for a (not un-negligible) risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 8 November , 2016 Share Posted 8 November , 2016 (edited) Thank you, Roger and Steven! Edited 8 November , 2016 by Dragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 8 November , 2016 Share Posted 8 November , 2016 7 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said: Mine too. I find it rather odd that we live in a society where making a profit seems to be such a Bad Thing when it's made in return for a (not un-negligible) risk. There were a lot of capitalists that made profit out of war!!! but that's ok then following your argument! Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 8 November , 2016 Share Posted 8 November , 2016 OK. Let's see. Artist has idea for splendid memorial 'event', which will commemorate the fallen in a sensitive, attractive and, frankly, spectacular way in one of the most iconic settings in the world (and I don't think that's an exaggeration). This will cost millions to do properly. Artist needs funding - not a few quid, but a few million. Dirty capitalist (boo, hiss) comes along and offers to fund this. As a capitalist (boo, hiss) he realises that the event might be a complete horlicks, but he invests his millions to get it going. In return, he wants a profit. Event is spectacularly successful. Millions of people from around the globe visit. Thousands of people around the globe buy the Poppies at the end of it. Millions of pounds are distributed to services charities. Thousands of people have a beautiful long-lasting keepsake, through which they can, if they choose, remember ecery day. Millions of people have photos, video, etc, of the event. Capitalist (boo, hiss) makes a profit. Capitalist (boo, hiss) pays tax on profit. I struggle to see the problem. Of course, it could all have been funded by the State, in which case we'd probably still be waiting for someone to arrange a committee to decide on the colour of the poppies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 8 November , 2016 Share Posted 8 November , 2016 (edited) Ok lets see... Millions of men live in rat invested trenches in unbearable conditions fighting for their country, and some being shot by their own leaders, one of whom was well rewarded at the wars end for his "efforts" Industrialist sit in their boardrooms in safety making millions on the back of the slaughter of humanity that WW1 was.. .. The fact that someone is still making millions a hundred years later on the backs of the millions of young men that lie under the sod in a foreign field.....well that's ok...he'll pay tax on it! I'm sorry...but I find this a very skewed view of whats right and wrong... Ah well! I have a different view of humanity which seems to differ from the "as long as there is profit in it" view of other posters time to bow out and find someone with sense of right from wrong to converse with... regards Tom Edited 8 November , 2016 by towisuk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 8 November , 2016 Share Posted 8 November , 2016 I think the point being made is that money was needed for the project. Is it not right that the backer get his money back? The UK did not give a 'land for heroes' when the alive men, some really badly wounded. came home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 8 November , 2016 Share Posted 8 November , 2016 2 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said: OK. Let's see. Dirty capitalist (boo, hiss) comes along and offers to fund this. As a capitalist (boo, hiss) he realises that the event might be a complete horlicks, but he invests his millions to get it going. In return, he wants a profit. Capitalist (boo, hiss) makes a profit. Capitalist (boo, hiss) pays tax on profit. I struggle to see the problem. Of course, it could all have been funded by the State, in which case we'd probably still be waiting for someone to arrange a committee to decide on the colour of the poppies. A very mature response which suggests that your analytical skills are on par with the quality of your 'humour'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 8 November , 2016 Share Posted 8 November , 2016 (edited) I agree with Steven. Anyone who embarks on any war-centric venture with a commercial side, even such as writing books about the Great War, is hoping to make some money from her or his efforts and investment. I don't think that investing and sponsoring a display of poppies equates in any way to selling arms to Saddam Hussein, which really is making money out of warfare. Edited 8 November , 2016 by Dragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 9 November , 2016 Share Posted 9 November , 2016 10 hours ago, MelPack said: A very mature response which suggests that your analytical skills are on par with the quality of your 'humour'. Always happy to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Mackenzie Posted 9 November , 2016 Share Posted 9 November , 2016 I don't know whether or not the production, distribution or other costs were reasonable but surely no one in their right mind would expect them to be produced for free. I was happy to buy a Tower poppy knowing that some of the proceeds would go to a good cause, some would pay for the costs of production and distribution and some would probably go as profit to someone or other. If I wasn't happy with that then I wouldn't have paid out the money. The charities involved got the funds with minimal effort on their part and, unlike their own fund raising activities, at absolutely no risk to themselves. