Knotty Posted 3 May , 2018 Share Posted 3 May , 2018 Morning NF Very easy, just to keep the thread moving. Correct on all counts, I’m always surprised that the tunnellers did not recieve more accolades for the part they played. I do have a sneaky suspicion that it was something to do with both their background, and recruitment process from the early days due to the influence of Norton-Griffiths. ( my thoughts only not looking for controversy!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neverforget Posted 3 May , 2018 Share Posted 3 May , 2018 4 minutes ago, Knotty said: Morning NF Very easy, just to keep the thread moving. Correct on all counts, I’m always surprised that the tunnellers did not recieve more accolades for the part they played. I do have a sneaky suspicion that it was something to do with both their background, and recruitment process from the early days due to the influence of Norton-Griffiths. ( my thoughts only not looking for controversy!!) They were certainly subjected to a certain resentment by some, on the grounds that they received better pay than yer actual tommies. There was also the aspect of them not being considered as "proper soldiers". Proper soldier or not, Hackett's citation is most touching, and records an act of extreme and considered bravery and self sacrifice: "For most conspicuous bravery when entombed with four others in a gallery owing to the explosion of an enemy mine. After working for 20 hours, a hole was made through fallen earth and broken timber, and the outside party was met. Sapper Hackett helped three of the men through the hole and could easily have followed, but refused to leave the fourth, who had been seriously injured, saying," I am a tunneller, I must look after the others first." Meantime, the hole was getting smaller, yet he still refused to leave his injured comrade. Finally, the gallery collapsed, and though the rescue party worked desperately for four days the attempt to reach the two men failed. Sapper Hackett well knowing the nature of sliding earth, the chances against him, deliberately gave his life for his comrade". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knotty Posted 3 May , 2018 Share Posted 3 May , 2018 (edited) The memorial at Givenchy to him has a large T shape cut into it, and it is said that if you look the at the join of the T it indicates approximately the position on the surface in the field where directly beneath is Hackett’s tomb. I took a photo but can anyone corroborate this? Edited 3 May , 2018 by Knotty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neverforget Posted 3 May , 2018 Share Posted 3 May , 2018 24 minutes ago, Knotty said: The memorial at Givenchy to him has a large T shape cut into it, and it is said that if you look the at the join of the T it indicates approximately the position on the surface in the field where directly beneath is Hackett’s tomb. I took a photo but can anyone corroborate this? Can't help with that one but I see that the memorial was designed by one Peter Barton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knotty Posted 3 May , 2018 Share Posted 3 May , 2018 It is true, found this link to show that was the design feature. http://www.tunnellersmemorial.com/memorial-details/ I take it that yours is the one at Mexborough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neverforget Posted 3 May , 2018 Share Posted 3 May , 2018 4 minutes ago, Knotty said: It is true, found this link to show that was the design feature. http://www.tunnellersmemorial.com/memorial-details/ I take it that yours is the one at Mexborough Yes indeed I have mistakenly posted a picture of the Mexborough Hackett memorial. The one that you have posted is the one designed by Peter Barton, and dedicated, I believe to both men who lost their lives there, rather than just Hackett. This from wiki: In Givenchy-lès-la-Bassée, the Tunnellers Memorial commemorates the action on 26 June 1916 for which Hackett was awarded the Victoria Cross. The memorial stands at the site of the Shaftesbury Shaft and the Red Dragon Crater. Its dimensions, 3.9 feet (120 cm) high and 2.6 feet (80 cm) wide, mirror the standard interior proportions of mine galleries constructed by the tunnelling companies in the Flanders clays. The memorial was designed by Peter Barton and unveiled on 19 June 2010. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fattyowls Posted 3 May , 2018 Share Posted 3 May , 2018 (edited) I took a photo too, roughly front on. Givenchy has a lot of interest for me in particular; there is the 55th (1st West Lancs) Division memorial to the epic defence of the village in April 1918, the Tunnellers Memorial and a group of soldiers from May and early June 1940 in the communal cemetery, including the Earl of Coventry. Edited 3 May , 2018 by Fattyowls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neverforget Posted 3 May , 2018 Share Posted 3 May , 2018 15 minutes ago, Fattyowls said: I took a photo too, roughly front on. Givenchy has a lot of interest for me in particular; there is the 55th (1st West Lancs) Division memorial to the epic defence of the village in April 1918, the Tunnellers Memorial and a group of soldiers from May and early June 1940 in the communal cemetery, including the Earl of Coventry. Yet another great photo Pete, and just to confirm, the memorial is to ALL tunnellers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle George Posted 3 May , 2018 Share Posted 3 May , 2018 Who are these chaps ? ? ? (On topic) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fattyowls Posted 3 May , 2018 Share Posted 3 May , 2018 Wild guess but is that John Norton-Griffiths (quoted on the memorial) in the centre? Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fattyowls Posted 3 May , 2018 Share Posted 3 May , 2018 And if that is the case, would the five officers be those of the 170th Tunnelling Company? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle George Posted 3 May , 2018 Share Posted 3 May , 2018 23 minutes ago, Fattyowls said: Wild guess but is that John Norton-Griffiths (quoted on the memorial) in the centre? Pete. Sorry, no. 13 minutes ago, Fattyowls said: And if that is the case, would the five officers be those of the 170th Tunnelling Company? Wrong nationality, I fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scorer Posted 3 May , 2018 Share Posted 3 May , 2018 3 hours ago, Knotty said: Morning NF Very easy, just to keep the thread moving. Correct on all counts, I’m always surprised that the tunnellers did not recieve more accolades for the part they played. I do have a sneaky suspicion that it was something to do with both their background, and recruitment process from the early days due to the influence of Norton-Griffiths. ( my thoughts only not looking for controversy!!) I'm pretty sure that I was once told that they didn't receive many bravery awards because the authorities didn't want to draw any attention to them, as the very work of tunnelling was secret. The VC to Sapper Hackett treated differently given his actions, although I'm not sure whether he was identified as a tunneller when the award was announced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neverforget Posted 3 May , 2018 Share Posted 3 May , 2018 Is it Oliver Woodward and co? I.E. 1st Australian tunnelling company. (Beneath Hill 60 fame.