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Regiano Posted 13 November , 2016 Share Posted 13 November , 2016 Whilst I have no problems with the so-called "capitalistic" slant, I think I would draw the line at this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WW1-Ceramic-Poppy-/282251094473?hash=item41b779e9c9%3Ag%3AHdYAAOSwXeJYJFl3&nma=true&si=v8%2BNqUu6VaYapmlDYPWcKriYk5w%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 No tax to pay either Tom (towisuk) Reg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 13 November , 2016 Share Posted 13 November , 2016 I understood that Ebay was going to embargo selling of these poppies for profit. (The listing started at £50.) I have reported it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonraker Posted 14 November , 2016 Share Posted 14 November , 2016 Too late, I'm afraid. There were twenty bids, the highest being £304 ... Moonraker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 14 November , 2016 Share Posted 14 November , 2016 OK. Let's see. Dirty chancer (boo, hiss) comes along and decides to purchase on a speculative basis. As a chancer (boo, hiss) he realises that the event might be a complete horlicks, but he invests on a speculative basis. In return, he wants a profit. Chancer (boo, hiss) makes a profit. Chancer (boo, hiss) pays tax on profit. I struggle to see the problem. Flawless logic eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Filsell Posted 14 November , 2016 Share Posted 14 November , 2016 Much heat, little light. I was dissapointed that more did no go to causes dear to many of us, but without the poppy nothing would have gone to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 14 November , 2016 Share Posted 14 November , 2016 (edited) I reiterate...if everyone was feeling so generous with their money in "Remembrance"....why not stick it in a British Legion Poppy tin..??? Oh ..hang on,,,there's no profit in trying to sell a standard BL poppy on Ebay. £304 is a nice little earner..I'm sure the lads scattered in the battlefields are sleeping better under the sod, realising their sacrifice means there's a nice little profit for in it for someone ..even a hundred years later...! Tom Edited 14 November , 2016 by towisuk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 14 November , 2016 Share Posted 14 November , 2016 54 minutes ago, towisuk said: I reiterate...if everyone was feeling so generous with their money in "Remembrance"....why not stick it in a British Legion Poppy tin..??? You don't actually know how much any of us also gave to the RBL poppy appeal privately. And as that year I also gave a substantial amount of food to our local food bank and I paid for a lot of new blankets to be delivered to Syrian refugees, because I choose to support charities in addition to this particular one, I think I am entitled to make the choice to buy a piece of history in the form of a ceramic poppy without having to be guilt tripped about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trev2386 Posted 14 November , 2016 Share Posted 14 November , 2016 12 minutes ago, Dragon said: You don't actually know how much any of us also gave to the RBL poppy appeal privately. And as that year I also gave a substantial amount of food to our local food bank and I paid for a lot of new blankets to be delivered to Syrian refugees, because I choose to support charities in addition to this particular one, I think I am entitled to make the choice to buy a piece of history in the form of a ceramic poppy without having to be guilt tripped about it. Hear hear. Trev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 15 November , 2016 Share Posted 15 November , 2016 Sorry - that sounded like self-promotion about how wonderfully generous I am. It wasn't meant to come across like that, but I was annoyed. Might as well say that [fill in any name] who writes books about the war is making a 'nice little profit' out of the sacrifice of men scattered as corpses across the battlefields. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 15 November , 2016 Share Posted 15 November , 2016 Calm down ,dear, I think it was taken as you meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonraker Posted 15 November , 2016 Share Posted 15 November , 2016 11 hours ago, towisuk said: ....I'm sure the lads scattered in the battlefields are sleeping better under the sod, realising their sacrifice means there's a nice little profit for in it for someone ..even a hundred years later...! 8 hours ago, Dragon said: ... Might as well say that [fill in any name] who writes books about the war is making a 'nice little profit' out of the sacrifice of men scattered as corpses across the battlefields. The "Ceramic-Poppy-on-eBay" case is an extreme example, but as I probably pointed out elsewhere in this long, long thread, many people have profited from war. Leaving aside those who made fortunes out of producing and selling munitions and stores, some of us here buy militaria, including medals, some of which were awarded at the expense of great human sacrifice. And what about those involved with war films, notably those actors whose participation in war was limited to appearing before a camera in uniform? Moonraker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Wood Posted 15 November , 2016 Share Posted 15 November , 2016 On 11/13/2016 at 14:24, Dragon said: I understood that Ebay was going to embargo selling of these poppies for profit. (The listing started at £50.) I have reported it. Why should ebay bar people from selling a second-hand poppy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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