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neverforget Posted 3 May , 2018 Share Posted 3 May , 2018 28 minutes ago, The Scorer said: I'm pretty sure that I was once told that they didn't receive many bravery awards because the authorities didn't want to draw any attention to them, as the very work of tunnelling was secret. The VC to Sapper Hackett treated differently given his actions, although I'm not sure whether he was identified as a tunneller when the award was announced. That's a good point that hadn't crossed my mind. Good post 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle George Posted 3 May , 2018 Share Posted 3 May , 2018 3 minutes ago, neverforget said: Is it Oliver Woodward and co? I.E. 1st Australian tunnelling company. (Beneath Hill 60 fame.) it is indeed. Image from here: http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2008/12/24/2454301.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neverforget Posted 3 May , 2018 Share Posted 3 May , 2018 Watched the film not too long ago. In fact you beat me to the post (not unusually) as the recent train of thoughts led me to think about posting Woodward if I could find him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle George Posted 4 May , 2018 Share Posted 4 May , 2018 Who's this then ? ? ? Robertson might have written his biography. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knotty Posted 4 May , 2018 Share Posted 4 May , 2018 Morning UG By some very astute observations by myself I would say he’s ......American Off to see what I can find, although I don’t give it much hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle George Posted 4 May , 2018 Share Posted 4 May , 2018 3 minutes ago, Knotty said: Morning UG By some very astute observations by myself I would say he’s ......American Off to see what I can find, although I don’t give it much hope. Yes; I thought about cropping that belt buckle ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fattyowls Posted 4 May , 2018 Share Posted 4 May , 2018 (edited) He looks a bit like James McPherson, but since he was killed at Atlanta in 1864 it's clearly not him. Just ignore me. Just returning to Hill 60 and Australian tunnellers, the article is 'interesting' in the light of a current thread about media reporting from down under (if you'll pardon the pun). Woodward's company didn't dig the Hill 60 and Caterpillar mines, they were already dug and charged when they took over, having been constructed by British and then Canadian tunnellers. Keeping them safe and ready for seven months prior to detonation was no mean feat and deserving of recognition, and I think of all of them, French, British, Canadian and Australian with awe when I'm at Hill 60 and the Caterpillar. As has been pointed out elsewhere any programme which has 'forgotten' in the title should immediately sound alarm bells, and the conclusion in the article as to why they are forgotten is for me complete and utter b******ks. Having got that off my chest, here is the result of all of the tunnellers handiwork. The first photo of the Hill 60 hole is mine, the second is by Major Marilyne and is sullied by a man in serious need of a haircut. What it does have is some members of the public in the background to give a proper sense of scale..... Edited 4 May , 2018 by Fattyowls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle George Posted 4 May , 2018 Share Posted 4 May , 2018 Marvellous photographs Pete. And I share your sentiments. (I've been following 'Anzackery') I am reminded of a passage in George MacDonald Fraser's 'Quartered Safe Out Here' (1992), his memoir of his service in the Fourteenth Army. He writes of his sense of "isolation, the sense of back of beyond. Perhaps that came, in part, from being called 'the Forgotten Army' - a colourful newspaper phrase which we bandied about with derision; we were not forgotten by those who mattered, our families and our country." This is not quite the same as 'forgotten' in the sense I think you mean: but any excuse to quote or promote GMF must be grabbed with both hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knotty Posted 4 May , 2018 Share Posted 4 May , 2018 Hi Pete Remember when the Caterpillar looked like this circa 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fattyowls Posted 4 May , 2018 Share Posted 4 May , 2018 (edited) UG, my dad was 14th Army late on in the war so they are never forgotten in these parts. I've also got a lot of time for Bill Slim, who I've seen described as pound for pound the finest British general of WW2. As for the photos they illustrate a lot of points, most notably that hair almost long enough for a pony tail on a man my age is just wrong. The two craters are very close together but look completely different.... This image is either IWM or AWM I can't remember. I've always put the difference down to the amount of looser spoil being greater on the Hill 60 side and it ending up back in the crater, although you can still see a lot of it in the railway cutting. There's another IWM image that I've seen of Hill 60 taken from Observatory Ridge which really illustrates how dominating the northern banked edge was. Because of the trees you can't see anything much today, it's a bit like Verdun in microcosm in that respect. John, I think I prefer the Caterpillar slightly more open, I think you get a better sense of scale. Edited 4 May , 2018 by Fattyowls Directionally challenged description Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle George Posted 4 May , 2018 Share Posted 4 May , 2018 (edited) GMF briefly examines how the phrase 'Forgotten Army' originated. He thinks the inspiration may have been "the song 'My Forgotten Man', sung by Joan Blondell in the film 'Gold Diggers of 1933', which refers to American ex-servicemen of the Great War." Edited 4 May , 2018 by Uncle George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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